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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Student and Feminist reaction to the election
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jakeway1
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« on: Nov 13, 2016, 04:21PM »

Across this once-great nation, college students http://nypost.com/2016/11/11/scenes-from-the-liberal-meltdown/ pooped their state-supplied diapers at Trump’s election. The University of Michigan gave students Play-Doh and coloring books to soothe their nerves. Cornell University held a “cry-in” wherein officials gave students hot chocolate and tissues. The University of Kansas offered therapy dogs to help students traumatized by the fact that their smug sense of being on the right side of history was permanently shattered.

The Brown Daily Herald http://www.browndailyherald.com/2016/11/09/brown-community-shaken-trump-win/ quotes a severely triggered student:

    Trump is an idiot; he’s repulsive; he screwed the government. If you’re not a white male then everything should scare you.

What should scare you is going 100K into debt with a useless degree in Gender Studies. If Clinton won would students that supported Trump be given any special consideration?

Against all expectations, 53% of white women voted for Trump, leading estrogen-addled white feminists to explode in vaginal fury. According to some pampered white “transgendered” dude who thinks he’s a chick at Huffington Post, “A Vote For Trump Was A Hate Crime.”http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/a-vote-for-trump-was-a-hate-crime_us_58249871e4b0edfa1393613a

Actress Lea DeLaria of Orange is the New Black—undeniably one of the most physically repulsive http://media.salon.com/2014/11/lea_delaria.jpg living creatures that God ever saw fit to set loose upon this earth (I may be confusing this individual with Patton Oswalt)—wrote on Instagram about how she wanted to pick “up a baseball bat and take out every ******* republican and independent I see.” This gender-indeterminate albino tree frog added the hashtag “#fuckstraightwhiteamerica” at the end of her post.

Alleged comedienne Samantha Bee http://www.breitbart.com/video/2016/11/11/samantha-bee-white-people-ruined-america/ spat on her TV show that “it’s pretty clear who ruined America: white people….The Caucasian nation showed up in droves to vote for Trump.” (Actually, a smaller percentage of whites—and a surprisingly higher quotient of blacks and Hispanics—voted for Trump than for Mitt Romney in 2012, but let’s not ruin her ethnomasochistic fantasies, shall we?)

Writing for Slate http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/11/09/white_women_sold_out_the_sisterhood_and_the_world_by_voting_for_trump.html, another generic pampered white liberal ***** wrote that “white women sold out the sisterhood” by voting for Trump and that the “biggest and saddest reason white women chose Trump over Clinton is simple: racism.”

Finally, sister-molesting Talmudic she-pig Lena Dunham http://www.lennyletter.com/politics/a608/dont-agonize-organize/ wrote that as the election results came in, “I could feel my chin breaking into hives”:

   
Quote
It’s painful to know that white women, so unable to see the unity of female identity, so unable to look past their violent privilege, and so inoculated with hate for themselves, showed up to the polls for him, too.


Here’s to four more years of hives on Lena Dunham's chin.
 
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Ken Jackson

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« Reply #1 on: Nov 13, 2016, 05:50PM »

Can I get an amen ?

I don't wish a pox on anyone, but

I hope "safeplaces/spaces " and "becoming triggered"

were just a phase.

And whining.......

OMFG

the whining

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« Reply #2 on: Nov 13, 2016, 06:05PM »

Quote
This is sexist

This quote from Savio's post a couple weeks ago might apply more aptly to this one.
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« Reply #3 on: Nov 13, 2016, 06:15PM »

So is like,

99% of Hollywood

......and beyond

Ever seen an Comedy Central Roast ?

Vulgar as sin
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« Reply #4 on: Nov 13, 2016, 06:16PM »

Does that make it okay? I'd hope not.
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« Reply #5 on: Nov 13, 2016, 06:19PM »

No, but they aren't ever excoriated and probably closer to exonerated

Point taken.....I wouldn't use some of that OP verbiage

OP post's point is probably missed.....like water over stone

by the blind and oblivious

or should I say "TO the blind and oblivious "
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jakeway1
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« Reply #6 on: Nov 13, 2016, 06:42PM »

Burger Bob said:
Quote
This is sexist

This quote from Savio's post a couple weeks ago might apply more aptly to this one.

You're right. Every quote referenced in the OP is racist and sexist.
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Ken Jackson

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« Reply #7 on: Nov 13, 2016, 07:04PM »

The OP is bent out of shape because some people who aren't pretty enough for him are still against Trump after the election.

I would be curious to see a current pic of the OP to know if his physical attractiveness is really so superior that he has grounds for this.

I've seen a lot of memes going around trying to tell us, much like this thread,  that the people who are against Trump are somehow childish or not as responsible patriots as the conservatives who supposedly live by rule of law and always accept election results without complaint.

They are conveniently ignoring the enormous white backlash against minority targets and the conservative white media mobilization that launched after Obama was elected in 2008 and they've been at it for eight years.

.



 
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« Reply #8 on: Nov 13, 2016, 07:57PM »

Jakeway1, let's see some pics of you.

I want to know who's complaining about someone else's looks as if that were a qualification for having an opinion.

We're waiting.
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« Reply #9 on: Nov 13, 2016, 08:08PM »

Burger Bob said:
You're right. Every quote referenced in the OP is racist and sexist.


...
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« Reply #10 on: Nov 14, 2016, 03:27AM »

There are no complaints, just facts.
pick “up a baseball bat and take out every ******* republican and independent I see.”-That's an opinion? How about #fuckstraightwhiteamerica?
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Ken Jackson

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« Reply #11 on: Nov 14, 2016, 04:55AM »

Jakeway1, let's see some pics of you.

