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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) What Trump's election means for the rest of the world
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ddickerson

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« Reply #640 on: Dec 05, 2017, 03:12PM »

I honestly don't care WHO is financing a push to register voters.

Obviously, you must not know who Soros is. Sad.
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ddickerson

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« Reply #641 on: Dec 05, 2017, 03:14PM »



Or, the Republicans are desperate enough to throw their lots in behind an alleged child molester (with rather compelling evidence)

They have been discredited. 40 years should give you a hint. LOL!
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« Reply #642 on: Dec 06, 2017, 01:23AM »

The story you're telling is discredited. That's why you can't link to it at any credible source.

Registering legal voters is a legitimate activity. The ACLU defends the civil rights of people, on principle, even if they disagree with those people. They lost a lot of donors defending Nazi marchers but felt that the First Amendment required it.
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« Reply #643 on: Dec 06, 2017, 04:59AM »

Soros is a boogieman Republicans use to scare the immature, non-critical thinkers in their base. In the last few election cycles he has spent far less than 10% of just what the Kochs have spent. If you add in the Mercers and the Adelsons and the rest, Soros is a non-issue to thinking people who pay attention in the real world.
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« Reply #644 on: Dec 06, 2017, 05:49AM »

They have been discredited. 40 years should give you a hint. LOL!
So, sexual interference with a child 40 years ago was okay and not considered molestation?
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« Reply #645 on: Dec 06, 2017, 08:45AM »

So, sexual interference with a child 40 years ago was okay and not considered molestation?

If that's how you interpret my statement regarding 40 years, then, that's on you dude. LOL!
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« Reply #646 on: Dec 06, 2017, 09:08AM »

There is no statute of limitations on sexual abuse of a minor in Alabama. THe sex crimes unit of the local PD and the local DA are derelict in their duty if they are not investigating those credible claims.
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« Reply #647 on: Dec 06, 2017, 10:36AM »

So, sexual interference with a child 40 years ago was okay and not considered molestation?

No, typically some of the things he is accused of doing are considered statutory rape (sex with a minor). A bit higher of a charge, I believe.
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« Reply #648 on: Dec 06, 2017, 11:40AM »

What DD is referring to is that he's suspicious of the amount of time that went by without the crime being reported. The problem is that this is commonplace in these kinds of cases, including ones that DD would likely attach credence to.

Many of Bill Cosby's and Donald Trump and Bill Weinstein's and Donald Trump's victims came forward many years later. Oftentimes the presence of someone in the news triggers someone to speak up, and once one person breaks the ice more victims are emboldened to come forward. This is not surprising in the Roy Moore case--it's more the rule than the exception.

One thing that's telling in this case is that Moore is plainly lying about aspects of it. When he claimed not to know any of the victims he did not reckon with the possibility that some of them would have contrary proof. The fact that he lied; that several of the accusers are GOP and Trump voters; that people who knew Moore at the time claimed that it was an open secret that he liked teenagers, and the similarity of the stories and lack of connection between the accusers, and the sheer number of accusers, all lend to the credibility of these tales.
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« Reply #649 on: Dec 06, 2017, 12:11PM »

But, his opponent is guilty of far worse - He's a Democrat!!!!!  There is no higher crime.  Everything else is secondary.  Rape, Statutory Rape, Sexual Harassment, White Supremacy, Antisemitism, Hate Crimes, Homophobia, Xenophobia, out and out Murder (as long as it's not murder of the unborn), NOTHING is a worse crime than being a Democrat.
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« Reply #650 on: Dec 07, 2017, 05:53AM »

What DD is referring to is that he's suspicious of the amount of time that went by without the crime being reported. The problem is that this is commonplace in these kinds of cases, including ones that DD would likely attach credence to.

Many of Bill Cosby's and Donald Trump and Bill Weinstein's and Donald Trump's victims came forward many years later. Oftentimes the presence of someone in the news triggers someone to speak up, and once one person breaks the ice more victims are emboldened to come forward. This is not surprising in the Roy Moore case--it's more the rule than the exception.

One thing that's telling in this case is that Moore is plainly lying about aspects of it. When he claimed not to know any of the victims he did not reckon with the possibility that some of them would have contrary proof. The fact that he lied; that several of the accusers are GOP and Trump voters; that people who knew Moore at the time claimed that it was an open secret that he liked teenagers, and the similarity of the stories and lack of connection between the accusers, and the sheer number of accusers, all lend to the credibility of these tales.

