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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Understanding isn't the problem ...
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Burgerbob

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« Reply #20 on: Nov 24, 2016, 01:19PM »

I read this a few days ago.

Having grown up in a flyover state (almost the MOST flyover state, I think), I have to agree with basically all his points. I think he goes a little far in the response, but I agree that meeting halfway with viewpoints that are under- and mis-educated is basically pointless.
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« Reply #21 on: Nov 24, 2016, 03:39PM »

I'd say the rest of your criticism of Forsetti's points is entirely valid (though I might take issue with a point or two), but your "greatest criticism" there is a straw man. You seem to be confusing criticism of what Forsetti is arguing are self-defeating and meritless beliefs with suggesting people somehow shouldn't be allowed to have certain beliefs, however that would work. Ironically Forsetti is actually in part making very much the same criticism of popular Southern beliefs you are of his comments.

Ah yes, I indulged in a long complicated sentence and failed to communicate clearly. I'll split my main criticism into two parts.

1) The author contends that some of the typical beliefs he suggests are incorrect, but doesn't set out clear and systematic refutations.

2) The article asserts that when white, rural-dwelling, Christian Americans want to preserve a shared culture, identify as a homogenous section of US society and pursue what they see as their own interests, this is a problem. Consider the following paraphrases:

[Jewish] America is entrenched in fundamentalist belief systems, [doesn’t] trust people outside [its] tribe, [has] been force fed a diet of misinformation and lies for decades, [is] unwilling to understand [its] own situations, truly [believes] Jews are superior to all races.

No economic policy put forth by someone outside their tribe is going to be listened to no matter how beneficial it would be for [Blacks].

I understand their Muslim beliefs and morals are truly only extended to fellow Muslims.


I think they reveal that the author wishes to express towards white Christians the same bigotry and racism he is criticising. That is what I meant by arguing against himself.
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« Reply #22 on: Nov 24, 2016, 04:33PM »

I don't think any of us have said he's blameless.  And one can find Liberals who express the same kinds of prejudices.

Tribal identification predates most recorded history so his interpretation isn't terribly radical.
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« Reply #23 on: Nov 24, 2016, 04:47PM »

Ah yes, I indulged in a long complicated sentence and failed to communicate clearly. I'll split my main criticism into two parts.
 
1) The author contends that some of the typical beliefs he suggests are incorrect, but doesn't set out clear and systematic refutations.
Hmmm ... closed-mindedness, racism, presumed superiority over other demographics, anger when reality fails to comply with one's dogmas ... do these kinds of traits really require refutations?
 
You may disagree with Forsetti's characterizations, but I'm not sure it's reasonable to argue that the traits he's describing require refutation.
 
2) The article asserts that when white, rural-dwelling, Christian Americans want to preserve a shared culture, identify as a homogenous section of US society and pursue what they see as their own interests, this is a problem.
No, Forsetti points out the problems in how they think and go about pursuing what they think are their own interests but can be demonstrably shown are not (a point that can certainly be challenged). Forsetti isn't suggesting the mere fact that they pursue their own interests is a problem, it's the interests they really pursue and how they pursue them. Again, you're arguing against a straw man here.
 
[Jewish] America is entrenched in fundamentalist belief systems, [doesn’t] trust people outside [its] tribe, [has] been force fed a diet of misinformation and lies for decades, [is] unwilling to understand [its] own situations, truly [believes] Jews are superior to all races.
 
No economic policy put forth by someone outside their tribe is going to be listened to no matter how beneficial it would be for [Blacks].
 
I understand their Muslim beliefs and morals are truly only extended to fellow Muslims.

 
I think they reveal that the author wishes to express towards white Christians the same bigotry and racism he is criticising. That is what I meant by arguing against himself.
So if someone were describing a culture in which these things really are accurate descriptions, is recognizing these things therefore racist? Again, you may disagree with his take, but you're arguing that the mere existence of his take is inherently the same problem as described. If recognizing these traits in a population is itself displaying those same traits, how can anyone ever accept that these negative attributes exist? If we take that thinking and apply it to Nazi Germany and the pre-Civil Rights Movement South, then those who acted against these cultures were the racists and fascists and such because they recognized the fact that these traits and behaviors were a definitive aspect of those societies. Forsetti's saying a lot of the pre-Civil Rights Movement attitudes are still alive and well in fly-over America. If you and he are both right, then only racists and bigots can spot racism and bigotry.
 