I want to know who's complaining about someone else's looks as if that were a qualification for having an opinion.

We're waiting.


FB privacy settings are hard.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #12 on: Nov 14, 2016, 06:46AM »

Ken, I wonder how you would feel if a Presidential candidate (probably a woman) publicly said she'd grab every man she met by his "junk"?  Make you feel warm and fuzzy?  I think not.

I can agree with you that going into $100,000 debt for a degree in Comparative Basketweaving is not a good idea.  If you need to go into debt for a college degree it should be one where you have a chance to pay it back.  Certainly not music.
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« Reply #13 on: Nov 14, 2016, 07:20AM »

Can I get an amen ?

I don't wish a pox on anyone, but

I hope "safeplaces/spaces " and "becoming triggered"

were just a phase.

And whining.......

OMFG

the whining
Kinda like the "votes are rigged" whining simply because polls didn't look good?

Or the same ones threatening to revolt if they lost, now telling the protesters they are poor losers and they vote was given and they lost?

Should I go on?
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« Reply #14 on: Nov 14, 2016, 08:19AM »

There are no complaints, just facts.
pick “up a baseball bat and take out every ******* republican and independent I see.”-That's an opinion? How about #fuckstraightwhiteamerica?


Yup, those are real things. Not denying it.

So is your casual sexism.
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« Reply #15 on: Nov 14, 2016, 09:05AM »

for the 33,000th time, which presidential candidate said anything about grabbing women by their anatomy? Answer: none.

If we're going to claim that all past statements are current positions of candidates then Hillary has a lot to atone for even while she was a public servant...
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« Reply #16 on: Nov 14, 2016, 09:14AM »

for the 33,000th time, which presidential candidate said anything about grabbing women by their anatomy? Answer: none.

...

OK.  So I have to ignore anything anybody said until the time they declared for President?  Kinda makes it hard to try to determine their character, does it not.  He has been a boor and a bully for most of his career.  He made capital of it in The Apprentice.  Can we expect the leopard to change his spots now?  I don't expect so.

Hillary has said she made mistakes in the past.  I think she follows the philosophy that if you try to never make a mistake you won't do anything.  And she'd rather do something.

Personally, I think Comey has violated the Hatch Act.  He should have waited until after the election to reveal the extra e-mails.
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« Reply #17 on: Nov 14, 2016, 09:41AM »

Comey did his job and did it well. There are now four active federal investigations into the Clinton machine and hopefully we won't be hearing from them or the Bushes et al any more. Praise Trump! lol

I want a bully in the whitehouse after the last 8 years. I think Trump is more progressive than Obama but he's positioned himself perfectly as a supposed republican and a real scary conservative as his VP, (life insurance?). The GOP will have a hard time opposing the guy they've been defending even during the most ridiculous behavior on their candidate's part. Gonna be hard to oppose him like they did Obama. What if Trump manages to get single payer through while also increasing competition in the market? Only a pure partisan could decry that and trump is not someone to cross in the media (see Pope, The).
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« Reply #18 on: Nov 14, 2016, 10:15AM »

for the 33,000th time, which presidential candidate said anything about grabbing women by their anatomy? Answer: none.



You can deny it all you want to. But Donald Trump is on tape referencing grabbing women by the pu**y.

Did he say it as a presidential candidate? No. But he was no college frat boy saying it either. He was a grown man. Character fully formed. I never heard him come out and apologize for saying those things, that "I was wrong"

Nope. You get what you see and hear with him.

And it isn't pretty

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« Reply #19 on: Nov 14, 2016, 10:56AM »

I want a bully in the whitehouse after the last 8 years.
Most want a bully in the white house. They just want a bully that agrees with them and will fight the fights they want fought.

The reality of how that usually turns out is not so bright...
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« Reply #20 on: Nov 14, 2016, 11:00AM »

Most want a bully in the white house. They just want a bully that agrees with them and will fight the fights they want fought.

The reality of how that usually turns out is not so bright...
Hence the libertarian argument.
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« Reply #21 on: Nov 14, 2016, 11:02AM »

Hence the libertarian argument.
Nah, that's a completely different set on non sequiturs.

but hey, you got the bully you wanted. Now just to see how he does.
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« Reply #22 on: Nov 14, 2016, 11:49AM »

The OP is bent out of shape because some people who aren't pretty enough for him are still against Trump after the election.

No, I think he's expressing disdain at the need for adults (albeit student adults) to play with play-doh and puppies because they didn't get the result they wanted. And also disapproval and mockery of the anti-male, anti-white and anti-heterosexual opinions put forth in the links he provides.

And elmsandr, I think it was not cool to post a picture of the OP and (I assume) his family. But he's a handsome man with a happy- and healthy-looking daughter and wife. In my opinion.
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« Reply #23 on: Nov 14, 2016, 06:31PM »

No, I think he's expressing disdain at the need for adults (albeit student adults) to play with play-doh and puppies because they didn't get the result they wanted. And also disapproval and mockery of the anti-male, anti-white and anti-heterosexual opinions put forth in the links he provides.

And elmsandr, I think it was not cool to post a picture of the OP and (I assume) his family. But he's a handsome man with a happy- and healthy-looking daughter and wife. In my opinion.
I was hoping to get a response from the OP on that.  It is perfectly fine.  If he feels the need to pour on to people he does not know with comments on their appearance, as robcat noted, feel free to show your own face. Note that I made no value judgement there at all.

