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The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningHistory of the Trombone(Moderator: bhcordova) Boosey and Co. "Olds" model trombones.
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Author Topic: Boosey and Co. "Olds" model trombones.  (Read 3018 times)
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Stewbones43

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« on: Aug 28, 2016, 09:38AM »

While digging for some information on another topic here, I discovered that Boosey and Co. made some trombones in around 1926, which were sold as "Olds" models They were "large bore" 12.3mm/0.484in.

Does anyone know about these and was there a link to FE Olds trombones?

Cheers

Stewbones
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Sporto

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« Reply #1 on: Dec 31, 2016, 09:15AM »

I would guess they're tuning-in-slide models.  That's all Olds made till around that time.
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Stewbones43

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« Reply #2 on: Dec 31, 2016, 03:25PM »

No, these were made by Boosey and Co in the UK but were called "Olds" models.

Intriguing!

Cheers

Stewbones
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Bellend

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« Reply #3 on: Jan 03, 2017, 12:36PM »

Hi Stewbones,

Did you get your original info from this? Brasswind Manufacturing at Boosey & Hawkes, 1930-59
Arnold Myers

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« Reply #4 on: Jan 03, 2017, 01:56PM »

Hi Stewbones,

Did you get your original info from this? Brasswind Manufacturing at Boosey & Hawkes, 1930-59
Arnold Myers

BellEnd

They are mentioned in this paragraph--but it says that none survive. 

The American influence was, however, felt in the design of orchestral and dance band
instruments. From 1925 the Instrument Books record the production of a model designated
“Olds Trombone,” but the lack of a surviving example makes it impossible to determine the
extent of American influence. The plans and blueprints in the archives contain a number
of drawings of instruments, many noted as items in for repair or to be copied. Drawings
survive of a Buescher Grand trombone in Bf (1925), Olds trombones (1933, 1935), a Conn
large-bore tenor trombone with rotary valve (1933), a Buescher “Bach trumpet” (1931), and
Vincent Bach trumpets (1922 and 1936) and a cornet. These may have influenced the
transition to wider-bore trumpets and trombones in the post-war era. The post-war
re-design included mouthpieces: the archives contain detailed drawings for a range of
Kosikup model mouthpieces dating from 1947 and mostly initialled “A.B.”
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Stewbones43

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« Reply #5 on: Jan 03, 2017, 04:44PM »

Hi Guys, thanks for the input.

I got the info from here http://homepages.ed.ac.uk/am/gdsj.html

If you scroll down the serial numbers on the left hand side to 125588, that is the first mention of the "Olds" model I have seen. Then 125592, 125830, 126097 ("Imperial") and 126548 (also "Imperial")

I originally wondered if any of the "Olds" specialists such as JohnL might know something.

Cheers

Stewbones
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Euphanasia

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« Reply #6 on: Jan 03, 2017, 05:01PM »

I'm interested in knowing what one of the terms means. They went to the polisher, and several months later, to the plater, but in-between they went to the grinder. The grinder? I can see from a brief internet search that this is some sort of machining job that's done in the UK, but I can't figure out what it is.

{126097} (B♭ trombone; stamped on bell “Large Bore / CLASS A” / trumpet-and-banner trademark incorporating “TRADE MARK” and “BOOSEY” / “BOOSEY & CO. LTD. / MAKERS. LONDON / 126097 / British Throughout / IP / Imperial Model”).
According to the firm's archives [instruments books], the instrument was made by Craven.
Polisher, H. Owen; grinder, Stretton; plating “all over”, Simmons.
“Olds Trombone IP”.
Given out 15 Apr 1926; received 16 Aug 1926; given to polisher 14 Jun 1926; to grinder 17 Aug 1926; plating 21 Sep 1926; charged to Regent Street 3 Nov 1926.
Paid Craven for batch of 11 (126089-99), 212 hrs @ 1/11½d = £20/15/2 charged to Regent Street.
[ Private collection, Britain ]
Earliest trombone surviving stamped “Imperi
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JohnL
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« Reply #7 on: Jan 03, 2017, 07:07PM »

It's hard to say exactly when the first non-TIS Olds trombones appeared. The Self-Balancing is mentioned in the 1927 catalog, but not the 1925, so it's possible they were in production in 1926.

Curious that Mr. Myers would write that none survive. The Galpin Society data (http://homepages.ed.ac.uk/am/gdsj.html) lists a few. Here is record for one such instrument in the Edinburgh University Collection:
http://images.is.ed.ac.uk/luna/servlet/detail/uoeart~2~2~50321~102282

Note that the engraving makes no mention of "Olds"; apparently, it was only an internal designation.

Looking at the picture of the trombone in Edinburgh, nothing there screams "Olds" to me. It's single bore (Olds trombones of that era were typically dual-bore). Unlike Olds horns of that era, it has a tenon locknut. Also, said locknut is on the bell section; when Olds did start using locknuts a several years later, they were on the slide section. There's other details that are decidedly not "Olds-like".

