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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-Chat(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) NFL football; I'd like to see a new league thank you very much....
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Arrowhead99
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« Reply #20 on: Oct 04, 2016, 02:54PM »

Why would San Jose need an NFL team with two already in such close proximity (San Francisco and Oakland)? Columbus in surrounded by NFL teams - Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh are all within a couple hours drive.

The NFL is very reluctant to place a team too close to an existing franchise - not just geographically, but demographically.

Washington and Baltimore are about an hour from each other, and they both have teams.
Columbus is 2 hours between either Cleveland and Cincinnati, and from what I can gather, has about double the population than those cities. 
S.F. and Oakland are relatively next to each other and they both have teams, and reportedly San Jose has a bigger population than both those cities.
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« Reply #21 on: Oct 04, 2016, 03:57PM »

For what it's worth, the Niners play in San Jose now:



And the Raiders are looking for a cheap ticket out of town.

 Way cool
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« Reply #22 on: Oct 05, 2016, 07:34AM »

Thanks Andy. I'm gonna have to go with LSU....
And here's why.
http://www.nola.com/recruiting/index.ssf/2015/07/lsu_freshman_donte_jackson_run.html
...and that's just one example.....if you can name one player on the Browns who runs faster than this, I'll retract my statement, thanks.
Look at recruiting sites.  Look at the number of high school athletes that supposedly run 4.2-ish 40s.  Then watch, on T.V. with professionals, the NFL Combine.  That quantity of fast times does NOT happen.  Most numbers put out by high schools and colleges are full of $#!+.

Come on,
Andy
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Andrew Elms
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« Reply #23 on: Oct 05, 2016, 09:00AM »

Watch CFL or Arena League.
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« Reply #24 on: Oct 05, 2016, 09:07AM »

Washington and Baltimore are about an hour from each other, and they both have teams.
Columbus is 2 hours between either Cleveland and Cincinnati, and from what I can gather, has about double the population than those cities. 
S.F. and Oakland are relatively next to each other and they both have teams, and reportedly San Jose has a bigger population than both those cities.
Those are both legacy situations resulting from mergers. Even though the AAFC Colts shut down after one year in the NFL, Baltimore was established as an NFL city with a very strong fan base, so they got a new team soon thereafter. Later, after the "new" Colts left, the "old" Browns moved in to take their place (though that did take a few years).
San Francisco and Oakland are a more straightforward case - though San Francisco has lost the 'Niners to San Jose (Santa Clara, to be more precise).

I do wonder if the lack of an NFL team in Columbus might be due, in part, to the perception the it is a college football town. There was an NFL team in Columbus during the very early days of the league, but it shut down in 1926.

Actually, the situation in Ohio is partly the result of mergers, too. The Browns came out the the old AAFC and the Bengals came from the AFL. When the "old" Browns left Cleveland, the NFL wasted very little time in giving the city a new team (once again - an established "NFL city" with a strong fan base).

It's kinda strange how it turned out. When the NFL was formed, there were five teams from Ohio (Akron, Canton, Columbus, Cleveland, and Dayton). None of those teams survived into the 1930's.
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« Reply #25 on: Oct 05, 2016, 09:12AM »

You will notice that the NFL doesn't really do well in towns with strong College programs.  And Columbus qualifies.

People who love college football really aren't interested in the NFL for a variety of reasons.  Mostly because there are so few cases of the unexpected happening.

In the Northeast we have Hartford, CT which is a large city near another large city in Massachusetts (Springfield) and they have not had much success with professional teams.  Mainly because they are between Boston and New York, which are major players.
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« Reply #26 on: Oct 05, 2016, 09:29AM »

You will notice that the NFL doesn't really do well in towns with strong College programs.  And Columbus qualifies.

People who love college football really aren't interested in the NFL for a variety of reasons.  Mostly because there are so few cases of the unexpected happening.

In the Northeast we have Hartford, CT which is a large city near another large city in Massachusetts (Springfield) and they have not had much success with professional teams.  Mainly because they are between Boston and New York, which are major players.

Hartford doesn't deserve a professional team.  They couldn't even build a stadium on time for the Double AA Hartford Yard Goats.  In their inaugural season the Goats spent the entire year on the road.
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« Reply #27 on: Oct 05, 2016, 09:55AM »

What could a new league really offer that would displace the fans enthusiasm for the NFL?