I'd also point out the fact that we see the very attitudes described in here, granted they may not all be displayed by Southerners and Midwesterners, but Forsetti's not arguing they're exclusively owned by fly-over America either.
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« Reply #24 on: Nov 25, 2016, 08:22AM »

Sorry, don't know how to multi-quote.

...closed-mindedness, racism, presumed superiority over other demographics, anger when reality fails to comply with one's dogmas ... do these kinds of traits really require refutations?

Yes. The onus is on the proponent to persuade the audience. Or has a definitive list of good things and bad things been made while I wasn't paying attention?




Forsetti isn't suggesting the mere fact that they pursue their own interests is a problem, it's the interests they really pursue and how they pursue them. Again, you're arguing against a straw man here.

I think you've missed the hidden premises in Forsetti's enthymeme. There are several.

1.  ...they are the problem with [my idea of] progress and will always be because their belief systems are constructed against it.
2. [my idea of] progress is good and should happen
3. anything that impedes progress also causes badness
4. badness should not be caused
5. their belief systems impede progress
6. therefore their belief systems cause badness and should not happen





So if someone were describing a culture in which these things really are accurate descriptions, is recognizing these things therefore racist? Again, you may disagree with his take, but you're arguing that the mere existence of his take is inherently the same problem as described. If recognizing these traits in a population is itself displaying those same traits, how can anyone ever accept that these negative attributes exist? ...If you and he are both right, then only racists and bigots can spot racism and bigotry.

The ifs are the important words there. Forsetti doesn't explore what he means by racism, and the support he gives for his cultural description is mostly anecdotal. Recognising the traits would be objective comment without a value judgement necessarily intended, if it were reasoned and supported with relevant verification. Recognising the traits without reasons or proof is actually not recognition at all: it's an expression of irrational dislike, which would be a manifestation of racism. By extension, I share Forsetti's frustration with the True Believers. Trying to get to the bottom (genuinely, not as a baiting exercise) of what they believe and why never ends well.
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« Reply #25 on: Nov 25, 2016, 09:49AM »

Sorry, don't know how to multi-quote.
 
...closed-mindedness, racism, presumed superiority over other demographics, anger when reality fails to comply with one's dogmas ... do these kinds of traits really require refutations?

Yes. The onus is on the proponent to persuade the audience. Or has a definitive list of good things and bad things been made while I wasn't paying attention?
As I wrote immediately after the quoted bit there:
You may disagree with Forsetti's characterizations, but I'm not sure it's reasonable to argue that the traits he's describing require refutation.
 
Forsetti isn't suggesting the mere fact that they pursue their own interests is a problem, it's the interests they really pursue and how they pursue them. Again, you're arguing against a straw man here.

I think you've missed the hidden premises in Forsetti's enthymeme. There are several.

1.  ...they are the problem with [my idea of] progress and will always be because their belief systems are constructed against it.
2. [my idea of] progress is good and should happen
3. anything that impedes progress also causes badness
4. badness should not be caused
5. their belief systems impede progress
6. therefore their belief systems cause badness and should not happen
You're arguing against definitions of basic terms and concepts now, not the points Forsetti made. This is the nuclear option for avoiding the actual issues. Forsetti's "hidden premises", as you're presenting them, are basically that bad is bad and good is good--that sort of thing. I suspect you're mistaking disagreements with "hidden premises" here. In other words, I suspect that your argument is with his take on fly-over America, not whether the standard definitions of terms should be applied--i.e. that bad is bad (negative, shouldn't be caused) and good is good (positive, should happen).
 
So if someone were describing a culture in which these things really are accurate descriptions, is recognizing these things therefore racist? Again, you may disagree with his take, but you're arguing that the mere existence of his take is inherently the same problem as described. If recognizing these traits in a population is itself displaying those same traits, how can anyone ever accept that these negative attributes exist? ...If you and he are both right, then only racists and bigots can spot racism and bigotry.

