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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) What Trump's election means for the rest of the world
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Author Topic: What Trump's election means for the rest of the world  (Read 27052 times)
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Graham Martin
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« Reply #600 on: Aug 25, 2017, 05:15PM »

I don't know if I should blame Trump for the feelings that exist in the US about racist statues, but the desire to tear them down because they apparently are not meaningful for some, or rather promote the wrong ideas and history, has now become a discussion here in Australia following the problems Trump has recently experienced:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-18/america-tears-down-its-racist-history-we-ignore-ours-stan-grant/8821662

Personally, I do not have a problem with the claim that Captain Cook discovered Australia. I think it only says it was discovered and the nation founded as far as Great Britain was concerned. I really do not think there are many Australians who do not recognise that the indigenous population was here maybe 70,000 years before Cook 'discovered' Australia.

I have always rather liked Stan Grant, the author of this article, but I think it is more important to properly recognise the Indigenous people in the Constitution and recognise their ownership claims on some territories. I think quibbling about the word 'discovered' is a bit irrelevant.   
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Grah

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« Reply #601 on: Aug 25, 2017, 05:45PM »

Perhaps one could say he "landed" in Australia rather than discovered it.

It's been awhile since we commonly said that Columbus "discovered" America.
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« Reply #602 on: Aug 25, 2017, 06:19PM »

We have been saying that Columbus was the first European to find America, but that ignores the fact that Leif Eriksson led an expedition here some 500 years earlier.

Meanwhile we had people living here for at least 14,000 years before the arrival of either Eriksson or Columbus.  We treated them like dirt and simply drove them off their land (much like the English did to Australian Aborigines and Maoris).

Biggest problem with the Confederate era statues was that they were in general erected at a time that Jim Crow was emerging and the Whites in the South wanted to remind any Blacks that they were still in charge and should be treated with "respect".  Message sent and received loud and clear.  Southern Blacks did not achieve parity with Whites simply because they were not allowed to.

And those attitudes won't disappear in 40 years of enforced integration; it will take generations.
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Bruce Guttman
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Graham Martin
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« Reply #603 on: Aug 25, 2017, 06:27PM »

Apparantly Columbus statues are now being considered for removal. Exactly the same arguments as Australia, except for that one coming from the Italian Americans:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/25/new-york-christopher-columbus-statue-de-blasio

I think the whole thing is crazy. There are much more important things going on the world that need the attention of us all.
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Grah

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« Reply #604 on: Aug 25, 2017, 09:13PM »

There aren't many Native Americans in New York City to take umbrage about a statue to Christopher Colombus.  And the Italians used to be proud of him, even though he sailed for Spain (he was a Genoan).

Incidentally, the area around New York City was not visited by Columbus at all.  It was visited by John Cabot and Giovanni Verrazano.

Now a statue to George Custer on an Indian Reservation is another matter entirely.
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Bruce Guttman
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Graham Martin
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« Reply #605 on: Aug 25, 2017, 11:18PM »

As I understand it, Columbus was never in America. He just sailed around a bit in the Caribbean area and Central America. In any case, he thought he was somewhere else. 
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Grah

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« Reply #606 on: Aug 26, 2017, 05:33AM »

So, why is Columbus an issue? Does anybody know?
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« Reply #607 on: Aug 26, 2017, 06:28AM »

So, why is Columbus an issue? Does anybody know?

That you don't know speaks volumes. As you like to say, 'Look it up.'
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« Reply #608 on: Aug 26, 2017, 08:08AM »

As I understand it, Columbus was never in America. He just sailed around a bit in the Caribbean area and Central America. In any case, he thought he was somewhere else. 

And remember, they named it after Amerigo Vespucci (who sailed to South America).  We have the entrance to New York City harbor named for Giovanni Verrazano, who actually was there.
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« Reply #609 on: Aug 26, 2017, 12:48PM »

Columbus is a testament to bad math schooling.

(The calculation about the distance around the world was totally off; he did not have enough supplies to complete it, so it is lucky he ran into those islands.  )
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« Reply #610 on: Aug 26, 2017, 03:22PM »

Interesting twist with the statue situation:

http://wreg.com/2017/08/25/orpheum-theater-wont-show-gone-with-the-wind-calling-film-insensitive/
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Graham Martin
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« Reply #611 on: Aug 26, 2017, 03:33PM »

The Australian debate about Captain Cook and others stepped up a notch yesterday with "change the date" slogans being painted on famous statues of colonial figures in Sydney's Hyde Park. The date they want to change is that of Australia Day, which is held on the anniversary of the arrival of the First Fleet in Australia in 1788. 11 convict ships from Great Britain landed at Port Jackson in New South Wales, where Governor Arthur Philip raised the British flag to signal the beginning of the British colony. Indigenous Australians often refer to this as Invasion Day.

http://www.australianstogether.org.au/stories/detail/understanding-australia-day?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrfii3Pb11QIVlAYqCh2ipwHtEAAYASAAEgKRtPD_BwE

