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Baron von Bone
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« on: Nov 26, 2016, 10:36AM »

NYT: How Fake News Goes Viral: A Case Study
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« Reply #1 on: Nov 26, 2016, 11:12AM »

Even worse: there are actual programs that can spread a false story (and even make one up!). 

Just confirms a lot of the stuff we have been discussing in other threads.  People today want to believe what they already suspect and any refutation is automatically discarded.
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« Reply #2 on: Nov 26, 2016, 11:18AM »

Every advance in communication has been heralded as a means to bring us all to greater mutual understanding and acceptance by removing barriers and promoting free communication, but it never works out that way.  :(
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« Reply #3 on: Nov 28, 2016, 06:48AM »

you guys see how CNN got trolled over supposedly showing half an hour of pornography? Other media sites jumped on the reporting bandwagon and CNN even apologized before it was revealed to have been an utter fabrication.
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« Reply #4 on: Dec 02, 2016, 05:30AM »

An example of faux nuze not surprising brought to us by Faux Nuze.
 
Facts No Longer Exist[/quote] (the "value" many "values voters" actually revere).
 
For those who are actually interested in vetting your "facts".
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« Reply #5 on: Dec 14, 2016, 02:32PM »

Funny stuff. Four links in this thread come from the Washington Post (3) and the New York Times (1). Both purveyors of the very thing they're cautioning you about.

This sudden recent moral panic about “fake news” was ramped up by a November 24 Washington Post article called “Russian propaganda effort helped spread ‘fake news’ during election, experts say.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/russian-propaganda-effort-helped-spread-fake-news-during-election-experts-say/2016/11/24/793903b6-8a40-4ca9-b712-716af66098fe_story.html?utm_term=.89c4895ef63d

The Washington Post is a highly esteemed American journalistic institution. Along with achieving notoriety when one of its reporters won a Pulitzer Prize for a completely fakehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Cooke story about an eight-year-old black heroin addict, its reporters were also members of the 2008 “JournoList” cabal that privately colluded to help elect Barack Obama. Proving that it is indeed an objective and trustworthy news outlet rather than a DNC mouthpiece, the Post recently hired twenty reportershttp://www.washingtonexaminer.com/woodward-20-wapo-reporters-dig-dirt-on-trump-every-phase-of-his-life/article/2591021 to dig up dirt on Donald Trump during the presidential campaign and apparently zero reporters to investigate Hillary Clinton.

In their recent attempt at a hard-hitting “fake news” exposé—which The Hillhttp://origin-nyi.thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/media/307886-jeff-bezos-owns-the-washington-post-and-the-journalism-its described as “perhaps the shoddiest piece of feature writing since Rolling Stone published its blatantly false story about a campus rape at the University of Virginia” and which Rolling Stonehttp://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/washington-post-blacklist-story-is-shameful-disgusting-w452543 called “Shameful and Disgusting”—predictably geeky-lookinghttps://images.c-span.org/Files/a8f/304543-m.jpg/Thumbs/height.630.no_border.width.1200.jpg writer Craig Timberg cites an anonymous group calling itself PropOrNot, allegedly comprised of “nonpartisan” researchers who just so happen to have an axe to grind with “muthafuckin’ fascists.” The group has compiled a blacklist of 200 or so websites they accuse of being either actively complicit with, or “useful idiots” of, Russian propagandists. No evidence is offered for how or why any of the content that these sites publish would qualify as Russian propaganda, just as none of PropOrNot’s members are identified or their credentials scrutinized. Still, many other MSM outlets ran with the Post’s story like the dupes they are and were apparently born to be.

The venerable New York Times is also up in arms about the “Threat of Fake News”http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/07/business/media/medias-next-challenge-overcoming-the-threat-of-fake-news.html that may, as Hillary Clinton suggested, lead to the loss of human lives.

The New York Times is a highly regarded American daily newspaper. While Joseph Stalin was purposely starving millions of Ukrainians to death, a Times reporter won a Pulitzer for denyinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor#Walter_Duranty that it was happening. More recently, the paper was forced to fire a reporter for “routinely”http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/05/10/ny.times.reporter/ fabricating his articles. And during the presidential campaign, a Times scribe wondered out loud about whether reporters should dispense with normal constraints such as “objectivity”http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/08/business/balance-fairness-and-a-proudly-provocative-presidential-candidate.html when dealing with the Rising Orange Monster Named Donald Trump.

At this late date, anyone who fails to realize that the US government and its media accomplices generate fake news as a matter of course is a dim bulb indeed. The heroic Church Committee of the mid-1970s revealed that the CIA’s Operation Mockingbirdhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird had purposely infiltrated and manipulated hundreds of American media outlets. When Hillary Clinton spoke about “fake news” last week, she encouraged the passage of the 2017 National Defense Authorization Act, which allocates millions in order to “track foreign propaganda and disinformation efforts.”

The American deep state and the media institutions that slavishly prop it up appear to have realized that they no longer have absolute control over the flow of information, and this seems to upset them greatly. All these phony public conniptions about “fake news” are merely a collective case of the vapors among ruling elites alarmed at the fact that they can no longer dictate what everyone thinks.

Sure, there’s plenty of fake news out there, from every deluded fanatic perched at every conceivable ideological angle. But what makes an unregulated Internet great is that if you have even a chipmunk-sized brain, you can sift through multiple sources on any given topic and eventually discern between what’s real and what’s fake.

It would be a great mistake to allow the Powers that Be to erect some new Ministry of Truth that determines what’s true and what’s a lie. I can’t remember the last war they started that wasn’t based on a lie. These lying creeps know all about fake news—they invented the art form.
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« Reply #6 on: Dec 15, 2016, 07:36PM »

What happened to the condescending pseudo-intellectual comment that was here the other day?
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« Reply #7 on: Dec 15, 2016, 07:45PM »

Well, you had to go back 49 years to find a false story in the New York Times but we really only need to go back about 4 days to find one on Fox.

Talk about condescending attitudes, you have one also. :-P
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« Reply #8 on: Dec 15, 2016, 09:39PM »

No..........started there ..went to 2003 and 2016.

Sorry......I can't take any of you seriously anymore. I'm out of here.
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« Reply #9 on: Dec 16, 2016, 06:39AM »

Anyone with a chipmonk sized brain can do a quick search and tell if news is fake? Really? By what, searching if other sources are reporting the same thing? In the fake news world, many copy the others... so that will almost immediately return in multiple returns. Just look back to the CNN broadcasting porn instead of anthony bordaine for 30 minutes... It started from a twitter post, was in multiple news sites including the guardian and cnn itself apologized for it... all before it was proven false.

These days, there are so many different sources out there pushing fake news and so few pushing fact checking, it isn't like looking up a rumor on snopes a decade ago. If you search for a fake news story, you will likely get a first page of search results all having their own slightly worded version of the same fake story and nothing yet to say it's fake.

So pray tell, what is the surefire way to simply and easily catch any false news?
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« Reply #10 on: Dec 16, 2016, 07:28AM »

Fake News == CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABS, NBC, NYT, AP, Reuters, MSN, Yahoo, AOL, Google, Wash Post, Media Matters, KOSdaily, Politico, Fakebook, and all their surrogates that report everything they hear from this list.

Now, this new push by Facebook to censor the news of their posters is laughable.

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« Reply #11 on: Dec 16, 2016, 07:38AM »

Fake News == CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABS, NBC, NYT, AP, Reuters, MSN, Yahoo, AOL, Google, Wash Post, Media Matters, KOSdaily, Politico, Fakebook, and all their surrogates that report everything they hear from this list.