The NFL seems to be a successful operation that can't be beaten.  Even the recurring incidents of murder, rape and permanent brain-damage haven't done much to threaten its dominance.

BTW, ever wonder why workplace safety regulations don't apply to the NFL?

Well, they do, but they don't.
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« Reply #28 on: Oct 05, 2016, 10:38AM »

Then watch, on T.V. with professionals, the NFL Combine. 

Yeah, I'm not sure what the performance premise even is:

Quote from: The Internet
There are 15,588 senior student athletes playing football. 256 of those athletes will be drafted into the NFL. That's 1.6% of all NCAA seniors playing football that get drafted.

The top 1.6% of college players suddenly get fat and slow and play bad football because ... they aren't in Columbus anymore?

Also, the original poster already has a 2nd tier developmental league of football to watch and enjoy, it's called college football. How could a corporate entity create something new that could compete with a huge, long-established league that doesn't pay the players ... and still runs at a significant loss?

 ;-)
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« Reply #29 on: Oct 05, 2016, 10:52AM »

I'll break this down by quotes so my responses will be easier to read (and some of these have already been covered by others, so I'll skip those):

Quote
1) the NFL draft doesn't make any sense. The popular logic is that the higher the draft pick, the better the future of the draftee, right? Not really. Usually, it just means going to a crappy team, and all of a sudden carrying the burden of trying to uplift a team/city that has fallen into a habit of mediocrity (Cleveland *cough*)

The way the draft is set up is about the only logical way to do it.  The worst teams have the most available options to build a better team, but are poorly managed by the front offices, so even if they get good talent in the draft, they don't do a good job of taking advantage of free agency or trades to build a good team around that talent. 

Quote
2). Not enough teams. Look at the top 25 most populated cities in the U.S. and there's quite a few that don't have an NFL team (San Jose, San Antonio, Columbus, etc.)

This one has been addressed already, but to further the points that others have made, let me say this: as a born-and-raised Nebraskan, I'd love to see an NFL team in Omaha, but I can honestly say that it would never last because our allegiance is to the Huskers, and if anything came in and even tried to steal the Huskers' thunder, it'd be run out of town in a hurry.  College football is a religion here, and I'd assume that places like Columbus are the same way.  Most of the places that don't have an NFL presence now don't have one because establishing one would be difficult at best, or it'd be a (probably losing) battle against another sports franchise that already has a foothold.

Quote
3) An exaggerated sense of regionalism. In college football a student-athlete is affiliated with the university FIRST. A lot of schools recruit from their own backyard, etc. In the NFL players really have no connection with the location of the team that they play for, other than the fact that they play for them. In the old days before players got paid millions of dollars, players had full time jobs and lived in regular neighborhoods just like everyone else and could often been seen mowing the lawn, etc.


That's the nature of professional sports.  The athletes follow the money wherever it takes them.  There's not as much regional loyalty as you'd think in college football, either.  Using Nebraska as an example again, we have a lot of guys from California (and more on the way), Texas, Florida, etc., and some of the biggest names in Nebraska's high school football programs are getting offers from out of state schools and taking them.  Also, there's no telling how true or how prevalent all those rumors of "$100 handshakes" SEC recruiters are extending to recruits are, but where there's smoke, there's probably fire. 

Quote
5) Dissipated rivalries. A lot of NFL teams play a so-called rivalry twice during the regular season, and have the possibility of playing a third time if they meet again in the playoffs. (in 2010 and 2014 the Ravens and Steelers played each other three times). In college football a rivalry usually happens ONCE, on rare occasion twice.

That's because there are much fewer teams in the NFL, and they have a longer season.  Most college schedules have 3 non-conference games and 9 conference games a year, so there's no possibility of playing anyone in your conference more than once, and you don't even play everybody in your conference in any given year.  In the NFL, most rivalries are divisional, there are only 4 teams per division, and divisional games are the biggest factor in playoff seeding, so it makes sense that they'd play each other twice during the regular season.  