The ifs are the important words there. Forsetti doesn't explore what he means by racism, and the support he gives for his cultural description is mostly anecdotal. Recognising the traits would be objective comment without a value judgement necessarily intended, if it were reasoned and supported with relevant verification. Recognising the traits without reasons or proof is actually not recognition at all: it's an expression of irrational dislike, which would be a manifestation of racism. By extension, I share Forsetti's frustration with the True Believers. Trying to get to the bottom (genuinely, not as a baiting exercise) of what they believe and why never ends well.
Again, You may disagree with Forsetti's characterizations, but I'm not sure it's reasonable to argue that the traits he's describing require refutation. You're just stating that disagreement may exist, and complaining that Forsetti hasn't somehow addressed them all (or maybe only yours). The only actual objections you've posted amount to the complaint that Forsetti hasn't proven that bad is bad or good is good. That's just trying to add artificial layers surrounding the alleged disagreement rather than making your case for it. It suggests you don't really have much of anything to support your actual disagreement, so you're resorting to Forsetti hasn't established that bad is bad or that good is good. You're going to need to present your actual disagreement with his points if you want to actually disagree with them rather than to just say that there are disagreements. That's kind of inherent, but disagreements aren't inherently refutations. You can't just skip that whole arguing your case step.
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« Reply #26 on: Nov 25, 2016, 11:36AM »

Since this is an op-ed piece, not a scientific study, there really doesn't need to be any back-up or justification of his points.  This is his opinion based on his experience. 
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« Reply #27 on: Nov 25, 2016, 12:19PM »


You may disagree with Forsetti's characterizations, but I'm not sure it's reasonable to argue that the traits he's describing require refutation.
 You're arguing against definitions of basic terms and concepts now, not the points Forsetti made. This is the nuclear option for avoiding the actual issues. Forsetti's "hidden premises", as you're presenting them, are basically that bad is bad and good is good--that sort of thing. I suspect you're mistaking disagreements with "hidden premises" here. In other words, I suspect that your argument is with his take on fly-over America, not whether the standard definitions of terms should be applied--i.e. that bad is bad (negative, shouldn't be caused) and good is good (positive, should happen).
You may disagree with Forsetti's characterizations, but I'm not sure it's reasonable to argue that the traits he's describing require refutation.

You've misunderstood me. My objection is far simpler than the form of the good or the critique of pure reason.

Forsetti said that a group of people believes A, B and C. He also says that A, B and C prevent progress and that therefore the group is a problem.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with his description of A, B and C. The problem is that I don't know what he means by progress. I don't know why or by what mechanism A, B and C prevent it. He hasn't explained (except for a few economic and voting history points, which I thought were the most illuminating bits of the article).

Billy Cordova is right. The article isn't a serious socio-political piece. It's an entertainment piece, a self-deprecating polemic.

And it just occurred to me: is Forsetti including the Amish and the Mennonites in his critique of white, rural, Christian Americans being against progress? These people have their own ideas of what progress (towards their understanding of the meaning of life) is. We don't usually think of these people as being a problem do we?
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« Reply #28 on: Nov 25, 2016, 07:53PM »

Having grown up in a flyover state (almost the MOST flyover state, I think)

Nebraska?

I will agree that the article is one-sided.  But it does seem to explain the posts I've seen from our most strongly Conservative posters here: Jakeway, Dickerson, Norsworthy, and Badger.  I understand that Norsworthy and Jakeway don't live in "flyover country" -- they have the distinct disadvantage of being Conservatives in a relatively Liberal part of the country which probably galls them deeply.

I would entertain an explanation of exactly why the article writer has his head up his a**.  And not just "I know a Conservative and he's a nice guy" type of argument.  Give me a clear analysis of why you think he's all wet.