I notice that the museum description mentions that the tuning slide inners are tapered on the ID. Could that have been a feature copied from an early Self-Balancing Olds? Does anyone know if earlier Boosey & Co. trombones incorporated that feature? Could it have been some other Olds-inspired feature that led to that designation (one-piece inner slides, for example)?

Anyone in the UK in a position where they might be able to examine the instrument and report back?
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Stewbones43

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« Reply #8 on: Jan 04, 2017, 03:43AM »

Thank you, Gentlemen. There is more to be learnt about these trombones and the other instruments mentioned by Bach, Beuscher and Conn.

I could do with spending a couple of days studying the old work-books of B&H/Besson now archived in the Horniman Museum in London or visiting the Edinburgh University Museum.

Cheers

Stewbones
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 04, 2017, 05:53AM »

Thank you, Gentlemen. There is more to be learnt about these trombones and the other instruments mentioned by Bach, Beuscher and Conn.

I could do with spending a couple of days studying the old work-books of B&H/Besson now archived in the Horniman Museum in London or visiting the Edinburgh University Museum.

Cheers

Stewbones

The part of the Edinburgh collection you'd want to see in the Reid Concert Hall is currently closed until further notice due to building work in the area.  They do say they are hoping to get all the instruments together under one roof in St Cecilia's hall but no mention of a timescale.

Ronnie
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Stewbones43

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« Reply #10 on: Jan 04, 2017, 07:00AM »

The part of the Edinburgh collection you'd want to see in the Reid Concert Hall is currently closed until further notice due to building work in the area.  They do say they are hoping to get all the instruments together under one roof in St Cecilia's hall but no mention of a timescale.

Ronnie

Thanks Ronnie, I wasn't planning an imminent visit. I would have to convince my wife that a 900mile round trip to learn something about a 90 year old trombone is of great importance. It could take a while :(

Cheers

Stewbones
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Nanook

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« Reply #11 on: Jan 04, 2017, 07:17AM »

Thanks Ronnie, I wasn't planning an imminent visit. I would have to convince my wife that a 900mile round trip to learn something about a 90 year old trombone is of great importance. It could take a while :(

Cheers

Stewbones

I might be able to talk my wife into a trip such as that, but I would have to turn over my wallet and allow her to shop the entire time I was on my mission...It would get expensive.... :)
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BGuttman
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« Reply #12 on: Jan 04, 2017, 08:37AM »

You guys in England still talk miles?  I thought you went Metric.  [Sorry for the sidebar.]
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ronnies
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 04, 2017, 09:01AM »

You guys in England still talk miles?  I thought you went Metric.  [Sorry for the sidebar.]

And in Scotland.  :-)

We are metric except for road distances. No idea why.

Ronnie
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Stewbones43

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« Reply #14 on: Jan 04, 2017, 09:26AM »

And in Scotland.  :-)

We are metric except for road distances. No idea why.

Ronnie

Simple, 900 miles seems much shorter than 1448.415 kilometres

You guys in England still talk miles?  I thought you went Metric.  [Sorry for the sidebar.]

No, it's only the government that have gone metric  :D We would have to recalibrate all the odometers on our cars to read in Kilometres. Try to make sure that the US doesn't go down the metric route because it would be more difficult for you as you would have to learn how to spell "Kilometre" correctly. :/ Embarrassed!

Cheers

Stewbones
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« Reply #15 on: Jan 04, 2017, 09:32AM »

Don't know about that.  My car is a Volvo and I can change the display to Kilometers or Miles depending on what's appropriate.

Note that our neighbors to the North (Canada) are Metric and measure in Kilometers.  US cars that are sold into Canada have to be Metric.

Also, it's legal to use Metric measurements in the US.  Has been since the 1960s.  We just choose to use our English system. ;-)
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Stewbones43

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« Reply #16 on: Jan 04, 2017, 09:55AM »

Don't know about that.  My car is a Volvo and I can change the display to Kilometers or Miles depending on what's appropriate.


 Amazed Wish I could afford a car that could do that! My car is a Renault and I can't get that to think in Kilometres when I take it to France on holiday.

Cheers

Stewbones
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« Reply #17 on: Jan 04, 2017, 10:02AM »

Try to make sure that the US doesn't go down the metric route because it would be more difficult for you as you would have to learn how to spell "Kilometre" correctly. :/ Embarrassed!

Cheers

Stewbones

I think the US military is completely metric but they got round the spelling problem by calling them 'klicks'. ;-)

Ronnie
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« Reply #18 on: Jan 04, 2017, 04:59PM »

The part of the Edinburgh collection you'd want to see in the Reid Concert Hall is currently closed until further notice due to building work in the area.  They do say they are hoping to get all the instruments together under one roof in St Cecilia's hall but no mention of a timescale.

Ronnie

St. Cecilias's is set to be finished with all the exhibits reinstalled by May of this year. Edinburgh will be hosting the joint AMIS/Galpin Society meeting in June, should anyone be interested in knocking around with a gaggle of instrument nerds for a few days.
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