Quote
6) The career of a potential player in the NFL is usually given a go-ahead by TV analysts, before the player even puts on a uniform. Mel Kiper Jr., analyst for ESPN, is well known for putting certain players on a pedestal (sometimes well deserved, sometimes not). His pick on his "big board" sways public opinion and often can "doom and gloom" a player's future in the NFL. Again, sometimes his picks are pretty accurate, but sometimes not.

This happens in college too.  It's not as publicized since college football doesn't have a draft, but a lot of the big name high school players are getting airtime for making their decision for where to play, and now a lot of the kids are even producing their own selection videos.  Now the heavily-recruited high school kids are almost as hyped as the top college players.

Quote
7) Too slow to adapt to change. How often do you hear an NFL commentator say the phrase "spread offense?" I haven't heard it once, but they will say "zone read," which is an element of the spread offense! (Fun fact: about 75%-90% of high school football teams in Texas run a version of the spread offense)

I know this one was addressed, but regarding the zone read in the NFL, I agree with what Andy said earlier.  San Francisco ran it successfully for one season when Kaepernick started his first season for the 49ers, then the next year defenses adapted to it.  Other than that, I think maybe I've seen Carolina run it with Cam Newton with some success, but I honestly can't think of any other good examples.  You need a QB who is more threatening running the ball than he is passing to really make the zone read work, and that's not the prototypical NFL quarterback.  Also, going back to the point of whether LSU or Cleveland's RBs have better 40-yard dash times, ask yourself where the RBs in the NFL came from.  Obviously age catches up with everyone, but they shouldn't lose any speed between college and the pros, and the really fast guys who didn't go to the NFL after college weren't good enough.  Speed doesn't necessarily equal talent.

Quote
8) Wooden NFL commentators. Enough said. i won't even go into the names....

I don't pay a lot of attention to the commentary, but I've had more beef with college commentators.

Quote
9) Not-so-great looking uniforms that have been not-so-great looking for a long time....
Cincinnati Bengals
Washington Redskins
Cleveland Browns
NY Jets
Houston Texans
Denver Broncos (what's with that stupid looking horse?!?)

The uniforms are another thing I don't pay much attention to.  You could give my favorite team pink uniforms, and as long as they played well, I wouldn't care. 

Quote
10) NFL regular season games really don't mean very much. This is why a team that barely makes .500 can reach the playoffs.

That's very rare, though, and that depends entirely on how good the division is.  If you're in a better division, every game definitely matters.  In a weaker division, not so much.  The same is true in college football if you're in a conference with a championship.  You can lose several games and still win the conference if you're in a weak division and can win one game against the other divisional champion.

Quote
11) NFL games are just missing that *spark*. Every week I'll see at least one really good college football game. I can't even remember the last time I"ve seen a good NFL game. Let me think about that one....

I've seen several this season, but to be fair, I do find college football more exciting.  I am a college football fan first and foremost (not surprisingly), but there's plenty of good football to be watched in the NFL too. 
« Last Edit: Oct 05, 2016, 03:55PM by Blackthorne » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: Oct 05, 2016, 12:08PM »

The statement about college and pro football not being able to co-exist in the same city is utter non-sense.  Houston is the home of the Texans, the Rice Owls and the Houston Cougars (both of which are NCAA  Division I Football Bowl Subdivision teams.)  Dallas is home to the Cowboys, the SMU Mustangs, and the TCU Hornfrogs (both NCAA Division I Football Bowl Subdivision teams.)  All of these teams have huge fan bases.
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« Reply #31 on: Oct 05, 2016, 12:19PM »

Texas also has High School football stadiums that seat more than Rice...  Maybe not the best market to compare for the rest of the country.  Football is religion down there.

History is somewhat important.  There is no way Green Bay would get an NFL franchise if the league disappeared and the whole thing started over.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #32 on: Oct 05, 2016, 01:26PM »

The statement about college and pro football not being able to co-exist in the same city is utter non-sense.  Houston is the home of the Texans, the Rice Owls and the Houston Cougars (both of which are NCAA  Division I Football Bowl Subdivision teams.)  Dallas is home to the Cowboys, the SMU Mustangs, and the TCU Hornfrogs (both NCAA Division I Football Bowl Subdivision teams.)  All of these teams have huge fan bases.