Let me explain my position: I currently live in the suburb of a relatively medium-sized city in the Midwest, so I can realte to people like Norsworthy and Jakeway to some extent. I see it everyday in my classmates, their parents, teachers, etc. and this was evident in our county voting map on the 8th. However, while I live in a suburb, I spend a lot of time visiting rural places (mostly in the Midwest). For example, a majority of the family on my mother's side is from Nebraska, so I'm in Nebraska at least 2 or 3 times per year. This means not only do I meet a lot of family (liberal, conservative, city-dwellers, farmers, you name it), but I've gotten to know a lot of their friends, girlfriends, neighbors, employees, etc. I also have family in Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, Texas, and Arkansas as far as I know. Granted, I know most of those aren't the "deep red" as Baron likes to call it, but I feel that I've gotten to know a fair range of people in most of these places.

A majority of my father's immediate family comes from a small town in northern Iowa, made up of mostly farmers, small business owners (including my grandfather and two of my uncles), and the like. After visiting several times every year, every year of my life, I think it's fair to say that I know about 50% of this town. By the way, 99% white and about 50% over the age of 40 as of 2000, and from my experience predominately Christian. The aforementioned relatives are also relatively wealthy; my grandparents own multiple houses (four I believe). Based on the people I know, I see no reason to believe that these people are racist or anti-Muslim, or whatever. My grandfather, for example, probably hires more latinos than anyone else in town for his construction company. Most of the people struggling to get by in this town are also white, not minorities as you might expect. But this is just one town, so  Don't know

Now, just to talk my grandpa up a bit: he dropped out of high school at 17 to marry my grandma (who proceeded to finish high school, but never pursued further education), then began immediately working for a local contractor in town. About 10 years later, he started his own company, which has thrived to this day. According to multiple sources, my grandparents are some of the wealthiest people in the area (can't confirm, they don't like to talk about money). This all just goes to show, my grandfather rose from nothing (in a family of seven kids), with no high school diploma, to build a successful business and succeed despite the modern economy. No amount of hardship can keep you from succeeding, he proved that to me. These are the values I was raised by; he inspired my opinions. Also, he is the perfect example for the stereotypical conservative today, but I can assure you is nothing like the man described in the article.
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« Reply #29 on: Nov 25, 2016, 08:37PM »

Well, Burgerbob comes from Wyoming.  Deep red and very Conservative.  Home of Dick Cheney.

As to your story, I think the only kind of business you can succeed at with little education nowadays is Home Construction.  It's a small business and doesn't need support staff like Accountants and Architects nor does it need sophisticated management like Cordova Construction down in Nacogdotches, TX.

Also, at the time your grandfather was learning his trade there was a building boom all over the country.  Try doing that in 2005 and you get overextended, resulting in bankruptcy when the housing prices crash as they did in 2007.  Try building your business in 2010 and it's much harder since there isn't as much real estate sales.

In the "Good Old Days" we had Union jobs in Automotive, Appliance Manufacture (ever hear of a town called Amana?), and many other businesses.  Problem is those jobs that require little education have vanished.  Some have been replaced by robots, and some of the manufacturing has gone to Asia where workers get for a week what someone in Amana would get in an hour.  I think the Trumpians are looking for those high paying, High School education jobs, although they seem to disfavor Unions (who got them those high salaries).  Nowadays to get $25 an hour you need at least a 2 year degree in something like Numerical Control Technology.  I don't like it either, but no President in the last 25 years has had a policy to generate good paying jobs.
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« Reply #30 on: Nov 25, 2016, 09:42PM »

You've misunderstood me. My objection is far simpler than the form of the good or the critique of pure reason.
 
Forsetti said that a group of people believes A, B and C. He also says that A, B and C prevent progress and that therefore the group is a problem.
 
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with his description of A, B and C. The problem is that I don't know what he means by progress. I don't know why or by what mechanism A, B and C prevent it. He hasn't explained (except for a few economic and voting history points, which I thought were the most illuminating bits of the article).
I think if you've been paying attention to US politics at all (like his target audience) then you have all of the subtext. That's not to say you should have been, just that if you're very aware of the "culture war" most of this is old hat. In fact even if you're not familiar with the current US culture war these same basic issues, more or less, have been raised between conservatives and liberals for about as long as there have been conservatives and liberals.
 