Can you share which sources you consider reliable sources of non-fake news?  Are there any?
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« Reply #12 on: Dec 16, 2016, 07:43AM »

Can you share which sources you consider reliable sources of non-fake news?  Are there any?

No, I'm going to keep it a secret. LOL!
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« Reply #13 on: Dec 16, 2016, 07:45AM »

Dan, the only reliable source of news for Dusty is his own head.  If the story doesn't agree with what he wants/thinks, it's false. Evil

Sometimes I think Jakeway goes the same way.
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« Reply #14 on: Dec 16, 2016, 08:02AM »

No, I'm going to keep it a secret. LOL!

No, but really.  That wasn't a LOL question.  What sources do you consider reliable?
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« Reply #15 on: Dec 16, 2016, 10:09AM »

No, but really.  That wasn't a LOL question.  What sources do you consider reliable?

Well, to show some of the sources DD posts around here... WND, The Daily Caller, National Review, American Thinker, etc...

Basically sources that confirm his point of view.
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« Reply #16 on: Dec 16, 2016, 11:19AM »

Dan, the only reliable source of news for Dusty is his own head.  If the story doesn't agree with what he wants/thinks, it's false. Evil

Sometimes I think Jakeway goes the same way.

Bruce, don't make me give  you a strike!
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« Reply #17 on: Dec 16, 2016, 11:26AM »

I'd prefer to hear what DD has to say, not so much what others have to say about him. If he chooses to say nothing, then that also speaks volumes.
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« Reply #18 on: Dec 16, 2016, 01:40PM »

Dan, I don't expect anyone that is a leftist liberal agree with my choice, but Realclearpolitics has articles from both points of view. I read articles from all the sources that I listed, that is why I can say with confidence that they will support anything the democrats wish. They offered up nothing but opposition research on Trump in the general election, and ignored anything negative towards Hillary, except maybe a few softballs just to make it look even.

There is plenty of evidence out there, like the podesta emails for instance. They showed the collaboration of the media and the democratic party to make sure that Bernie wouldn't win the nomination. You would never know that this collaboration existed if you depended only on the news sources I mentioned.

I'm sure that is why some disgruntled liberals that were strong Bernie supporters leaked the emails to WikiLeaks to begin with. If they sent them to any of the ones I mentioned, the story would have been filed in file 13.

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« Reply #19 on: Dec 16, 2016, 01:49PM »

I really find it hard to believe the Republicans were not doing the same shenanigans (albeit unsuccessfully) against Trump during the Primaries.  After all, he was a registered Democrat  only a couple of years prior.  Of course Putin and the Russians did not need to sink his candidacy, so...
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« Reply #20 on: Dec 16, 2016, 02:15PM »

What happened to the condescending pseudo-intellectual comment that was here the other day?

It appears that post was removed. No point ... as the simple but unnecessarily obvious comment I wrote stated.
 
Is it that the disapproval was traumatic for you? Do you need someone to give you a hug emoji or something like that?
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« Reply #21 on: Dec 16, 2016, 02:22PM »

Anyone with a chipmonk sized brain can do a quick search and tell if news is fake? Really?

Of course you can.
 
You just define "fake" to mean that which I don't like (just don't put it that way of course) and you don't even have to do any searching, except for the fact that you have to do something in order to make it seem more plausible to yourself ... or if anyone starts to ask questions, of course, because you have to be able to claim something that's at least not overtly laughable, even though, as we've seen many times in here, the lack of any real, functional understanding of what is in fact overtly laughable can trip you up.
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« Reply #22 on: Dec 16, 2016, 02:29PM »

What happened to the condescending pseudo-intellectual comment that was here the other day?

The Baron erased all the content and I deleted the empty post.
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« Reply #23 on: Dec 16, 2016, 02:39PM »

This is an oldie but goodie!

Walter Cronkite’s reporting on Tet was sketchy at best, if not outright lies. 
His role in the Vietnam defeat was  reported as if it were a highlight of his career. Yet, his misreporting helped create the conditions for a premature U.S. military withdrawal, leading to the loss of the lives of 58,000 Americans in vain, not to mention the millions of additional deaths caused in Vietnam and Cambodia by the Communists.

Cronkite’s public verdict that the 1968 Tet offensive was a “defeat” for the U.S. was also seen as a turning point in American support for the war. Cronkite falsely claimed that the Vietcong had held the American embassy for six hours and that the offensive “went on for two months.” The facts show that Tet was actually a major defeat for the communist enemy.
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« Reply #24 on: Dec 16, 2016, 04:19PM »

Dan, I don't expect anyone that is a leftist liberal agree with my choice, but Realclearpolitics has articles from both points of view. I read articles from all the sources that I listed, that is why I can say with confidence that they will support anything the democrats wish. They offered up nothing but opposition research on Trump in the general election, and ignored anything negative towards Hillary, except maybe a few softballs just to make it look even.

There is plenty of evidence out there, like the podesta emails for instance. They showed the collaboration of the media and the democratic party to make sure that Bernie wouldn't win the nomination. You would never know that this collaboration existed if you depended only on the news sources I mentioned.

I'm sure that is why some disgruntled liberals that were strong Bernie supporters leaked the emails to WikiLeaks to begin with. If they sent them to any of the ones I mentioned, the story would have been filed in file 13.

Interesting site, thanks for sharing that. I don't have the time right to look at it closely, but at first glance it appears to be more of an aggregating site than a news source. I will dig deeper soon.

In that context, I don't think you have identified the sources that lead you to your conclusions - the only sources that you have cited are ones with which you disagree.  For instance, on what are you basing your analysis of the "Podesta emails"?  Can you link me to a site or two? 
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« Reply #25 on: Dec 16, 2016, 09:47PM »

Conservatives definitely didn't want Trump.

However, there has been a total opposition research published against Trump since the first debate.

This Podesto leak is truth revealed. It is a good thing that the voters get to be aware of truth regarding Hillary. If they chose not to vote for for Hillary because of the truth, then that is a positive thing. Right? Also, that is her fault.

She got caught cheating and rigging the primary. You guys still support her?

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« Reply #26 on: Dec 16, 2016, 10:06PM »

How did she rig the primary?  By usurping Bernie's ideas?  By campaigning against Bernie?  I didn't see any voting machine rigging or voter suppression.

Campaigns are called that because they are a form of war.  You are campaigning against the other candidates on the field and it's a war.  Any advantage you can gain legally is good.  That excludes getting debate questions in advance and I agree that was not kosher.  But it would not be enough to defeat the other candidates per se.

Republicans constantly harping on Benghazi, harping on Bill Clinton's infidelity, and the endless investigations into confidential information in 60,000 e-mails on her private server (yes, there were actually about a dozen).  This is what brought down Clinton.  She wasn't as pathological a liar as Trump, but he got away with it and she didn't.  Add to that her gender and the fact that she ran on Obama's record when there were still a lot of bigots out there who wanted to punish the "Uppity Ni**er" and Hillary was doomed.

I hope you Trump supporters are happy.  And also taking Russian lessons since we are going to be a SSR soon.

Not to mention all the A-Rab suicide bombers coming here because Trump's ambassador to Israel nominee wants to move the embassy to Jerusalem and help Israel annex the West Bank.  Guaranteed to make the Arab folks in the Middle East happy.
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« Reply #27 on: Dec 16, 2016, 10:50PM »

How did she rig the primary?  By usurping Bernie's ideas?  By campaigning against Bernie?  I didn't see any voting machine rigging or voter suppression.