Heck, I almost called his boss and gave him a link to the post to see what they thought about it. Do you think they have corporate statement on diversity? I bet they do. Didn't think it was worth it, however.  No matter how many times he decides to get #madonline about stupid things.  We should have the ability to be stupid online.  But it should be called out.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #24 on: Nov 14, 2016, 07:09PM »

the bitter beer face is palpable
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« Reply #25 on: Nov 15, 2016, 05:27AM »

the bitter beer face is palpable
Man, look at me wanting people to be accountable for the silly things they say and not hide behind a veil of anonymity.

It happens to be his PUBLIC FB profile picture.

Unlike you, he has not made himself an 'angry egg.'  Maybe the OP, and others, will remember that they are people as well and they should treat others how they wish to be treated.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #26 on: Nov 15, 2016, 06:12AM »

Man, look at me wanting people to be accountable for the silly things they say...


It cuts both ways. One of the nice things about freedom of speech is that it's self-regulating. If you say something stupid and nasty, you make yourself look stupid and nasty. If you say something funny or clever, you make yourself look funny or clever, or whatever. Free speech carries its own punishments and rewards.

The OP had some valid points but, in my view, diminished their weight with intemperate expression in a couple of places.

You posted a picture of the man and his family and told us all you were contemplating calling the guy's boss to complain - like a schoolyard tattletale. That earns my derision and disdain.

If you disagree with the OP's criticism of the comments in the links he posted, tell us why. I'd also like to know why you think the OP's own appearance alters the validity of his comments on other people's attractiveness.
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« Reply #27 on: Nov 15, 2016, 09:01AM »

It cuts both ways. One of the nice things about freedom of speech is that it's self-regulating. If you say something stupid and nasty, you make yourself look stupid and nasty. If you say something funny or clever, you make yourself look funny or clever, or whatever. Free speech carries its own punishments and rewards.

The OP had some valid points but, in my view, diminished their weight with intemperate expression in a couple of places.

You posted a picture of the man and his family and told us all you were contemplating calling the guy's boss to complain - like a schoolyard tattletale. That earns my derision and disdain.

If you disagree with the OP's criticism of the comments in the links he posted, tell us why. I'd also like to know why you think the OP's own appearance alters the validity of his comments on other people's attractiveness.
I think it is pretty clear that I disagree with his methodology.  I think it is also pretty clear to you.  I don't think the OP will learn or listen to any criticism in that vein.  Not even a little.  The guy ain't exactly a new poster here. Will he learn when he realizes that people know that he is a real person?  The only point of my 'tattletale' sentence was to provide a thought to him (and any potential others engaging in trolling behavior*) is a reminder that this is a real-world space with real-world people.  The screen tends to make us forget that part.  I don't think the OP's appearance does matter, but apparently he does.  Good for the goose, good for the gander.  And again, it was to make him think about his own position as a person.  Maybe he will have empathy for somebody's photo being posted in a story.  The screen running a little interference here does (and you can see it around the web), is that it breaks that self-regulatory feature you have mentioned.  Read through this guy's posts here.  He comes back around every few months or weeks with the same schtick.  There doesn't seem to be a feedback loop at all.

*Couple of points on this... First, I'd describe many of the quotes in the OP's complaints as trolling behavior as well.  No better, regardless of the direction it spews from.  Secondly, I do not believe that any person is a troll.  Much like I don't think that anybody is a racist...  There are behaviors and actions, each which are more appropriately assigned than giving a person a label that is too binary for my tastes.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #28 on: Nov 15, 2016, 09:17AM »

Secondly, I do not believe that any person is a troll.  Much like I don't think that anybody is a racist...  There are behaviors and actions, each which are more appropriately assigned than giving a person a label that is too binary for my tastes.

Good stuff!
 
Also bear in mind, though, that we're not really dealing with whole people online, we're dealing with personas. Any given persona may or may not reflect a very clear image of the person behind it. There do seem to be some indications, but I wouldn't trust them very far at all, so we can't really say much about the people behind the personas with any degree of confidence. We can, however, assess the personas based upon what's posted.
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« Reply #29 on: Nov 15, 2016, 10:30AM »

I don't normally cotton to complaints about political correctness, because it seems as though people are just complaining about being asked to have decent manners. But on college campuses, the exaggerated fear of giving offense (and the determination to take it) and the ever-more-arcane rules surrounding acceptable behavior are starting to encroach on the educational mission. If you have to call something a 'micro-aggression' it just might not be worth mentioning.

To the extent he has a point, the OP undercuts it by centering his complaint on the fact that the women quoted didn't have the decency to look exactly the way he wants them to. He has an attractive family, but he wouldn't want his wife and daughter spoken of that way, and that's one of the things that people found repellent about Donald Trump.

Trump is a repulsive human being, missing a couple of pieces that people should have, in my opinion. He seems to be completely unqualified to be president. His qualifications seem to center around his business acumen, but his record of actually managing businesses profitably is very spotty, and his main successes have been related to self-promotion and branding. By his own account, he sexually assaults women, and some of his victims have corroborated Trump's account of this behavior.

So people have a right to be upset by his election. I'm absolutely dismayed by his election, not because he's a Republican (I vote for Republicans) but because he's an appalling choice, as many in his party have acknowledged.

I still think the hyperbole and the protests and the puppies and Play Doh and so forth are a bit silly, but let's not forget that not long ago people were talking about this being the last election ever if Hillary won, and promoting the idea that there should be a second American Revolution if Hillary was elected. KY governor Matt Bevin publicly mused that Hillary's election might call for bloodshed.

That certainly puts the OP's complaints in a different perspective. People have a right to complain, and at present an excellent cause for complaint.
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« Reply #30 on: Nov 15, 2016, 11:06AM »

The screen running a little interference here does (and you can see it around the web), is that it breaks that self-regulatory feature you have mentioned.  Read through this guy's posts here.  He comes back around every few months or weeks with the same schtick.  There doesn't seem to be a feedback loop at all.