In the current US culture war "progressive" = liberal. The pattern of history also consistently and overall and on probably all major issues keeps putting progressives on its right side and conservatives on the wrong or anti-progress side. I'm not sure these contentions you're raising are as valid as they may at first seem. That doesn't necessarily mean Forsetti's article is solid either though. It clearly is an opinion piece.
 
Billy Cordova is right. The article isn't a serious socio-political piece. It's an entertainment piece, a self-deprecating polemic.
I'd put it in-between a serious political piece and pure entertainment. It's a step or three above what tends to pass for news on the right, for example--Limbaugh and Hannity et al ...
 
And it just occurred to me: is Forsetti including the Amish and the Mennonites in his critique of white, rural, Christian Americans being against progress? These people have their own ideas of what progress (towards their understanding of the meaning of life) is. We don't usually think of these people as being a problem do we?
No, it's safe to say he's not talking about the Amish or the Mennonites. There aren't many of them for starters, but it's mostly that they don't participate in outside society (i.e. they don't vote), since he was talking about voters and political activities.
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« Reply #31 on: Nov 26, 2016, 06:05AM »

The Amish and Mennonites also don't try to legislate their beliefs onto others.  They play by the rules they have to and just let the rest go on by them.  Funny, they realize that a gay marriage doesn't do anything to them. They also tend to keep their complaints silent.

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« Reply #32 on: Nov 26, 2016, 06:52AM »

The Amish and Mennonites also don't try to legislate their beliefs onto others.  They play by the rules they have to and just let the rest go on by them.  Funny, they realize that a gay marriage doesn't do anything to them. They also tend to keep their complaints silent.

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« Reply #33 on: Nov 26, 2016, 07:26AM »

Nebraska?

Let me explain my position: I currently live in the suburb of a relatively medium-sized city in the Midwest, so I can realte to people like Norsworthy and Jakeway to some extent. I see it everyday in my classmates, their parents, teachers, etc. and this was evident in our county voting map on the 8th. However, while I live in a suburb, I spend a lot of time visiting rural places (mostly in the Midwest). For example, a majority of the family on my mother's side is from Nebraska, so I'm in Nebraska at least 2 or 3 times per year. This means not only do I meet a lot of family (liberal, conservative, city-dwellers, farmers, you name it), but I've gotten to know a lot of their friends, girlfriends, neighbors, employees, etc. I also have family in Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, Texas, and Arkansas as far as I know. Granted, I know most of those aren't the "deep red" as Baron likes to call it, but I feel that I've gotten to know a fair range of people in most of these places.

A majority of my father's immediate family comes from a small town in northern Iowa, made up of mostly farmers, small business owners (including my grandfather and two of my uncles), and the like. After visiting several times every year, every year of my life, I think it's fair to say that I know about 50% of this town. By the way, 99% white and about 50% over the age of 40 as of 2000, and from my experience predominately Christian. The aforementioned relatives are also relatively wealthy; my grandparents own multiple houses (four I believe). Based on the people I know, I see no reason to believe that these people are racist or anti-Muslim, or whatever. My grandfather, for example, probably hires more latinos than anyone else in town for his construction company. Most of the people struggling to get by in this town are also white, not minorities as you might expect. But this is just one town, so  Don't know

Now, just to talk my grandpa up a bit: he dropped out of high school at 17 to marry my grandma (who proceeded to finish high school, but never pursued further education), then began immediately working for a local contractor in town. About 10 years later, he started his own company, which has thrived to this day. According to multiple sources, my grandparents are some of the wealthiest people in the area (can't confirm, they don't like to talk about money). This all just goes to show, my grandfather rose from nothing (in a family of seven kids), with no high school diploma, to build a successful business and succeed despite the modern economy. No amount of hardship can keep you from succeeding, he proved that to me. These are the values I was raised by; he inspired my opinions. Also, he is the perfect example for the stereotypical conservative today, but I can assure you is nothing like the man described in the article.