Campaigns are called that because they are a form of war.  You are campaigning against the other candidates on the field and it's a war.  Any advantage you can gain legally is good.  That excludes getting debate questions in advance and I agree that was not kosher.  But it would not be enough to defeat the other candidates per se.

Republicans constantly harping on Benghazi, harping on Bill Clinton's infidelity, and the endless investigations into confidential information in 60,000 e-mails on her private server (yes, there were actually about a dozen).  This is what brought down Clinton.  She wasn't as pathological a liar as Trump, but he got away with it and she didn't.  Add to that her gender and the fact that she ran on Obama's record when there were still a lot of bigots out there who wanted to punish the "Uppity Ni**er" and Hillary was doomed.

I hope you Trump supporters are happy.  And also taking Russian lessons since we are going to be a SSR soon.

Not to mention all the A-Rab suicide bombers coming here because Trump's ambassador to Israel nominee wants to move the embassy to Jerusalem and help Israel annex the West Bank.  Guaranteed to make the Arab folks in the Middle East happy.

Your remarks are so laughable.
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« Reply #28 on: Dec 17, 2016, 04:51AM »


Your remarks are so laughable.

Here is the remark that is so laughable. THe amount of "opposition research" published against Trump was miniscule when compared to the volume of free, uncontested airtime he was given by all those "fake news" networks the bubble people so like to mindlessly demean.


However, there has been a total opposition research published against Trump since the first debate.


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« Reply #29 on: Dec 17, 2016, 06:20AM »

Interesting site, thanks for sharing that. I don't have the time right to look at it closely, but at first glance it appears to be more of an aggregating site than a news source. I will dig deeper soon.
Indeed. Though with an amazing (to me) amount of it coming not of news, but commentary, opinion, and editorials about the news of the day. Looking over the past few days, can't say that I really see a link that is actual news reporting about an event.


Conservatives definitely didn't want Trump.
Sure, as long as you ignore that conservatives push trump to be a large winner during the primaries early and often, to the point that they then got him nominated as their candidate, and then pushed him into office. They wanted Trump more than many bible based morals he so blatantly casts aside. So yes, as long as you ignore that they supported him through and through... of course they didn't want him.

However, there has been a total opposition research published against Trump since the first debate.
Sure, as long as you ignore all the free airtime and advertising he received, often with his supporters going on air to defend and support him at a rate far far higher than anyone else in either party received.

This Podesto leak is truth revealed. It is a good thing that the voters get to be aware of truth regarding Hillary. If they chose not to vote for for Hillary because of the truth, then that is a positive thing. Right? Also, that is her fault.

She got caught cheating and rigging the primary. You guys still support her?
She got caught rigging the primary? Wasn't that the DNC that was found to give a bit more favoritism to clinton than sanders, not surprising since sanders wasn't actually of their party. And wasn't that the same thing the RNC tried to do to candidates not trump, such as Bush, who was well favored and expected to do well given his connections and support with the establishment. Interesting how the actions of others someone then become clinton's actions. And how perceived faults on one side are hammered, and yet the same on the other side are brushed off and excused.
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« Reply #30 on: Dec 17, 2016, 06:44AM »

Interesting site, thanks for sharing that. I don't have the time right to look at it closely, but at first glance it appears to be more of an aggregating site than a news source. I will dig deeper soon.

In that context, I don't think you have identified the sources that lead you to your conclusions - the only sources that you have cited are ones with which you disagree.  For instance, on what are you basing your analysis of the "Podesta emails"?  Can you link me to a site or two? 

Here is one article from the leftist site Politico itself:

Podesta: 'I'm not happy about being hacked by the Russians'
By DANIEL STRAUSS 10/07/16 08:31 PM EDT

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/john-podesta-russian-hacking-229319


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« Reply #31 on: Dec 17, 2016, 06:53AM »

Here is the remark that is so laughable. THe amount of "opposition research" published against Trump was miniscule


"Trump Was Recorded in 2005 Bragging About Grabbing Women “by the P@$$y” posted as opposition research against Trump.

Megan Kelly on Fox News tore into Trump on the first primary debate, and I'm sure the liberals enjoyed every minute of it.

Whereas, Hillary was treated with kid gloves in the debates.

If Podesta's emails were no big deal, then what's with all this crying about Russia spoiling the election?


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« Reply #32 on: Dec 17, 2016, 06:56AM »

I'm curious DD, are you aware that Julian Assange had a talk show on a russian "news" channel? A channel that the russian government itself has said was of "core strategic importance", is funded by the russian government, and is generally considered more of a propaganda outlet than a source of journalism?

https://www.rt.com/tags/the-julian-assange-show/

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« Reply #33 on: Dec 17, 2016, 07:18AM »

I'm curious DD, are you aware that Julian Assange had a talk show on a russian "news" channel? A channel that the russian government itself has said was of "core strategic importance", is funded by the russian government, and is generally considered more of a propaganda outlet than a source of journalism?

https://www.rt.com/tags/the-julian-assange-show/



No I didn't.

If what Julian publishes is propaganda and has no truth, then why do the liberals worry about what he published? Podesta read the emails that were leaked, and he didn't say that the emails were inaccurate and just propaganda. Nobody has. Because it is truth. It's a sad commentary that our MSM journalists don't do their jobs and hold both parties accountable. They are in the tank for the leftist liberals and do nothing but cover for them.

And even more sad is the people don't even really they are being punked by the MSM.

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« Reply #34 on: Dec 17, 2016, 07:57AM »

No I didn't.

If what Julian publishes is propaganda and has no truth, then why do the liberals worry about what he published?
It's a sad commentary that you think only liberals should worry. Otherwise, that question seems to indicate an unfamiliarity with the word "propaganda". So here:
 
Definition of propaganda
1 capitalized :  a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 :  the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 :  ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also :  a public action having such an effect

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propaganda

Podesta read the emails that were leaked, and he didn't say that the emails were inaccurate and just propaganda. Nobody has.
Umm.... check your own link about the story. Tweet from Podesta: "3. Don't have time to figure out which docs are real and which are faked..." ie, there are some real ones, yes, but not all.

So yes, he did say the emails were inaccurate.

It's a sad commentary that our MSM journalists don't do their jobs and hold both parties accountable.
Sounds like a commentary link from RealClearPolitics instead of any news or substance. Though I agree the main news sites failed... they went with viral reporting instead of actual content. However, that played to Trump's favor many fold over than Clitons'. We now have a reality show president elect as pushed by entertainment news.
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« Reply #35 on: Dec 17, 2016, 07:58AM »

Here is one article from the leftist site Politico itself:

Podesta: 'I'm not happy about being hacked by the Russians'
By DANIEL STRAUSS 10/07/16 08:31 PM EDT

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/john-podesta-russian-hacking-229319

Of course he's not happy.  I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with that link, which is nothing more than an iteration of some tweets by Podesta.  Do you have actual content of leaked emails, or can you point me to actual leaked content that would implicate Podesta in election rigging?


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« Reply #36 on: Dec 17, 2016, 08:28AM »

Is it propaganda when the details of the story are true?

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« Reply #37 on: Dec 17, 2016, 08:41AM »

Is it propaganda when the details of the story are true?


