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1087144 Posts in 71990 Topics- by 19239 Members - Latest Member: Hackercraft792
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Question: I identify as...
non-white - 12 (10.8%)
female - 7 (6.3%)
LGBTQ - 8 (7.2%)
differently-abled - 7 (6.3%)
non-native-English-speaking - 14 (12.6%)
none of the above - 63 (56.8%)
Total Voters: 93

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Author Topic: Diversity on TTF  (Read 4730 times)
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« Reply #40 on: Oct 11, 2016, 11:16AM »

 Good!
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BassCase

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« Reply #41 on: Oct 11, 2016, 11:59AM »

Thanks Sam for your words of reason and wisdom.  Sane words for an increasingly(and I believe in some cases deliberately) polarized world.  Cheers.
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« Reply #42 on: Jan 08, 2017, 11:39AM »

I just noticed this...

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There are several people here venting their rage that "diversity" is a concept or even mentioned.

There must be some personal experience where your life or career has been derailed unfairly because of diversity?
No.

I personally have defied the "diversity" meme on every level of my career. I have played in primarily white bands, primarily black bands, primarily latin bands...and...best of all, bet on it...totally mixed bands for almost 50 years in NYC at the highest levels of accomplishment. All I have to say is that it is the totally mixed bands...the bands that hire according to only one quality (great musicality)...are the ones where the real thing happens.

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Let's hear them.  Show me there's more to this that the word salad we've heard so far.

Names, places... give us some facts about how you personally have been affected.
Go look at my resume.

Why would I have any reason on earth to complain because of how I have "personally...been affected?"

My complaint has to do with inferior musicians...black, brown or beige, male, female or "other"...being hired because of some PC notion of "inclusion."

Get with the program, robcat.

The musical program.

Give people equal opportunity at the beginning levels of education and then cherry-pick the best ones for further advancement. There's no other way to get things done.

Do you think that Miles Davis chose Gil Evans...or later, Bill Evans...over many other competing black musicians because of some sort of reverse PC ethos?

Get real.

He chose them because they were the best available in their field at the time.

Get real.

It works both ways.

Bet on it.

S.


So, short version...  you personally have been quite a beneficiary of people being open to diversity and yet don't want anyone talking about the concept.

Yeah, that makes sense.




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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #43 on: Jan 10, 2017, 10:17PM »


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So, short version...  you personally have been quite a beneficiary of people being open to diversity and yet don't want anyone talking about the concept.

Yeah, that makes sense.

In my experience, "talking" about diversity only deepens the problem. Talk is cheap. So are laws supposedly enforcing diversity. What happens is that legislated "diversity" actually cheapens the system on which it is being applied. Only achievement should be rewarded. Achievement and the honest desire to learn. There was no talk about "diversity" when Thad Jones and Mel Lewis started their band. The only talk was about who could best do...and wanted to do...the job. Ditto in the NYC latin scene. No one hired Barry Rogers because he was of Irish/Jewish ascent; he was hired because he could do the job better than anyone else. No one hired Joe Wilder and Victor Paz...the two Jackie Robinsons of the NYC mainstream, working music scene...because they belonged to some sort of minority ethnicity. They were hired because they were flat-out the best at what they did.

Ron Paul on so-called "diversity" pretty well sums up my own position. (Emphasis mine):

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Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than individuals. Racists believe that all individuals who share superficial physical characteristics are alike: as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. Their obsession with racial group identity is inherently racist. The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence, not skin color, gender, or ethnicity.

Ron Paul, Government and Racism, April 16, 2007

If one believes (as do I, on extensive personal experience) that intelligence, honesty, talent and work ethic are evenly distributed amongst all races, cultures, creeds etc...then rewarding achievement will of its own effects promote "diversity."

If on the other hand some set of legislated racial quotas is imposed, all that happens is that the level of achievement within that particular field is inevitably mediocritized. Free up the monies needed to provide a good education for all people and the cream of the crop...of all colors...will rise to the top.

S.

P.S. This goes equally strongly to sexual discrimination. In my world, if you can do the job better than anyone else immediately available...the whole job, including dealing with other musicians in a manner that promotes great music...then you have the job no matter to which of the 7+ sexes you may belong.

P.P.S. By the way...I have "profited" only musically from his idea. I have actually lost a great deal of work because of legislated, PC bullsh*t and sheer, boneheaded racism.

Bet on it.
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Visit <http://samburtis.com/>. Lots of information on that site in the form of articles plus a link to my method book "Time, Balance & Connections-A Universal Theory Of Brass Relativity" which includes several chapters of the book.
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« Reply #44 on: Jan 11, 2017, 05:43AM »

I think it makes sense to look at the diversity of a group.  If it turns out to be one sided, we should be curious as to whether we are making it uncomfortable for the others to join.

We may be subtly discouraging them, whoever they may be, and that would be bad.

Or, we may be quite inclusive, and what we offer just isn't of interest to them. 

I usually attend ETW/ATW each March, the big trombone conference in DC.  The audience tends to be overwhelmingly white, male, and long past eligible for AARP.  (I fit that demographic myself.)  I think that should be a concern. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #45 on: Jan 11, 2017, 10:01AM »

I want to point out that this is a very diverse group here.  We have tenor trombone players, bass trombone players, alto trombone players, and even people who play lesser instruments.  ;-) ;-) ;-)
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