Being from Iowa, there is a 50/50% chance your grandparents don't fit the model outlined in the article. But, the truth remains that better than 50% of the folks in "flyover" country consistently vote for economic policies which are directly counter to their own interests. Supply-side trickle down policies and corporate friendly tax codes have been the single biggest factor in the stagnation and deterioration of the economies of those red states, and yet they continue to vote in the party for whom those policies are gospel. Add in the "Christian" social aspect, and virtually everything the writer claims is accurate for a majority of the folks outside of urban centers in this country. Understand that is a spectrum. It is less true for some than others, but it is true to some extent for virtually everyone of the folks that voted for Trump to win this election.
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« Reply #34 on: Nov 26, 2016, 09:51AM »

I was raised in a suburb of San Francisco--left there for the Army already sentimental about missing my homeland. I've lived in CA and GA with a little back and forth, and I've lived in Athens and a rural neighboring town immediately to the North of Athens for the last 19 years.
 
I live in rural GA and work at UGA--a major university in a Deep Blue island in the middle of the Deep Red. My wife is a doctor in a rural area nearby. Next month I'll have spent the same amount of time living in GA as I have CA (as much as I like Athens, I've got to fix that). This has given me a direct, close up view of the contrast between the more urban/suburban life and the more rural angle from a range of subcultures. I've counted among my friends military types of most services from privates to field grade officers, "leg" troops to Rangers to Green Berets, working class, deeply religious, casually religious, non-religious, anti-religious, white and blue collar types, librarians, library paraprofessionals, professors, doctors, lawyers, service and housekeeping industry workers, cops, firefighters, medics, restaurant and bar owners and managers, bartenders, IT pros, CEOs, small business owners, amateur and pro musicians, construction workers, avid sport shooters, mechanics, FedEx drivers, tech school students, university undergrads, grad students, and both cultural outsiders and insiders at all of these socioeconomic levels and stations--black, white, Asian, Indian ...
 
This is the kind of social and cultural diversity you get to enjoy both in a major world cultural center in CA and at a major Southern university in GA, and it's been enlightening in several ways (I'm sure I'm not the only one in here who's had this kind of diverse experience with other humans though). As a white, military-looking type with a construction background, while in the South, until I demonstrate otherwise, I've quite often been presumed to share the basic local sentiments that Forsetti describes (I wouldn't take them to the extent he does though). I take advantage of these sorts of things because I've always enjoyed people in both social and pseudo-academic ways--I'm a huge fan of my fellow humans (even the deeply flawed ones), and I really enjoy studying them (I studied a little psychology and a fair amount of sociology and anthropology in college--at 8 different tech schools, colleges and universities in CA and GA due to my much more mobile early adulthood).
 
My wife was raised mostly in central GA (Fort Valley) and she went to her high school's first integrated prom in the '80s. When visiting Columbus churches shortly after arriving at Ft. Benning, my first permanent duty station, people expressed sentiments in no uncertain terms such as that there'd be quite a strong negative reaction if a black person showed up at the church, and that women need to be treated largely as children by their their Christian boyfriends or husbands (i.e. that the man in the relationship should screen movies for moral content for the woman--that sort of thing ... more false consensus effect by the way). In my Engineering unit my XO (an Army lieutenant in uniform) got the reply "Boy, you'd better just get back in your car and get outta here while you can." when he stopped at a gas station on his way to morning formation trying to make sure he wasn't off course (he was on a long drive from visiting relatives or a friends). When the matter came up later some of my fellow troops thought that was entirely appropriate and were proud to be from Southern communities that would allegedly treat a black man out after dark basically the same.
 
I experienced very similar sentiments when I went through a local EMS program, though medics are some of the finest group of human beings I've ever had the privilege to associate with. The racism they expressed was very shallow--would typically disappear at the slightest hint of seriousness (remnants of Southern socialization). I experience racism and anti-intellectualism and the presumption of Christian superiority most in dealing with locals off campus (and some on campus--i.e. manifestations of Poe's Law in which I thought I was joking quite obviously but perceived as serious by "fellow" believers--generally when dealing with more blue collar/labor staff, but on campus it's relatively rare, regardless)--declarative judgments about The Blacks or The Unchurched and that sort of thing. When I was at Macon College several of the Humanities faculty from local areas discussed these kinds of sentiments in class--it's a big part of Southern literature, most notably William Faulkner and Flannery O'Connor.
 