It's propaganda when the material is trying to convince you of a particular point of view.  You probably watch hours and hours of propaganda on television -- all of it trying to get you to buy something.  All advertising is propaganda.

You like sites like American Thinker because their propaganda is aimed at what you think.  I doubt Mother Jones would have similar propaganda, but often they have propaganda that is geared to the more Liberal among us.

The trick is to recognize when we are being bombarded with propaganda and when we are being given facts without slant and being asked to make our own decision.
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« Reply #38 on: Dec 17, 2016, 08:47AM »

If what Julian publishes is propaganda and has no truth, then why do the liberals worry about what he published?
It's a sad commentary that you think only liberals should worry.

It's more a demonstration of an utter lack of self-awareness and the rejection of one's own humanity (the complete failure to understand the nature of human brain ownership).
 
The most obvious answer is that there's a huge army of selectively vapid people who have been intensely trained from infancy that shirking all responsibility for what one believes is the highest virtue, and that defying such responsibility when it's too obvious to ignore is the highest demonstration of that virtue. Because people who are "successfully" raised with this intellectual "ethic" clearly either don't care what's real and true or have been trained to fundamentally re-define what that actually means, which is why defying intellectual responsibility is such an important ethic in this Alt-World they occupy.
 
If the rest of us had the option to not be intimately tied to this Army of Intellectual Dishonesty through our shared political setup we wouldn't care so much that they're so toxic to social, environmental, ethical and intellectual health, but we are--we can't just give them an island that they can completely destroy in every form and phase of human being without it effecting anyone else, so we have to care about even the most obvious and inane nonsense that shouldn't fool a remotely healthy 12 year old intellect into being so self-destructive, because as is painfully obvious to anyone whose view of the horizon isn't the walls of a small sand pit, their self-destructive, profoundly irresponsible intellectual posture has real world impact on everyone else, making it the most hostile form of hubris and narcissism that human nature can manage to accommodate, and it seems it can only manage to pull it off once it's sufficiently corrupted enough intellectually connected human grey matter.
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« Reply #39 on: Dec 17, 2016, 08:52AM »

It's propaganda when the material is trying to convince you of a particular point of view.  You probably watch hours and hours of propaganda on television -- all of it trying to get you to buy something.  All advertising is propaganda.
 
You like sites like American Thinker because their propaganda is aimed at what you think.  I doubt Mother Jones would have similar propaganda, but often they have propaganda that is geared to the more Liberal among us.
 
The trick is to recognize when we are being bombarded with propaganda and when we are being given facts without slant and being asked to make our own decision.

It's also important to be able to determine when the propaganda is aimed at a deceptive or an honest end. The Alt-Right just by-passes that whole issue by simply reframing it, and they've gotten so good at proactive perception that they can even fluidly, seamlessly navigate blatant and immediate self-refutations. This is when the corrupted group mind becomes seriously dangerous, as we're now seeing.
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« Reply #40 on: Dec 17, 2016, 08:55AM »

Is it propaganda when the details of the story are true?

Yes. You can read the dictionary definition in Bob's post above, and it doesn't define the term by truthfulness, nor does my dictionary.

I understand where you're going with this--as long as the emails were real, there's no harm in exposing them. But the private, internal emails of a campaign are not meant to be read by the public. They include frank assessments of the candidate's own weaknesses and vulnerabilities, discussion of strategy and polling, which undercuts the image of authenticity the candidate is trying to project, private dish about internal fighting in the campaign, and so forth. No campaign would fail to be hurt by release of this volume of emails.

If the're being selectively released by an interested party (in this case the Russians), for the benefit of only one side, then they are indeed propaganda. Again, re-read the definition.

Your argument rests on the idea that there was something terrible or disqualifying in the emails, but they were mostly mundane. It was the slow drip of stories, more unflattering than devastating, that dominated the late part of the campaign, that weakened Hillary's efforts.

There's no question that she made strategic errors that cost her votes, but that doesn't mean that the email leaks were not the deciding factor. Contrary to many comments, there can be more than one deciding factor in a close race, so deflecting comments about the email hacks with criticism of Hillary's campaign is a false dilemma. Both could have been deciding factors.

You still haven't explained how people are being 'punked' but the MSM. The CIA has a high degree of confidence that the Russians deliberately tampered with the election. The FBI now concurs, and the leadership in Congress, including GOP leaders, agrees that it should be investigated. How is the MSM being dishonest by reporting these facts?
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« Reply #41 on: Dec 17, 2016, 09:01AM »

How is the MSM being dishonest by reporting these facts?

They are, if you go by the infantile definition that's obviously operating in the mind of those who have the capacity to see it that way.
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« Reply #42 on: Dec 17, 2016, 02:00PM »



If the're being selectively released by an interested party (in this case the Russians), for the benefit of only one side, then they are indeed propaganda. Again, re-read the definition.



Then by your definition, the entire MSM is releasing propaganda just for the sake of one side. (Democrats)
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« Reply #43 on: Dec 17, 2016, 02:41PM »

Then by your definition, the entire MSM is releasing propaganda just for the sake of one side. (Democrats)

If that's what you think.

But I feel that your sites are pushing their own propaganda.  And it's much more pointed than what you call MSM.
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« Reply #44 on: Dec 17, 2016, 03:26PM »

Then by your definition, the entire MSM is releasing propaganda just for the sake of one side. (Democrats)

Exactly right, if that were true.

If that were true, then it would indeed be propaganda, because it's selected to benefit one agenda. I'll remind you that Fox News is part of the 'entire mainstream media', and I don't believe that they report for the primary benefit of Democrats.

But you've never managed to explain why the reporting of the CIA and FBI findings on this, or the reaction of GOP leadership in agreement, is propaganda, or inappropriate in any way.

If the CIA and FBI both report that their investigation indicates that Russians tampered with our elections, are you claiming the media shouldn't cover that? What would be the reaction if those findings were made and the 'MSM' (whatever that means) refused to acknowledge or cover them?

I've asked that question several times and you haven't managed to answer it yet.
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« Reply #45 on: Dec 17, 2016, 03:49PM »

I will note that the Russian hacking did not tamper with votes or voter rolls as far as we know).

What they did was to release negative information on one side and not the other.  And if you believe the Republicans are blameless and pure as the driven snow, I have some nice ocean front property to sell you -- in Utah.
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« Reply #46 on: Dec 17, 2016, 08:50PM »

So, you guys are arguing that Hillary lost because someone exposed truth to the voting public without her permission? or, that it is 'propaganda' if it's truthful information that Hillary didn't want exposed. And why didn't they expose something of equal value on Trump? Dang, that wasn't fair. He did brag about being able to grab women's body parts afterall, why didn't WikiLeaks leak something juicy on Trump? Geez.

We need a full investigation. This is some serious sh..stuff.   
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« Reply #47 on: Dec 17, 2016, 10:46PM »

...

We need a full investigation. This is some serious sh..stuff.   

Absolutely.  A full investigation into the business practices of a Network Engineer in Houston Evil Evil Evil Evil

Quite frankly, I'm astounded that some of the revelations about Trump didn't make a difference since they were substantially more serious than what was revealed about Clinton.
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« Reply #48 on: Dec 17, 2016, 11:58PM »

So, you guys are arguing that Hillary lost because someone exposed truth to the voting public without her permission? or, that it is 'propaganda' if it's truthful information that Hillary didn't want exposed..   

If, by 'you guys' you mean the CIA, the FBI, and the Republican leadership, then that's what 'you guys' are saying. 