Ah, now I understand a bit better where you're coming from with the picture post, although I had to read it a couple of times to understand running a little interference. This is a tactic in American football where teammates get in the way of defenders in order to protect the ball-carrier, am I right? Anyway, is your idea that anonymity removes the disincentive of unfavourable reactions to forms of expression?

I agree with you that people are a mixture of qualities, and that we vary from time to time. Some days we are just in a bad mood for some reason, or no reason at all. Sometimes we mis-speak or are misunderstood. Sometimes we just need to rant for a couple of minutes.

Some of the comments the OP quotes are unambiguously meant as an expression of hatred. If their object were jews or gays or women the comments would attract much criticism and possibly criminal sanctions (Which, by the way, I strongly oppose. Saying nasty or horrible or stupid or ridiculous stuff imposes its own sanction by making you look nasty or horrible or stupid or ridiculous). For some reason I don't understand, little similar criticism is forthcoming when the target is white heterosexual men. I assume the OP is a member of the group to whom hatred was expressed, so I can appreciate that there is a valid grievance.
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« Reply #31 on: Nov 15, 2016, 11:26AM »

SS, I think that it's natural to recognize that some groups are dominant and some dominated, to one extent or another, and to be more tolerant of ridicule of the former than of the latter. It's the same reason most people would be more accepting of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People than of the National Association for the Advancement of White People. It's the reason that a stock joke in broad comedies is a guy unexpectedly taking a painful shot to the groin, but the equivalent scene with a woman wouldn't make people laugh.

I don't think we need to wring our hands over the oppression of the straight white male. All but one of our presidents has fit that category (as far as we know) including the new one. We dominate Congress, state government, local government, and business as well. People instinctively want to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable rather than the other way around.

The lament of SWMs isn't that we will become oppressed, but that we might become slightly less dominant.
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« Reply #32 on: Nov 15, 2016, 12:33PM »

Ah, now I understand a bit better where you're coming from with the picture post, although I had to read it a couple of times to understand running a little interference. This is a tactic in American football where teammates get in the way of defenders in order to protect the ball-carrier, am I right? Anyway, is your idea that anonymity removes the disincentive of unfavourable reactions to forms of expression?
Exactly.  The OP is not viewing either us or the people he is posting about as people, just concepts.  Crazy lack of empathy... though in this case many he listed do not deserve a ton, but this isn't the first time around with the OP.
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I agree with you that people are a mixture of qualities, and that we vary from time to time. Some days we are just in a bad mood for some reason, or no reason at all. Sometimes we mis-speak or are misunderstood. Sometimes we just need to rant for a couple of minutes.
I concur. I've needed a lot of this benefit of the doubt myself.  Again, this was not the OP's first post like this.

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Some of the comments the OP quotes are unambiguously meant as an expression of hatred. If their object were jews or gays or women the comments would attract much criticism and possibly criminal sanctions (Which, by the way, I strongly oppose. Saying nasty or horrible or stupid or ridiculous stuff imposes its own sanction by making you look nasty or horrible or stupid or ridiculous). For some reason I don't understand, little similar criticism is forthcoming when the target is white heterosexual men. I assume the OP is a member of the group to whom hatred was expressed, so I can appreciate that there is a valid grievance.
As for legal consequences, there's a lot better to theorize on it here.  But groups are protected for good reasons that are based in real-world scenarios that threaten the life and safety of those groups repeatedly.  Never in my life will I be pulled over by the authorities for being a middle aged white guy (you can look for yourself, my FB profile picture is also public).  I will never be threatened just for looking a certain way while at a gas pump.  Doesn't enter my world. It does for transgendered people.  It does for brown/black people.  I can understand why if you were in those groups that you would want to wail and lean on a puppy.  Seems a bit silly to me, but my right to existence was not just put into question by a solid chunk of the population.

Cheers,
Andy


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Andrew Elms
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« Reply #33 on: Nov 15, 2016, 12:45PM »


I don't think we need to wring our hands over the oppression of the straight white male. All but one of our presidents has fit that category (as far as we know) including the new one.


Well there's gossip about James Buchanan who never married...
 
But seriously, hand wringing over equality of oppression is not the point. If we hold a moral principle that it is unkind to mock, deride, insult and persecute people for personal characteristics that they have not chosen, then we must hold it true for ALL characteristics. Otherwise it's not a principle. Kant explained it better.
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« Reply #34 on: Nov 15, 2016, 12:50PM »

we must hold it true for ALL characteristics. Otherwise it's not a principle. Kant explained it better.

I would have to take issue with that.

I have tried and failed to read Kant several times.

I would agree with you that he explained it correctly, but "better" implies that he did it understandably. 
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« Reply #35 on: Nov 15, 2016, 12:54PM »

Never in my life will I be pulled over by the authorities for being a middle aged white guy...  I will never be threatened just for looking a certain way while at a gas pump. 

Are you sure you'll never encounter a non-white traffic policeman who hates the evil white man?

And I have heard that there are neighbourhoods in American cities where white people are given a very very poor welcome. Is this not true? Areas in Paris, Marseille and London are a few examples from Europe that I have experienced personally.
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« Reply #36 on: Nov 15, 2016, 12:56PM »

I would have to take issue with that.

I have tried and failed to read Kant several times.

I would agree with you that he explained it correctly, but "better" implies that he did it understandably. 

Oh  :(

Everything I read was in German, so maybe it's become garbled in translation. Do you agree that if we adopt a principle we should apply it universally?
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« Reply #37 on: Nov 15, 2016, 02:50PM »

Are you sure you'll never encounter a non-white traffic policeman who hates the evil white man?