My sister has lived in the Cincinnati area for most of her life, and she's had some similar experiences with these basic sentiments. She's more upper class though--she was a high level exec at Procter & Gamble until her early pseudo-retirement. We also see these sentiments expressed and discussed and criticized in all forms of art. None of this is new material to anyone, much less anyone at all familiar with US culture. I haven't seen it expressed so directly and frankly (and soberly) as Forsetti has in a while though.
 
These sentiments, usually more subtle and at least I think generally not so extreme, are ubiquitous in my experience of the South, mostly outside of Athens/UGA and a couple of other exceptions, and the racial divisions are still pretty stark. They even showed up among educated Southerners--several my wife's fellow Med School students at Mercer expressed more subtle racism, and a few even stated directly such as that black people aren't trustworthy and are less intelligent (I've generally gotten push back, often forcefully indignant, at least initially, when I make corrections like less educated on average, maybe, but not less intelligent than white people on average). My Southern extended family expresses some of this kind of sentiment even though there's hearteningly obvious internal resistance in the younger generations (as if they're saying what the think they're expected to say but they're uncomfortable with it). The "Greatest Generation" types offer racist sentiments pretty overtly thogh. My step father-in-law still casually used the N word to refer to African Americans while he was still with us. For his age and culture he was pretty progressive about that sort of thing though. He was a good, kind man--I liked him a lot.
 
So I think regarding Forsetti's piece, the real question is how much his depiction actually applies to flyover American culture, and to what extent. Those are quite significant and entirely valid questions and criticisms. But I think arguing that these sentiments aren't actually an issue at all--that they don't represent flyover America at all--is naive and/or denial, perhaps unless in reference to younger generations, in which case I hope the notion it's not very applicable is true. I've definitely seen a much improved attitude about a lot of this develop over the years among the undergrad students we employ in my department at UGA and in what I hear of my coworkers kids and such--good stuff!
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« Reply #35 on: Nov 26, 2016, 06:00PM »

I've never met any but I like them already.
They aren't all peaches and ice cream.  They won't own any powered tools, but they are often more than happy to borrow yours on a job and feign ignorance of how to do any maintenance on them.  Recently, they are getting into solar electricity.  Things are a changin everywhere.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #36 on: Nov 27, 2016, 06:14PM »

This whole article was RIDICULOUSLY one-sided. As someone who has spent a lot of time in Rural America himself, you would have to be quite imaginative to find this in 99% of people in small-town America. Or maybe I'm just dense.

-The Educated Conservative

99% of anything is hard to find an area, but I can certainly say I have lived in a number of rural areas now where the idea the author discusses was certainly prevalent and a mainstay of the town. Can't say I've been in a place where the author was wrong yet.

The issue I would take with the article is the focus on justification per scripture. To be clear, most of what social conservatives attack is not in scripture... they just want to read it in there. And in truth, many of the attempts and efforts to push their agenda are against scripture. Jesus OFFERED... never forced. And in truth, he was largely killed by those of the same religion who did not like his different takes and new beliefs. And yet, those who claim to follow him do so by violating the very teachings he offered.


Otherwise... I saw a baptist church from Goldsboro, NC send a mission trip to help folks in Forest City, NC. Two weeks later (it was mission trip season), a baptist church in Forest City, NC sent a mission trip to Goldsboro, NC. Neither group knew about the other. They just wanted to help other communities in need, and neither wanted to recognize their own community was in great need. Or if they did... they couldn't find much in them to help in their community on a regular basis. An odd bit of self delusion and familiarity.
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« Reply #37 on: Nov 27, 2016, 06:26PM »

Here's a fun map:
http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/index.html

We just really aren't much of an integrated country.
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Russ White

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« Reply #38 on: Nov 27, 2016, 07:46PM »

Here's a fun map:
http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/index.html

We just really aren't much of an integrated country.

That's freakin' cool!
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« Reply #39 on: Nov 28, 2016, 05:59AM »

Yep.  You are just dense

Why is this acceptable behavior from a moderator? First thread I read upon returning to the United States after two weeks of thoughtful political discussions with brass players from abroad and this turd of a comment is here, pinched off by someone who is supposed to uphold the TOS of the site. Bravo.
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