They didn't just 'expose truth without permission.' They illegally hacked into an email account, and they tampered with our election. If you hacked someone's email account and got caught, you could be arrested for it. It doesn't become legal when it produces a result that you prefer.
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« Reply #49 on: Dec 18, 2016, 04:38AM »

THis is going to make a lot of heads exploded on the right, but it is accurate..............

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/12/16/trump-raises-specter-treason/zdwgXRuJBMChEXmX5kchhP/story.html
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« Reply #50 on: Dec 18, 2016, 07:19AM »

THis is going to make a lot of heads exploded on the right, but it is accurate..............

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/12/16/trump-raises-specter-treason/zdwgXRuJBMChEXmX5kchhP/story.html

 Yeah, RIGHT.

Pure Balderdash!

Counterpoint:

http://beta.hotair.com/archives/2016/12/18/democrats-already-accusing-trump-of-treason-a-month-before-he-takes-office/
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« Reply #51 on: Dec 18, 2016, 07:52AM »


Let's see.... one the one hand we have the centuries old, trusted, MSM Boston Globe. On the other we have the newly minted, FakeNews.com HotAir.com. Yep, you're equally credible. What a frakking joke this country has become.
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« Reply #52 on: Dec 18, 2016, 01:18PM »


You have to admit, the headline is kind of stupid. Is the author unaware that a person can be accused of treason as a private citizen?

The idea the 'Democrats' or the MSM are piling on to accuse Trump of treason is kind of boneheaded, too, considering that his evidence is one signed editorial in a single publication. This is why I don't read junk like this.
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« Reply #53 on: Dec 18, 2016, 05:17PM »

So, you guys are arguing that Hillary lost because someone exposed truth to the voting public without her permission? or, that it is 'propaganda' if it's truthful information that Hillary didn't want exposed.
What makes you think it's truthful? Has anyone confirmed it is indeed truthful?
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« Reply #54 on: Dec 18, 2016, 07:04PM »

What makes you think it's truthful? Has anyone confirmed it is indeed truthful?

In any event, it's been pointed out several times that the definition of 'propaganda' does not rest upon falsehood, which fact has clanged off of DDickerson's skull on every attempt, and will no doubt continue to do so.
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« Reply #55 on: Dec 18, 2016, 09:09PM »

I'm sure that Hillary was alarmed that facts about her 'escaped' even though the democrat party and the MSM did everything they could to cover for her.

Bottomline, she lost. Attacking people that exposed her for what she is kinda lame.

If you want investigations, lets investigate the illegals that voted in California. We know that California issues drivers licenses to illegals. We also know that If you take California out of the popular vote equation, then Trump wins the rest of the country by 1.4 million votes. That's right. We know that in California democrats are winning by larger and larger margins every election cycle. Much more than seen anywhere else in the country. Where are those democrat voters coming from? South of the border? Hmmmmmm..

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« Reply #56 on: Dec 19, 2016, 04:36AM »

It's still dishonesty even if you're good at lying to yourself first before trying to impose those lies on the outside world. In fact that just means the deceptive nature is deepened by the willful ignorance that's required to maintain it.
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« Reply #57 on: Dec 19, 2016, 04:39AM »

So bottomline, you have nothing except desire to put down a political enemy to say that the information was indeed "truthful".

If you want investigations, lets investigate the illegals that voted in California. We know that California issues drivers licenses to illegals.
They did. Their was no information to support Trump's claims of voter fraud, nor did he present any support himself. It's like claiming someone killed my neighbor. Then the cops went over and talked to the supposed dead neighbor and found him just fine. Investigation over. That was easy.

We also know that If you take California out of the popular vote equation, then Trump wins the rest of the country by 1.4 million votes. That's right. We know that in California democrats are winning by larger and larger margins every election cycle. Much more than seen anywhere else in the country.
Probably the fact that they have to continually pay more and more to compensate for the failed GOP policies.
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« Reply #58 on: Dec 19, 2016, 05:00AM »

I'm sure that Hillary was alarmed that facts about her 'escaped' even though the democrat party and the MSM did everything they could to cover for her.

Bottomline, she lost. Attacking people that exposed her for what she is kinda lame.

If you want investigations, lets investigate the illegals that voted in California. We know that California issues drivers licenses to illegals. We also know that If you take California out of the popular vote equation, then Trump wins the rest of the country by 1.4 million votes. That's right. We know that in California democrats are winning by larger and larger margins every election cycle. Much more than seen anywhere else in the country. Where are those democrat voters coming from? South of the border? Hmmmmmm..


Only a great fool would believe what you wrote.

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« Reply #59 on: Dec 19, 2016, 05:55AM »

Well, he did say one thing that's the truth: Hillary lost.  I don't buy any of the rest.

Note that I don't think the Russian hacks alone sunk Hillary.  Lots of other things to consider.  Wish Ted White was around to analyze this election.
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« Reply #60 on: Dec 19, 2016, 06:37AM »

It's Official: Clinton's Popular Vote Win Came Entirely From California

http://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/its-official-clintons-popular-vote-win-came-entirely-from-california/

Teaser:
"As we noted in this space earlier, while Clinton's overall margin looks large and impressive, it is due to Clinton's huge margin of victory in one state — California — where she got a whopping 4.3 million more votes than Trump.

California is the only state, in fact, where Clinton's margin of victory was bigger than President Obama's in 2012 — 61.5% vs. Obama's 60%.

But California is the exception that proves the true genius of the Electoral College — which was designed to prevent regional candidates from dominating national elections.

In recent years, California has been turning into what amounts to a one-party state. Between 2008 and 2016, the number of Californian's who registered as Democrats climbed by 1.1 million, while the number of registered Republicans dropped by almost 400,000.

What's more, many Republicans in the state had nobody to vote for in November."


http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/ab-60-drivers-license.php

Teaser:
"SUMMARY: California Driver's License for Undocumented Residents
As of January 2015, California residents who cannot establish legal presence in the United States may apply for a driver's license if they can show eligible proof of identification and residency in the state. These driver's licenses may not be used for identification purposes. By law, no one may discriminate against a holder of an AB-60 license, or use this license to attempt to question the holder's citizenship or immigration status."


http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-0208-immigrant-drivers-licenses-20160208-story.html

There's been a boom in driver's licenses issued to immigrants here illegally



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« Reply #61 on: Dec 19, 2016, 06:42AM »

Just in:
A state with more than 10% of the US population contributes to a large portion of something in the country.

It is almost like you are bad at math.

Cheers,
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« Reply #62 on: Dec 19, 2016, 07:21AM »

Just in:
A state with more than 10% of the US population contributes to a large portion of something in the country.

It is almost like you are bad at math.

It's obviously much more fundamental than that though.
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« Reply #63 on: Dec 19, 2016, 08:25AM »


Note that I don't think the Russian hacks alone sunk Hillary. 


Russian shenanigans (hacking and fake news deluge), GOP voter suppression efforts, 25 years of witchunts, kangaroo courts, made up scandals, and tin-foil hat conspiracies........All of those contributed to turning the 70,000 votes Drumpf won by. BUT, no factor was nearly as large or damaging than the rogue FBI agents who illegally leaked information about Weiner's computer to the Drumpf campaign while with holding it from their Director. That and the FBI's non-reporting of the Russian efforts, which they knew about, while at the same time slandering Clinton over e-mails they knew were inconsequential is what gave the election to Drumpf. Anyone who believes in the rule of law in this country should feel that is potentially a bigger story than Watergate, and I hope the MSM will pursue it with the vigor they did in the '70's.
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« Reply #64 on: Dec 19, 2016, 08:30AM »


Erm, Hillary won the popular vote here in New Hampshire and in Massachusetts.  I'd also bet that she won the popular vote in all the other states that she won the Electoral vote from.