I have slightly more sympathy with this argument for changing the date than I do for objections to the use of 'discovered' on the Captain Cook statues. However, our PM Malcolm Turnbull has got his nickers in a bit of a twist over this, saying those responsible are part of a campaign to "obliterate" Australia's history. He posted a lengthy message on his Facebook page (shades of Trump and his tweets) after the monuments were painted with anti-Australia Day messages and comparing the actions of rewriting history as being akin to measures taken in Soviet Russia.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-26/australia-day-argument-intensifies-as-vandals-hit-captain-cook/8845064
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Grah

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« Reply #612 on: Sep 12, 2017, 08:52AM »

Meanwhile, in the Great White North:

An Ontario judge who wore a hat in court bearing a slogan used by U.S. President Donald Trump has been suspended without pay over the incident.

The Ontario Judicial Council says Justice Bernd Zabel's conduct warrants the most serious reprimand possible short of removing him from the bench.

The council, which heard Zabel's case last month, says the incident marks a "single aberrant and inexplicable act of judicial misconduct" from an otherwise respected judge.
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« Reply #613 on: Sep 12, 2017, 09:36AM »

Meanwhile, in the Great White North:

An Ontario judge who wore a hat in court bearing a slogan used by U.S. President Donald Trump has been suspended without pay over the incident.


I'm going to say "Grab 'em by the p*ssy" probably was inappropriate in a court room.

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Robert Holmén

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Graham Martin
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« Reply #614 on: Sep 28, 2017, 03:20PM »

I have been getting a bit worried about our PM Malcolm Turnbull and his threatening of North Korea. I guess he is just backing up his new mate Trump but he should see the obvious, that it puts us at the top of the list of American allies for a Kim Jong-un missile attack.

Australia does not have any missile defence whatsoever because previous Governments have placed too much faith in the US and the ANZUS treaty. Frankly, I am not so sure that the US has enough of a missile defence for its own protection, let alone be able to provide one for its allies like Australia.

Our weakness has just been pointed out by a former Pentagon missile boss Dr Brad Roberts, saying that Australia should seriously prepare for a North Korean attack. :-0 I thought that this was pretty obvious but our PM seems to be very naïve about our lack of defence. It is true that last month, our Defence Industry Minister Christopher Pyne confirmed the Government was considering upgrading the Navy's new air warfare destroyers to include missile defence shields. But that cannot happen overnight and the threat is now! Personally I think PM Turnbull should just shut his stupid mouth and stop baiting Kim Jong-un. Trump should also!

I cannot remember a time when the world has been in peril from such crazy leaders who have the capability to carry out their threats. It is very concerning for the whole world, but particularly those in easy range of North Koreas missiles.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-29/australia-should-prepare-for-north-korean-attack/8998902

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-29/north-koreas-latest-move-is-a-risky-one/8851776
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Grah

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Graham Martin
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« Reply #615 on: Nov 08, 2017, 03:06PM »

I have been watching the topic on the "Shooting in Texas" with a great deal of interest. The fact that it has raised so much interest (200 posts) on this forum is maybe a sign that Americans (trombonists at least) will eventually want to do something about gun control.

On the other hand, it illustrates for me the vast differences between American culture and that of most of the rest of the 'Western world'. Just one of several cultural areas where I hope that we in Australia pursue a common sense line instead of trying to ape Americans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense
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Grah

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« Reply #616 on: Nov 08, 2017, 03:34PM »

I'm afraid not much will be done as long as there is money in selling guns.
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #617 on: Nov 08, 2017, 03:57PM »

I have been watching the topic on the "Shooting in Texas" with a great deal of interest. The fact that it has raised so much interest (200 posts) on this forum is maybe a sign that Americans (trombonists at least) will eventually want to do something about gun control.

Most Americans already do think we need to do something about gun violence. Beyond that there's a whole lot of disagreement. What "something" means--what exactly needs to be done and to what end--varies radically. Probably the majority want to take sensible measures, but the NRA is loaded and many of its members are religiously devoted to it.
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« Reply #618 on: Nov 08, 2017, 04:30PM »

Probably the majority want to take sensible measures, but the NRA is loaded and many of its members are religiously devoted to it.
The interesting thing is that those NRA fanatics, and I use the term quite seriously, number about 3 million. Less than 1% of the total population.
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« Reply #619 on: Nov 08, 2017, 04:37PM »

I have been watching the topic on the "Shooting in Texas" with a great deal of interest. The fact that it has raised so much interest (200 posts) on this forum is maybe a sign that Americans (trombonists at least) will eventually want to do something about gun control.

I would come down on the side of doing something about violence, rather than guns.

In your country the two might be the same thing, I don't want to make assumptions about your side of the world.

In our country it isn't.  It is a much more complex subject.

Well, I've been trying to argue that in the Texas topic, but I don't think I'm getting any traction.  The most common two sentiments are ban guns and get more guns, neither of which address how quick we are to kill each other compared to other first world countries. 
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