And I have heard that there are neighbourhoods in American cities where white people are given a very very poor welcome. Is this not true? Areas in Paris, Marseille and London are a few examples from Europe that I have experienced personally.

Does any of that invalidate the much, MUCH more predominant racism towards non-white people?
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« Reply #38 on: Nov 15, 2016, 03:30PM »

It refutes Andrew's assertions that he will never be pulled over for being white and that he will never be attacked because of his appearance. That was my intention.

I wasn't attempting to invalidate or alter the scale of racism directed towards non-whites. However, I'm not sure if it's true, as you say, that racism towards non-whites is more predominant than racism towards whites. It depends on what you mean by predominant. It also depends on what you categorise as racism. It depends on the racial proportions of the population you study to find out how much racism is going on. Globally, whites are greatly outnumbered by blacks so in absolute terms we might expect to see more incidents of racism (however defined) from black to white. In the USA, this phenomenon would probably be reversed.

One indication that follows naturally from Andrew's post is crime statistics. A comparison of black on white crimes with white on black crimes in the USA shows that the former is proportionally many times more likely than the latter. Or so the US Department of Justice figures say. We don't know if race was a motivating factor in any of the incidents.

But we are speaking only in terms of racism between blacks and whites: understandable for a mostly American forum because this is the biggest racial issue in the USA. There is much racism between blacks of different types, and between all sorts of combinations of non-white races. You should hear some of the things the Chinese say about blacks and Arabs. And some of the things Arabs say about Persians etc etc. India has 1.5 billion inhabitants and a pervasive caste system, including over 40 million lower caste members in indentured servitude. There are profound and fixed cultural barriers on what job you can do, who you can marry and where you can live. The scale of racism there dwarfs anything in the USA.

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« Reply #39 on: Nov 15, 2016, 04:29PM »

But, Sonic, NONE of those other societies claim to be egalitarian.  We do.  And if we fail to any extent it reflects a lot more on us than their inequalities do on them.
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« Reply #40 on: Nov 15, 2016, 04:36PM »

So that makes the suffering of a black American who receives a dubious traffic penalty a bit closer to an enslaved Dhalit sewer-cleaner?

Or do you agree with me that the claims their governments make for their societies don't change the experiences of the two people for better or worse?
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« Reply #41 on: Nov 15, 2016, 04:48PM »

So that makes the suffering of a black American who receives a dubious traffic penalty a bit closer to an enslaved Dhalit sewer-cleaner?

Or do you agree with me that the claims their governments make for their societies don't change the experiences of the two people for better or worse?
Where are you from?
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« Reply #42 on: Nov 15, 2016, 04:59PM »

Where are you from?

Central Europe
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« Reply #43 on: Nov 15, 2016, 06:31PM »

Are you sure you'll never encounter a non-white traffic policeman who hates the evil white man?

And I have heard that there are neighbourhoods in American cities where white people are given a very very poor welcome. Is this not true? Areas in Paris, Marseille and London are a few examples from Europe that I have experienced personally.
Yes, I'm sure.  And I drive through many of those reported neighborhoods weekly or monthly (Detroit and Dearborn).

Even if I concede that some of those people may exist, the chances that I will draw their ire are less that getting struck by lightning.  For the most part, I could get belligerent with a police officer and not get anything other than a stern talking to.  #gtbw (that's Good To Be White, if you are not into twitter).

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #44 on: Nov 15, 2016, 06:38PM »

So that makes the suffering of a black American who receives a dubious traffic penalty a bit closer to an enslaved Dhalit sewer-cleaner?

Or do you agree with me that the claims their governments make for their societies don't change the experiences of the two people for better or worse?

If you have to look this hard for a grievance, it's probably not valid. I'm going to say, without fear of contradiction, that I'm not part of an oppressed group. Unlike you, I'm not setting out to be part of one.
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« Reply #45 on: Nov 16, 2016, 08:20AM »

Yes, I'm sure. 

How so?
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« Reply #46 on: Nov 16, 2016, 09:31AM »

How so?
Hang out around here about 40 years...

Really.  It doesn't happen that way.  It barely happens the other way, just enough to note that it is a difference.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #47 on: Nov 16, 2016, 09:36AM »

I don't normally cotton to complaints about political correctness, because it seems as though people are just complaining about being asked to have decent manners. But on college campuses, the exaggerated fear of giving offense (and the determination to take it) and the ever-more-arcane rules surrounding acceptable behavior are starting to encroach on the educational mission. If you have to call something a 'micro-aggression' it just might not be worth mentioning.
 
To the extent he has a point, the OP undercuts it by centering his complaint on the fact that the women quoted didn't have the decency to look exactly the way he wants them to. He has an attractive family, but he wouldn't want his wife and daughter spoken of that way, and that's one of the things that people found repellent about Donald Trump.
 
Trump is a repulsive human being, missing a couple of pieces that people should have, in my opinion. He seems to be completely unqualified to be president. His qualifications seem to center around his business acumen, but his record of actually managing businesses profitably is very spotty, and his main successes have been related to self-promotion and branding. By his own account, he sexually assaults women, and some of his victims have corroborated Trump's account of this behavior.
 
So people have a right to be upset by his election. I'm absolutely dismayed by his election, not because he's a Republican (I vote for Republicans) but because he's an appalling choice, as many in his party have acknowledged.
 
I still think the hyperbole and the protests and the puppies and Play Doh and so forth are a bit silly, but let's not forget that not long ago people were talking about this being the last election ever if Hillary won, and promoting the idea that there should be a second American Revolution if Hillary was elected. KY governor Matt Bevin publicly mused that Hillary's election might call for bloodshed.
 