PM seems to be the only one that can read and respond correctly. There are suspicions regarding these accusers:
1 - Being from the past (40 years)
2 - They were sought out (the first one or two)
3 - The timing of their accusations becoming public at the tail end of an election campaign (this one always raises the red alert button)
4 - There is a strong tide coming from the establishment GOP that didn't want him elected (I believe would do anything to stop him)
5 - Usually, this kind of perverted behaviour doesn't stop, even sometimes after being outed. But, in this case, you would have to believe that he somehow voluntarily decided not to do it anymore over 30 years ago. There is no one claiming that he is still doing this, even after 30 years of marriage. That doesn't fit the profile of what he's being accused of.

The fact that they now claim to be GOP or Trump supporters is questionable as a validation (remember Trump didn't support Moore, and the establishment GOP didn't support Moore). The fact that they claim 'everyone knew' seems to be the convenient go to phrase these days.

'Everyone knew', while he served all his life in the government, especially even as the Governor without any accusations, until now.

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« Reply #651 on: Dec 07, 2017, 06:04AM »

THe accusations ARE credible. THere are multiple corroborating witnesses who were informed of the allegations contemporaneously with the abuse. There is no Statute of Limitations on sexual abuse of a minor in Alabama. The local PD's sex crimes unit and the local DA are derelict in their duties if there is not an open investigation being pursued.
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« Reply #652 on: Dec 07, 2017, 06:36AM »

THe accusations ARE credible. THere are multiple corroborating witnesses who were informed of the allegations contemporaneously with the abuse. There is no Statute of Limitations on sexual abuse of a minor in Alabama. The local PD's sex crimes unit and the local DA are derelict in their duties if there is not an open investigation being pursued.

Let them have their day in court. I have no problem with that. Not all of the accusers were credible.
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« Reply #653 on: Dec 07, 2017, 11:17AM »

DD, you're making the best case that can be made for Moore, and it's still not very good.

The fact that it took the young victims so long to come forward isn't at all surprising or suspicious. It's the usual, especially with very young women. I grew up with sisters, and at that age they often had little crushes on older men, and were flattered by attention from them which made them feel grown up. They lacked the maturity to realize that decent men wouldn't return the attention. The fourteen-year-old went to a house with Moore, probably excited to be with him, then it went farther than she intended. She was probably ashamed of the encounter, and of herself for putting herself in that situation.

Juanita Broaddrick, who was Bill Clinton's worst accuser (she accused him of forcible rape) later went to one of his small fundraisers in a private home, with Bill in attendance. She also signed an affidavit in another case saying she had never been assaulted by Clinton. Victims sometimes behave in strange ways.

Regarding Trump's support of Moore's primary opponent, that doesn't mean much. Polls showed that most Trump voters favored Moore. Trump also supported Moore in the general election, and if your theory is that the 'GOP establishment' was behind this, you can't very well claim that Trump voters are part of the GOP establishment. You're having trouble coming up with a motive for these people to lie about Moore.

The timing of the accusations isn't unusual, either. Remember all the 'bimbo eruptions' that took place when Bill became a serious contender in the presidential primary? This is the usual pattern--one victim finally comes forward and the rest are suddenly emboldened, many years after the fact, to say, "Me too."

Regarding the lack of reoffense, you're right that some sex offenders don't grow out of it (many do). But Moore isn't a pedophile in the sense of being attracted to small children--he just likes women who are much younger than he is. Most of them weren't illegal for him to pursue, except the fourteen-year-old, and the underage woman who he plied with liquor. This pattern has indeed carried through his life--he's married to a much younger woman, whom he himself admits he first noticed at a dance recital when she was fifteen.

You're also ignoring the likelihood that there are many other girls we don't know about.

You're not addressing why he lied about knowing the women. None of the women have been caught in a lie, and they have contemporary corroboration of the incidents as well as notes from Moore in his handwriting. It's pretty hard to fake a teenage diary forty years after the fact, and why would they? Given a choice, I'll believe the person who didn't lie.

The 'everyone knew' claim seems pretty damned reliable to me, given the number of people it came from, and the consistencies of their claims. Remember that what 'everyone knew' was that Moore as a 32-year-old had a creepy fixation with teenagers that wasn't illegal. The recollection comes from too many directions and from too many unrelated people to be a falsehood. But it lends credence to the accounts of the 14-year-old that he raped, and the teenager to whom he gave alcohol.