It's not accurate to say that just California was the only reason Clinton got more popular votes.  That's an extreme version of cherry picking.

Russian shenanigans (hacking and fake news deluge), GOP voter suppression efforts, 25 years of witchunts, kangaroo courts, made up scandals, and tin-foil hat conspiracies........All of those contributed to turning the 70,000 votes Drumpf won by. BUT, no factor was nearly as large or damaging than the rogue FBI agents who illegally leaked information about Weiner's computer to the Drumpf campaign while with holding it from their Director. That and the FBI's non-reporting of the Russian efforts, which they knew about, while at the same time slandering Clinton over e-mails they knew were inconsequential is what gave the election to Drumpf. Anyone who believes in the rule of law in this country should feel that is potentially a bigger story than Watergate, and I hope the MSM will pursue it with the vigor they did in the '70's.

I think one of the terms to be used here is "Hatch Act".  They delayed investigation into the Trump U because of it, but apparently it doesn't apply to Clinton.
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« Reply #65 on: Dec 19, 2016, 08:33AM »

Note that I don't think the Russian hacks alone sunk Hillary.  Lots of other things to consider.

She did most of the damage over her decades long political career, but even most of that was much more about the haters then her. But in such a close election any one significant effect could have tipped the balance from just winning the popular vote to winning a few of the close winner takes all states that went to Trump. If the Titanic were blown only a quarter degree off course a mile from the iceberg ... ?
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« Reply #66 on: Dec 19, 2016, 09:38AM »

Erm, Hillary won the popular vote here in New Hampshire and in Massachusetts.  I'd also bet that she won the popular vote in all the other states that she won the Electoral vote from.

It's not accurate to say that just California was the only reason Clinton got more popular votes.  That's an extreme version of cherry picking.

I think one of the terms to be used here is "Hatch Act".  They delayed investigation into the Trump U because of it, but apparently it doesn't apply to Clinton.

Subtract California and trump wins the popular vote. That's why we need to keep the Electoral College.

Howz come you guys are not upset with your fellow dems tampering, harassing, bribing and threatening the Electors?

We need laws enacted to make the punishment the same as jury tampering. It is total despicable behavior by the liberal leftist democrats.

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« Reply #67 on: Dec 19, 2016, 09:40AM »

Subtract California and trump wins the popular vote. That's why we need to keep the Electoral College.
We need to keep the electoral college because if we subtract 10% of the country that didn't vote the way you want, then you get the vote you want?

Howz come you guys are not upset with your fellow dems tampering, harassing, bribing and threatening the Electors?
Probably because this isn't a real thing.
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« Reply #68 on: Dec 19, 2016, 10:27AM »

We need a term for people who don't care about reality but aren't smart or aware enough to keep it under the table, or at least subtle (or who just want to watch the world burn--not stupid, just psychotic), and who think and vote in highly self-destructive ways that impose their own self-destructive dishonest mindset upon everyone else ... though I guess Alt-Right has kind of become established for most of that. Then the question becomes how many Alt-Right types don't realize they're Alt-Right types ... ?
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« Reply #69 on: Dec 19, 2016, 10:30AM »

Problem is Alt-Right carries a fair amount of baggage: anti-Semitism, KKK, Right Wing Militias, etc.

Similarly, Fascists have baggage left over from World War II.

Wish I could come up with a catchy term for the Ideo-Stupefied.
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« Reply #70 on: Dec 19, 2016, 11:10AM »

Subtract California and trump wins the popular vote. That's why we need to keep the Electoral College.
So if we subtract ~11.5% of the population you get a different result..  So?  Would you also suggest that we take the right to vote away from a minority that is ~12% of the population?  Do you yet see how stupid your statement is?

Quote
Howz come you guys are not upset with your fellow dems tampering, harassing, bribing and threatening the Electors?

We need laws enacted to make the punishment the same as jury tampering. It is total despicable behavior by the liberal leftist democrats.


But, uh, this isn't happening.  Sure, some people are being loud asking them to not vote for an idiot.  Well, that is pretty dumb and not gonna happen.  Threats?  Haven't seen or heard of one.  I'm sure you can link to a crackpot site that will come up with one.  Only a fool would believe that, but here we are.

Cheers,
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« Reply #71 on: Dec 19, 2016, 11:30AM »

Problem is Alt-Right carries a fair amount of baggage: anti-Semitism, KKK, Right Wing Militias, etc.
I do really like Deplorables ... that's a very appropriately descriptive term, but it's wide-ranging (the real problem with it for the election was that those who weren't targeted decided they wanted to be--which was a pretty striking signal of the trouble to come, actually). Maybe Alpha Deplorables, Beta Deplorables ... etc? Or Type A, Type B ... hmmm. Modifying Deplorables does seem promising.
 
Similarly, Fascists have baggage left over from World War II.
Deplorables still works nicely for them too ...
 
Wish I could come up with a catchy term for the Ideo-Stupefied.
That's a good one for personal and offensively accurate use--does have some utility as well due to its accuracy--but I'm looking for something less provocative (got the provocative angle covered--heh).
 
Thanks for the nod though, man!
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« Reply #72 on: Dec 19, 2016, 11:31AM »

Do you yet see how stupid your statement is?

What do you think ... eh?
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« Reply #73 on: Dec 19, 2016, 11:51AM »


Wish I could come up with a catchy term for the Ideo-Stupefied.

Democrat.
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« Reply #74 on: Dec 19, 2016, 12:19PM »

I see a bit of a strawman argument here. I don't assume Hillary would have won the election if it were decided by popular vote, so I don't think it's a big deal one way or another. The campaign would have unfolded completely differently if it were decided on pop vote, and the vote would have turned out differently.

Saying that the popular vote in an election was decided in a big state seems so obvious and inevitable that I can't imagine why someone would bring it up--It's like saying: "Teaser--Expensive things cost more than cheap ones!" or "Heavy things weigh more!"

You could just as well say, "It's not a fair election because the current governor would have lost if you don't count any votes from the largest city." Obviously a lot of people live in California, and their vote isn't illegitimate because each of them lives within a border that's drawn around more people. You could just as well say that Hillary won the popular vote by a landslide, as long as you don't count Texas. I don't see why many Repubs, including Trump, are so defensive over this.

I guess it all makes sense to people who don't think very clearly.
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« Reply #75 on: Dec 19, 2016, 01:01PM »

Democrat.

Gee.  I would have said "Houston Network Engineer". :-P

But that wouldn't have covered all of them.

For that matter, most of the folks who disagree with you aren't Democrats either.  Nor are they ideo-stupefied.
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« Reply #76 on: Dec 19, 2016, 02:39PM »

In the Electoral College a voter in Montana get one vote for every 8 voters in California.
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« Reply #77 on: Dec 19, 2016, 03:08PM »

Yup...Brilliance of the Electoral College!  Clever
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« Reply #78 on: Dec 19, 2016, 04:44PM »

I see a bit of a strawman argument here. I don't assume Hillary would have won the election if it were decided by popular vote, so I don't think it's a big deal one way or another. The campaign would have unfolded completely differently if it were decided on pop vote, and the vote would have turned out differently.