That certainly puts the OP's complaints in a different perspective. People have a right to complain, and at present an excellent cause for complaint.

Just wanted to make sure this one didn't get ignored and/or lost in the shuffle.
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« Reply #48 on: Nov 16, 2016, 12:27PM »

Yes, I thought it was a good post too.

Two of the most poorly regarded US Presidents were Ulysses S Grant and Warren Harding. There are several parallels with Donald Trump. Both had little governmental experience and were neither lawyers nor economists. Both engaged in some dubious financial dealings. Both received criticism on personal moral grounds.

But then, you've also had some "gifted amateurs" who did pretty well. Reagan, Eisenhower, Theodore Roosevelt.
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« Reply #49 on: Nov 16, 2016, 03:37PM »

Reagan was the worst thing that happened to this country in the second half of the 20th century.
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« Reply #50 on: Nov 16, 2016, 11:14PM »

Weren't there a couple of wars?
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« Reply #51 on: Nov 17, 2016, 04:59AM »

Weren't there a couple of wars?

Pedantry isn't actually argumentation, though it may seem so to ... well, to some.
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« Reply #52 on: Nov 17, 2016, 05:35AM »

Weren't there a couple of wars?

Neither had the long term destructive impact that the Reagan administration had on the American economy and our middle class.
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« Reply #53 on: Nov 17, 2016, 07:18AM »

Neither had the long term destructive impact that the Reagan administration had on the American economy and our middle class.

There is no doubt that trickle down economics and the Chicago school approach had a devastating effect.

What I wonder about (not being an economist myself) is how much damage globalization would have done anyway.  That's not something we could stop. 
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« Reply #54 on: Nov 17, 2016, 07:43AM »

Lena Dunham...Recent FYI:

http://heatst.com/politics/lena-durham-spirit-quest/

I did not know who this woman was until this election. I do not follow such things.
Maybe she found some solace.
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« Reply #55 on: Nov 17, 2016, 09:16AM »

There is no doubt that trickle down economics and the Chicago school approach had a devastating effect.

What I wonder about (not being an economist myself) is how much damage globalization would have done anyway.  That's not something we could stop. 

It was not just his "Voodoo, trickle-down" economics, although his tax cuts destroyed our middle class. It was also his de-regulation and dismantling of unions. Certainly globalization and, even more-so, mechanization had effects, but minus the negative impacts of Reagn's policies, those could have been assuaged.
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« Reply #56 on: Nov 17, 2016, 09:32AM »

Note that I am pro Union, but:

Reagan could not have strangled the unions by himself.  There were a lot of the Public who felt that Unions had exceeded "normal" expectations.  There were tales of ridiculous rules negotiated by the Unions.  I remember working at a Unionized DuPont plant where you couldn't take a newspaper into a lab or office.  Since the Union guys couldn't read newspapers anywhere they demanded that non-Union people had to have the same limitation.

I also had problems where a machine broke down.  As an Exempt employee I was not allowed to do any repairs.  I also had to figure out WHICH Union specialty was needed for the repair and get just that guy.  A carpenter couldn't touch an electric wire and vice versa.  In fact, I got a warning for carrying a sensor from one end of the plant to another for an experiment.

Tales like these tended to poison the public's mind about Unions.

I later worked in a non-Union shop.  I would do minor repairs on my equipment since the Maintenance crew was overextended.  They often appreciated it when I would have the thing disassembled and show them exactly what they needed to repair (when it was beyond my capability).  I treated them with respect and they treated me with respect.
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« Reply #57 on: Nov 17, 2016, 12:38PM »

I'd just like to remind you all that, while Donald Trump merely blusters about groping women, Bill Clinton actually got sucked off in the White House.  Good! So Donald really is a mere amateur beginner.

On a positive note, maybe Donald Trump's background as a businessman - rather than as a lawyer, economist or academic - might give him some helpful insight into supporting small and medium-sized businesses instead of the usual favouritism bought by big businesses. I really hope he's not doing this as a hobby thing for a few years to promote his own brand. Any thoughts?
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« Reply #58 on: Nov 17, 2016, 01:18PM »

And I'm slightly puzzled why several here think Ronald Reagan's tax policies were more destructive than two wars with around 200 000 American deaths. Can someone explain?
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« Reply #59 on: Nov 17, 2016, 01:26PM »

And I'm slightly puzzled why several here think Ronald Reagan's tax policies were more destructive than two wars with around 200 000 American deaths. Can someone explain?

How many people to tax policies effect? I'd say, roughly the population of the US.

Of course, it's apples and oranges- the wars weren't good either.
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« Reply #60 on: Nov 17, 2016, 01:28PM »

And I'm slightly puzzled why several here think Ronald Reagan's tax policies were more destructive than two wars with around 200 000 American deaths. Can someone explain?

Well, for starters, more Americans died to and from wherever in their cars than we killed in the wars, and those war deaths were from a volunteer force that signed up to be there. So no, those haven't registered very much in society, for better or worse, and mostly worse.
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« Reply #61 on: Nov 17, 2016, 01:46PM »

for the 33,000th time, which presidential candidate said anything about grabbing women by their anatomy? Answer: none.