Moore's own words are damning. In addition to his admission that he first noticed his future wife when she was fifteen, he also told Sean Hannity that when he was in his thirties he got parents' permission before going on dates. How many women did you see at 32 who needed permission to date? Sometimes people just admit things inadvertently.

Finally, if you want to be brutally honest with yourself, look at your own pattern of believing or not believing accusations made about public figures. If you were going to create a model to predict which accusations you would believe, wouldn't it be whether they agree with you politically?   The excuses you're making for Roy Moore and Donald Trump, like the late reporting or the political expedience or the lack of criminal charges, you simply do not apply to Clinton or Weinstein or Al Franken. If your whole process is picking people you like and calling their accusers liars, you're not a very good person.
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« Reply #654 on: Dec 07, 2017, 01:22PM »


Finally, if you want to be brutally honest with yourself, look at your own pattern of believing or not believing accusations made about public figures. If you were going to create a model to predict which accusations you would believe, wouldn't it be whether they agree with you politically?   The excuses you're making for Roy Moore and Donald Trump, like the late reporting or the political expedience or the lack of criminal charges, you simply do not apply to Clinton or Weinstein or Al Franken. If your whole process is picking people you like and calling their accusers liars, you're not a very good person.
You can't lump all these together in one bucket.

I'm not just picking people who I like. I'm applying reasons for the way I think about what's going on. I listed them. Just because you don't agree with me, doesn't make me a 'not a very good person'.

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« Reply #655 on: Dec 07, 2017, 01:48PM »

One problem here is the fact that many adults (the Alternative Facts Cre) have a toddler's understanding of honesty and other basic ethical and moral concepts.
 
That clip was recently posted--not sure if it was here on the OTF or not, but thanks to whoever posted it in any case!
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« Reply #656 on: Dec 07, 2017, 02:19PM »

You can't lump all these together in one bucket.

I'm not just picking people who I like. I'm applying reasons for the way I think about what's going on. I listed them. Just because you don't agree with me, doesn't make me a 'not a very good person'.




I'm not putting them all in one bucket, because some of those are worse. Moore molested a 14-year-old girl. Cosby drugged and raped people, and I'm convinced his accusers are telling the truth. Weinstein tried (and sometimes succeeded) to bully women into sex. Trump and Franken groped and kissed adult women without their consent. Trump even admitted it.

I'm just pointing out the extreme predictability of which accusers you believe. It has nothing to do with the evidence and everything to do with who's being accused. You're welcome to go through your posts and show all the contrary examples.

Many of these had some of the elements you're describing--a lack of prompt reporting, lack of formal charges, a political element, etc. According to you, those are damning against Trump and Moore's accusers--in the other cases not so much.
 
The reason you're a bad person is that you're calling rape victims 'liars' because they accused someone you essentially agree with politically. It's very plain that you don't apply honest and consistent standards in each case--you are treating the very real abuse of women as a political weapon, which is disgusting.
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« Reply #657 on: Dec 07, 2017, 02:36PM »

I wonder if DD would give any credence to such claims against Trump or Moore if they came from his own daughter or granddaughter.
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« Reply #658 on: Dec 07, 2017, 04:45PM »

I wonder if DD would give any credence to such claims against Trump or Moore if they came from his own daughter or granddaughter.
They are women.  The word of the unclean and historical cannot be given credence.
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« Reply #659 on: Dec 07, 2017, 10:41PM »


I'm not putting them all in one bucket, because some of those are worse. Moore molested a 14-year-old girl. Cosby drugged and raped people, and I'm convinced his accusers are telling the truth. Weinstein tried (and sometimes succeeded) to bully women into sex. Trump and Franken groped and kissed adult women without their consent. Trump even admitted it.

I'm just pointing out the extreme predictability of which accusers you believe. It has nothing to do with the evidence and everything to do with who's being accused. You're welcome to go through your posts and show all the contrary examples.

Many of these had some of the elements you're describing--a lack of prompt reporting, lack of formal charges, a political element, etc. According to you, those are damning against Trump and Moore's accusers--in the other cases not so much.
 
The reason you're a bad person is that you're calling rape victims 'liars' because they accused someone you essentially agree with politically. It's very plain that you don't apply honest and consistent standards in each case--you are treating the very real abuse of women as a political weapon, which is disgusting.

You don't read very well. No need to waste time here.
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