Saying that the popular vote in an election was decided in a big state seems so obvious and inevitable that I can't imagine why someone would bring it up--It's like saying: "Teaser--Expensive things cost more than cheap ones!" or "Heavy things weigh more!"

You could just as well say, "It's not a fair election because the current governor would have lost if you don't count any votes from the largest city." Obviously a lot of people live in California, and their vote isn't illegitimate because each of them lives within a border that's drawn around more people. You could just as well say that Hillary won the popular vote by a landslide, as long as you don't count Texas. I don't see why many Repubs, including Trump, are so defensive over this.

I guess it all makes sense to people who don't think very clearly.

It just clarifies that the Electoral College is correct. The states vote for the president. The presidency is not decided by a majority of the citizens. If it was setup that way, looking at the red/blue maps indicates that a tiny portion of the country would elect the president, and about 95% of the rest of the country would be without a voice.

California itself illustrates the same principle. The red/blue map of just California shows that the few highly concentrated urban centers out vote the rest of the state. Like the article stated, in California, there are few elections that even have republicans running for office leaving conservatives without a meaningful vote. They are without a voice. I have a lot of friends that live there, and they feel they have no say whatsoever.

 
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« Reply #79 on: Dec 19, 2016, 05:03PM »

...

California itself illustrates the same principle. The red/blue map of just California shows that the few highly concentrated urban centers out vote the rest of the state. Like the article stated, in California, there are few elections that even have republicans running for office leaving conservatives without a meaningful vote. They are without a voice. I have a lot of friends that live there, and they feel they have no say whatsoever.
 

Now you know how Greg Waits feels.  He's in a small liberal enclave in Texas.  He doesn't get a vote either.
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« Reply #80 on: Dec 19, 2016, 06:01PM »

Now you know how Greg Waits feels.  He's in a small liberal enclave in Texas.  He doesn't get a vote either.

That's not true Bruce. Dallas has a liberal mayor as do all the other major cities in Texas. In fact, I'm sure he is very comfortable.
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« Reply #81 on: Dec 19, 2016, 06:23PM »

That's not true Bruce. Dallas has a liberal mayor as do all the other major cities in Texas. In fact, I'm sure he is very comfortable.

Not in his votes for President or Governor.
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« Reply #82 on: Dec 19, 2016, 06:31PM »

It just clarifies that the Electoral College is correct.
Correct? Garnering the verdict you desired so strongly has no impact on how valid or correct something is.

The states vote for the president. The presidency is not decided by a majority of the citizens. If it was setup that way, looking at the red/blue maps indicates that a tiny portion of the country would elect the president, and about 95% of the rest of the country would be without a voice.
so a majority vote is 5% eh? some math ya got there :-P

I would note, per the initial logic, the only federal level elected by the people was the house of representatives. The senate was elected by state representatives, not the people, as was the president. The court being the most removed. The entire idea of people having a presidential option on the ballot... why? Electors we also chosen by elected state officials. Even now, electors are often chosen by the party that won the popular vote, or those in office. NOT the people. And the electors themselves could vote against both if they so choose.

Also per the initial logic of the founders, texas didn't exist.

Maybe we should go back the the original scope and intention!  Idea!
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« Reply #83 on: Dec 19, 2016, 06:34PM »

Not in his votes for President or Governor.
Nor us house representative likely, given how badly texas and the major cities like dallas are gerrymandered.
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« Reply #84 on: Dec 19, 2016, 07:19PM »

Not in his votes for President or Governor.

You guys were claiming that Texas was a swing state ready to tip over. Remember?
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« Reply #85 on: Dec 19, 2016, 07:20PM »

Correct? Garnering the verdict you desired so strongly has no impact on how valid or correct something is.
so a majority vote is 5% eh? some math ya got there :-P

I would note, per the initial logic, the only federal level elected by the people was the house of representatives. The senate was elected by state representatives, not the people, as was the president. The court being the most removed. The entire idea of people having a presidential option on the ballot... why? Electors we also chosen by elected state officials. Even now, electors are often chosen by the party that won the popular vote, or those in office. NOT the people. And the electors themselves could vote against both if they so choose.

Also per the initial logic of the founders, texas didn't exist.

Maybe we should go back the the original scope and intention!  Idea!

I agree I think that Senators should be chosen by the state legislatures instead of nation wide coverage of state senators.
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« Reply #86 on: Dec 19, 2016, 07:22PM »

Nor us house representative likely, given how badly texas and the major cities like dallas are gerrymandered.

Texas is filled with republican reps that vote with the demos all the time.
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« Reply #87 on: Dec 19, 2016, 07:25PM »

Texas is filled with republican reps that vote with the demos all the time.

Is "all the time" once or twice a year?  Or just that you want it that way?
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« Reply #88 on: Dec 19, 2016, 07:27PM »

You guys were claiming that Texas was a swing state ready to tip over. Remember?

Which guys? Can you quote the posts?
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« Reply #89 on: Dec 19, 2016, 07:39PM »

You guys were claiming that Texas was a swing state ready to tip over. Remember?

On the eve of the election, ALL of the polls were predicting a major win for Clinton.

Yet she lost.

The polls are usually not that wrong (sure, I remember Dewey Defeats Truman in 1948.  I was 3 weeks old).

In order for all the polls to be so mistaken one of these probably happened:

1.  People lied to the pollsters -- said they would vote for someone and then voted for someone else or didn't vote.
2.  Someone falsified the voting results.  The one recount that actually did happen did not confirm this.
3.  There was some form of voter suppression from one side or another.  Again, we don't have any concrete evidence of this.

I vote for the poeple lying to the pollsters.  Trump was presented as such an odious candidate that people probably didn't want to admit to voting for him, even anonymously.  Or something happened to change their mind at the last second, like a release the presence of additional emails by the FBI and insinuations that more State Secrets were stored on the Clinton server.
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« Reply #90 on: Dec 19, 2016, 08:05PM »

You people just don't get it.

You believed the fake news just like the fake news had everybody hoping that the electors were going to change their vote. You see how That went.
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« Reply #91 on: Dec 19, 2016, 08:25PM »

You mean "fake news" that doesn't conform to your wishes?  I was unaware that the world revolved around a small corner of Houston.

I didn't expect enough electors to defect (apparently two did).  And several Clinton electors voted for Sanders.
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« Reply #92 on: Dec 19, 2016, 09:12PM »

You mean "fake news" that doesn't conform to your wishes?  I was unaware that the world revolved around a small corner of Houston.

I didn't expect enough electors to defect (apparently two did).  And several Clinton electors voted for Sanders.

After the fake news tried to stir something up for three weeks. LOL!
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« Reply #93 on: Dec 20, 2016, 04:56AM »


3.  There was some form of voter suppression from one side or another.  Again, we don't have any concrete evidence of this.


????????????? Are you freaking kidding me?
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« Reply #94 on: Dec 20, 2016, 07:03AM »

????????????? Are you freaking kidding me?

I said concrete.  As in "smoking gun".

I am still not understanding how bad the polls could have gone.  Nate Silver (Fivethirtyeight.com) gave Trump the best chance of winning at around 30%.  Either the polls missed something or there was some kind of "divine intervention".  And the pollsters are digging deep to understand.
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« Reply #95 on: Dec 20, 2016, 07:18AM »

I said concrete.  As in "smoking gun".
 
I am still not understanding how bad the polls could have gone.  Nate Silver (Fivethirtyeight.com) gave Trump the best chance of winning at around 30%. Either the polls missed something or there was some kind of "divine intervention".  And the pollsters are digging deep to understand.