If we're going to claim that all past statements are current positions of candidates then Hillary has a lot to atone for even while she was a public servant...
I think Hillary very much was held accountable for everything she did or said prior to running for president and it did cost her the election.  I certainly do hold Trump accountable for what he has said in the past also.  You can weight what they said based on how long ago it was, and what he has said or done since, but I don't think it should be totally ignored, Character typically doesn't change that much over time, people just get better at keeping things to themselves.  Donald Trump did say he grabbed women by their anatomy and got away with it because he was rich and famous.  We all heard it because it was recorded, and then he tried to brush it off as locker room talk.  With 6 years on active duty in the Navy, and over 14 years in the Army Reserve I've engaged in a lot of locker room talk, although I'm not proud of it I've done my share of rating women on a scale of 1 to 10 in the past, or expressed admiration for their physical attributes, etc.  Never once did I say I wanted to force myself on a women by grabbing her genitals. 
 
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« Reply #62 on: Nov 17, 2016, 01:48PM »

And I'm slightly puzzled why several here think Ronald Reagan's tax policies were more destructive than two wars with around 200 000 American deaths. Can someone explain?

His tax policies were more destructive to the economy and the size of the middle class than the wars. 
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« Reply #63 on: Nov 17, 2016, 02:22PM »


I'd just like to remind you all that, while Donald Trump merely blusters about groping women, Bill Clinton actually got sucked off in the White House. 


So, you consider consensual sex between adults, however tawdry and unethical, and sexual assault to be equivalent?
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« Reply #64 on: Nov 17, 2016, 04:24PM »

And I'm slightly puzzled why several here think Ronald Reagan's tax policies were more destructive than two wars with around 200 000 American deaths. Can someone explain?

Your numbers are low on the Wars.

Research deaths by Marxist Ideologues ( and it's variants ) over the past 100+ years also.



 
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« Reply #65 on: Nov 18, 2016, 04:48AM »


Research deaths by Marxist Ideologues ( and it's variants ) over the past 100+ years also.
 

Boy, talk about apples to sofas and jello to the wall........ Yeah, research that. You might find as many as 3 or 4 here in the United States if you are amazingly diligent and good at research at Mariannas Trench depth.
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« Reply #66 on: Nov 18, 2016, 05:49AM »

So, you consider consensual sex between adults, however tawdry and unethical, and sexual assault to be equivalent?

My answer has several angles. Simply, no they are not morally or legally equivalent. However, let's note that some religious believers consider adulterous sexual relations to be a crime equivalent in gravity to sexual assault.

In terms of how they affect a President's competence in his job, leaving aside morality and law, the difference is slight. The "sin" for want of a better word, is doing non-work during work time. I would like the President to do President work, not sex, sexual assault, sleeping (apparently Reagan did that a lot) or playing Pokemon.

Lastly, Donald Trump only talked about groping women. He hasn't been convicted of any sexual assaults, I believe. It's interesting that your constitution doesn't clearly state a presumption of innocence, although the 5th and 6th Amendments come close. I also wonder whether his comment wasn't literally referring to manually grasping someone's vagina. Like the expression to grab someone by the balls doesn't literally mean to take a grip of a man's testicles. Rather, Trump's comment was metaphorically describing how masculine charisma can command the attention of the opposite sex. Of course, it's Donald Trump's 1st Amendment entitlement to speak like an uncouth, ill-mannered a-hole. And that leads me on to one more thing.

Surely I'm not the only person to wonder whether Donald Trump was running for President as a self-promotion exercise and didn't ever expect to win. All his outrageous, media attention seeking comments were intended to raise his brand profile, rather then accurately reflect any serious policies. No such thing as bad publicity, as the saying goes. But as we've already discussed, this is a very effective way of getting people to vote for you in the US Presidential elections. I get a sense that he's thinking, "Oh crap, wasn't expecting that. Now I actually have to be President..."
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« Reply #67 on: Nov 18, 2016, 06:09AM »

I suspect there is a whole lot of truth to that.
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« Reply #68 on: Nov 18, 2016, 06:18AM »



In terms of how they affect a President's competence in his job, leaving aside morality and law, the difference is slight. The "sin" for want of a better word, is doing non-work during work time. I would like the President to do President work, not sex, sexual assault, sleeping (apparently Reagan did that a lot) or playing Pokemon.


Ah, the utilitarian argument.  "It's not so much about character as competence."

And yet the Evangelical Christians voted against Clinton largely on one issue (abortion) which has nothing to do with competence, and for Trump who would certainly seem to be the most immoral candidate ever, based on religious standards. 

Seems like a double standard, maybe?  On a head to head competence basis, she wins hands down.  The vote against her was about character, which you are arguing doesn't matter. 
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« Reply #69 on: Nov 18, 2016, 06:25AM »


Clinton...

she...

Ohhhh, that Clinton. I was thinking Bill for a moment.
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« Reply #70 on: Nov 18, 2016, 06:31AM »

Ah, the utilitarian argument.  "It's not so much about character as competence."

And yet the Evangelical Christians voted against Clinton largely on one issue (abortion) which has nothing to do with competence, and for Trump who would certainly seem to be the most immoral candidate ever, based on religious standards. 

Seems like a double standard, maybe?  On a head to head competence basis, she wins hands down.  The vote against her was about character, which you are arguing doesn't matter. 
Very much agree!! Hillary from a government experience standpoint was by far the more qualified candidate.  Her Character was constantly attacked by her detractors while the same people overlooked his obvious character flaws.  Quite a double standard if you ask me.
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« Reply #71 on: Nov 28, 2016, 06:57AM »

I think Hillary very much was held accountable for everything she did or said prior to running for president and it did cost her the election.  I certainly do hold Trump accountable for what he has said in the past also.  You can weight what they said based on how long ago it was, and what he has said or done since, but I don't think it should be totally ignored, Character typically doesn't change that much over time, people just get better at keeping things to themselves.  Donald Trump did say he grabbed women by their anatomy and got away with it because he was rich and famous.  We all heard it because it was recorded, and then he tried to brush it off as locker room talk.  With 6 years on active duty in the Navy, and over 14 years in the Army Reserve I've engaged in a lot of locker room talk, although I'm not proud of it I've done my share of rating women on a scale of 1 to 10 in the past, or expressed admiration for their physical attributes, etc.  Never once did I say I wanted to force myself on a women by grabbing her genitals. 
 