I wouldn't say that any of those college football teams have huge fan bases.  The largest stadium of the 4 teams you mentioned (Rice Stadium) seats about 47,000 people.  By comparison, Ohio Stadium in Columbus seats about 105,000, and Memorial Stadium in Lincoln seats about 86,000. 

TCU and Houston have probably picked up some fans with their recent success, but I doubt they're still anywhere even in the same league as a lot of P5 schools.
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« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2017, 03:16AM »


The way the draft is set up is about the only logical way to do it.  The worst teams have the most available options to build a better team, but are poorly managed by the front offices....
If they are poorly managed, what would be the benefit of a really good player going to that team, from the player's standpoint? 

That's the nature of professional sports.  The athletes follow the money wherever it takes them.  There's not as much regional loyalty as you'd think in college football, either.  Yes, but at least college players attend the school.  

That's because there are much fewer teams in the NFL, and they have a longer season. 
Which is why I advocated a bigger league
 In the NFL, most rivalries are divisional, there are only 4 teams per division, and divisional games are the biggest factor in playoff seeding, so it makes sense that they'd play each other twice during the regular season.  
Or they could just organize the divisions differently to prevent that from happening.

This happens in college too.  It's not as publicized since college football doesn't have a draft, but a lot of the big name high school players are getting airtime for making their decision for where to play, and now a lot of the kids are even producing their own selection videos.  Now the heavily-recruited high school kids are almost as hyped as the top college players.
Pretty good point here. At the same time, a college student has a choice of where to go. An NFL draft player doesn't have many options.

I know this one was addressed, but regarding the zone read in the NFL, I agree with what Andy said earlier.  San Francisco ran it successfully for one season when Kaepernick started his first season for the 49ers, then the next year defenses adapted to it.  They've adapted to seeing it, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't work anymore otherwise teams wouldn't be using it at all.

I don't pay a lot of attention to the commentary, but I've had more beef with college commentators.
Why is that?
 
The same is true in college football if you're in a conference with a championship.  You can lose several games and still win the conference if you're in a weak division and can win one game against the other divisional champion.
That's true, however a team like that won't make it to the college football playoff.

I've seen several this season, but to be fair, I do find college football more exciting.  I am a college football fan first and foremost (not surprisingly), but there's plenty of good football to be watched in the NFL too. 
okay, sounds good
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« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2017, 03:26AM »

I question whether you actually read the webpage or not.

Nowhere does the website claim that Poe was born in Baltimore. In fact, it quite explicitly states that he was born in Boston, e.g.

and

What the website does claim—a claim amply documented by Poe scholars such as William Bittner (1962), James Hutchison (2005), Arthur Quinn (1941), Una Pope-Hennesy (1934), et al.—is that Poe claimed Baltimore as his natal city.

What the chronology on the webpage clearly demonstrates is that Poe's residency in Baltmore, as well as his association with the city, was significantly greater and more extensive than the "two or three years" you claimed for him.

All this quite apart from the fact that Baltimore is home to Poe's original burial site and the Poe Memorial Grave, as well as the Edgar Allan Poe House and Museum (a National Historic Landmark); the Enoch Pratt Library in Baltimore houses one of the largest, most extensive collections of Poe memorabilia in the world (including rare books, manuscripts, original letters, images, biographical and critical articles, and illustrated editions); and the George Peabody Library at Johns Hopkins Univ. houses an extensive collection of Poe's original letters as well as rare books and musical settings to Poe's works.

In short, there is more than ample association between Poe and the city of Baltimore to justify naming the city's NFL team "Ravens."

Some excellent points here.
"In short, there is more than ample association between Poe and the city of Baltimore to justify naming the city's NFL team "Ravens."
Baltimoreans as a whole, for the most part don't identify themselves with a random quote from a poet that once lived there. While there are a select, diehard fans of the poet, which have done an excellent job of documenting his life with various displays and historical exhibits, it's just not significant enough to warrant naming an NFL team after a Poe quote. "Crabs" would have been a better choice, etc....
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« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2017, 05:23AM »


The New York Jets started out in Shea Stadium, which was right in the landing path of LaGuardia Airport and I think they took advantage of the noise for their name. 


They were originally called the Titans in the old AFL.
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