The point is, he wasn't a candidate when he said it. Hillary had plenty of arguably more scandalous positions and statements in her past than this and it's arguable on the topic of consent. They were both held somewhat accountable for these statements and Hillary is still accounting given the multiple active federal investigations to which she is currently subject. I don't really care if a president has shameful sexual proclivities. Is he/she planning to rape congress? I care more about their hawkishness or how entrenched they are etc. and that's a strike against Hillary.

The reaction to the election results from my liberal friends has been nothing short of disgusting. I don't care if you protest or demonstrate etc but when you start bullying other people or harassing/assaulting them and encouraging that behaviour in others then we've got a problem.
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« Reply #72 on: Nov 28, 2016, 07:57AM »

I'm not bullying, I'm lamenting.  Much like our friend Dickerson lamented about how bad that Black Activist from Chicago was 8 years ago.
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« Reply #73 on: Nov 28, 2016, 08:12AM »

I'm not bullying, I'm lamenting.  Much like our friend Dickerson lamented about how bad that Black Activist from Chicago was 8 years ago.
I'm not necessarily talking about you Bruce. I'm talking about the people who encouraged physical violence after the election. The people claiming that anyone who voted third party or even for trump are racist misogynists etc. The people who use "trump supporter" the way that fox news pundits liked to use "liberal". Even worse, when they use it as some kind of smear against anyone that happens to disagree with them or interrupt their circle jerk, double whammy. I watched a music professor call two of his former students "evil little cocksuckers" for defending a post that pointed out that some of the post election "hate crimes" were staged or unsupported and that perhaps we should take a breath before declaring that a national resurgence of the KKK had taken place.
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« Reply #74 on: Nov 28, 2016, 12:19PM »

You mean that Twitter feed that was proved to be false? 
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« Reply #75 on: Nov 28, 2016, 12:22PM »

You mean that Twitter feed that was proved to be false? 
I don't use or browse twitter.
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« Reply #76 on: Nov 28, 2016, 03:17PM »

The point is, he wasn't a candidate when he said it.

I don't see you holding to this position with any consistency. When DDickerson repeatedly draws conclusions about Hillary based on things she said when she was in college, that was long before any candidacy, and I haven't heard a peep out of you for it.

Some of the worst things Trump has said and done, on the other hand, date to when he was a middle-aged man, a public figure, and commonly toying with entering politics. Of course he should be accountable for things he said as a fully-formed adult. A 59-year-old man has a lot less expectation of evolving personally and intellectually than does a twenty-something grad student.

I don't expect you to be consistent, but you might try to come a wee bit closer.
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« Reply #77 on: Mar 06, 2017, 07:01PM »

I don't see you holding to this position with any consistency. When DDickerson repeatedly draws conclusions about Hillary based on things she said when she was in college, that was long before any candidacy, and I haven't heard a peep out of you for it.

Some of the worst things Trump has said and done, on the other hand, date to when he was a middle-aged man, a public figure, and commonly toying with entering politics. Of course he should be accountable for things he said as a fully-formed adult. A 59-year-old man has a lot less expectation of evolving personally and intellectually than does a twenty-something grad student.

I don't expect you to be consistent, but you might try to come a wee bit closer.

The point stands. He wasn't a candidate when he said it. Did you have an argument for that?
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« Reply #78 on: Mar 06, 2017, 07:07PM »

The point stands. He wasn't a candidate when he said it. Did you have an argument for that?
Pretty simple actually.

No one, at any time, has ever been limited in consideration of their actions and comments... starting only AFTER they have formally announced their candidacy.

Even regular job searches include a thing called a background check that checks your history before you even applied for the position and weighs it against your offer.

I just went through one and I'm a nobody in a normal nobody position.

I know the president thinks that he and his staff should be held to a lower ethical and moral standard than even a standard federal employee... (his lawyer just said so in defense of conway)

But really?
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« Reply #79 on: Mar 06, 2017, 07:08PM »

Pretty simple actually.

No one, at any time, has ever been limited in consideration of their actions and comments... starting only AFTER they have formally announced their candidacy.

Even regular job searches include a thing called a background check that checks your history before you even applied for the position and weighs it against your offer.

Which changes nothing.
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« Reply #80 on: Mar 06, 2017, 07:11PM »

Which changes nothing.
Well yeah... Your point is an unrealistic imagining of someone working to argue for the sake of arguing and still doing a poor job of it.

In the real world, we all are generally impacted by what we do in the past when trying for future opportunities.

So goes life.
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« Reply #81 on: Mar 06, 2017, 07:43PM »

The point stands. He wasn't a candidate when he said it. Did you have an argument for that?

Wow! My comment must have stuck in your craw, months later.

I have a perfectly good argument for it--you're making my point for me. Either past history is a factor, or it's not.

If you're going to exempt people for comments they made when they weren't candidates, do it evenly. If you're going to hold people responsible for what they say, hold them responsible for what they've said lately. I was a dope when I was twenty, and I do my best not to still be one. Donald Trump was bragging about sexual assault when he was nearly my age.

Still, if someone wants to hold everyone responsible for everything they ever said in their life, without regard to what age they said it, I can't imagine how it would support your point. Trump was still keeping blacks out of his dad's apartments in his twenties.

But whatever standard you want to apply, just apply it evenly.
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