Divine?
 
How about infernal ...
 
Not that either is and RL kind of thing, but fictional forces can still afflict the minds of those who believe in them.
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« Reply #96 on: Dec 20, 2016, 07:42AM »

I said concrete.  As in "smoking gun".
Pretty sure NC would count as that, where a panel of judges noted that the gop legislature targeted minorities with surgical precision...
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« Reply #97 on: Dec 20, 2016, 07:46AM »

I said concrete.  As in "smoking gun".

I am still not understanding how bad the polls could have gone.  Nate Silver (Fivethirtyeight.com) gave Trump the best chance of winning at around 30%.  Either the polls missed something or there was some kind of "divine intervention".  And the pollsters are digging deep to understand.
The polls didn't miss by that much.  Turns out, they generally had a better accuracy than the polls in 2012.  What 'they' got wrong was the punditry.  The modelers that predicted 90%+ were making a lot of choices with the data they had.  That was not good reporting.  Nate wasn't too bad, and in retrospect his comments noting how it wasn't a slam dunk look a lot better.  Most of the punditry ignored the high number of undecideds and third parties... crucial errors for an election when neither was going to win a massive majority.  That said, the late swing to one candidate was particularly sharp and beyond the scope of what most models can handle.  

Side note, a 30+% shot is pretty decent.  Better than the chance of a miss of an NBA free throw.  Those never happen, right?  Despite the thought among fans that every free throw should be made, that isn't how the numbers work.  Similar also to the chance of an incomplete pass.  Those seem to happen quite a bit, too.  That is, they are not unusual or unexpected events given the level of variability.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #98 on: Dec 20, 2016, 11:31AM »

You people just don't get it.

You believed the fake news just like the fake news had everybody hoping that the electors were going to change their vote. You see how That went.

Whom are you addressing here? Who here expected the electoral college vote to turn out different? If you're going to put words into people's mouths, show the quotes.

None of the news I read suggested there was any real chance of anyone but Trump winning the EC. So if there was 'fake news' saying that, I didn't read it, and I wouldn't have believed it. This is another one of your strawmen.

I think the EC would be doing its constitutional duty if they voted for someone else, but I neither expected nor hoped it would happen. Given all the circumstances, it would be a calamity.

Nate Silver had the election at about two-to-one for Hillary, which as Russ is saying is a pretty good chance for Trump, so I wasn't shocked when he won. I posted on here saying something about supporting Trump if he wins, on the morning of election day. Nate also said that black turnout would be critical, and it turned out to be one of the deciding factors. So I don't know what 'fake news' you're talking about (it's your new favorite phrase, and I'm sure you'll give us all plenty of chance to get tired of it), but the news I read was pretty accurate.
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robcat2075

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« Reply #99 on: Dec 20, 2016, 01:10PM »

On the eve of the election, ALL of the polls were predicting a major win for Clinton.


That's not correct.

The national polls, on average, were predicting a 1-3% popular vote win for Clinton, which is what happened.

A few, like LA Times predicted Trump to win the popular vote, which didn't happen.

The electoral college predictions were indeed way off but those were based on state polls that weren't polled as often or as with sample sizes of the national polls.  It really only took about three state poll errors to throw the Electoral college prediction off.

Overall, the polls were much like their track record: national numbers reasonably close, state numbers with surprises.

In the end, Nate Silver gave Trump a 1 out of 4 chance of winning and we got that 1 chance out of 4. 

1 out of four is like the specific result of two coin flips. It's not something that never happens.  1 out of 4 happens quite a bit.
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« Reply #100 on: Dec 20, 2016, 08:55PM »


I think the EC would be doing its constitutional duty if they voted for someone else, but I neither expected nor hoped it would happen. Given all the circumstances, it would be a calamity.


We are destined for a calamity, one way or another. That calamity occuring because the Constitution, as written, worked as it was designed would, almost certainly, have been preferable to the calamity we are in store for. I can only hope it doesn't end with the world blowing up. I am only marginally hopeful.
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« Reply #101 on: Dec 20, 2016, 09:17PM »

We are destined for a calamity, one way or another. That calamity occuring because the Constitution, as written, worked as it was designed would, almost certainly, have been preferable to the calamity we are in store for. I can only hope it doesn't end with the world blowing up. I am only marginally hopeful.

I disagree, Russ. A lot of what we deal with is tradition, not the letter of the Constitution. The people on this forum who think the constitution is sacrosanct, and that the Electoral College is just ducky when it turns up the right result, wouldn't have been so sanguine if it performed its constitutional mandate (per Hamilton) and overrode the results of the election.

And the dopes on this forum are nowhere near as dopey as many of the dopes who would rise up if they didn't get their way with Trump. The EC overruling the states' votes is perfectly reasonable and constitutional, but it hasn't happened for a long time. And the average Trump voter is much less educated (as a matter of fact) and probably much better armed (most likely) than the average anti-Trump voter. A lot of police and military voted for Trump. You don't want to see what would happen if an unprecedented move deprives them of their 'revolution'. Even a Trump presidency is better.

I prayed for Trump to win in the EC, but God doesn't listen to me much anymore, and with good reason. I got my wish in this case, but perhaps He was intervening, not on my behalf, but on behalf of some doofus waving a Confederate flag and saying 'Get over it, you lost.'
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« Reply #102 on: Dec 21, 2016, 10:23AM »

Confederate flag wavers telling anti-Trumpers to "Hurry up and get over it" while waving the flag from the side that lost - in 1865!
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« Reply #103 on: Dec 21, 2016, 11:47AM »

Confederate flag wavers telling anti-Trumpers to "Hurry up and get over it" while waving the flag from the side that lost - in 1865!

I hoped someone would catch that. It's not original--I saw it in a Facebook meme.
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« Reply #104 on: Dec 21, 2016, 03:52PM »

Is this Faux or merely opinion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Poa5h6xAvR8

 Don't know
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« Reply #105 on: Dec 21, 2016, 05:11PM »

Is this Faux or merely opinion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Poa5h6xAvR8

 Don't know

I'm using a computer without sound, so I didn't watch this, but based on the headline, I don't think opinion is 'fake news'. It's certainly arguable whether multiculturalism is beneficial to Germany, so it's not the equivalent of a made-up story.

There are hundreds of thousands of people who believe that an FBI agent was murdered because he leaked Hillary's emails, or that Obama signed a bill outlawing the Pledge of Allegiance, etc., etc. These stories aren't just disagreeable interpretations of fact, or carefully and misleadingly card-stacked arguments--they're deliberate fabrications created out of whole cloth, either for sport, political advantage, or profit.

The 'fake news' phenomena is important because there's plenty to discuss without the complication of introducing deliberate falsehoods into the mix. If we're all starting with the same facts, there's a lot of discussion available as to the benefits and detriments of multiculturalism, and how it can be managed to maximize the former and minimize the latter.

I don't think Fox News is 'fake news', in the new and strictest sense. The 'Faux News' epithet (which I don't use) doesn't mean that they're spreading made-up stories, but that in some people's eyes they're not a real news station.

The 'fake news' term is being co-opted into meaninglessness. That's partly deliberate on the part of people who benefit politically from the spread of fake news stories and want to draw attention away from it by using it for nearly everything. As has been pointed out, the true practitioners of this dark art concentrate on pro-Trump stories because that's who falls for them. So people with a stronger sense of partisanship than honesty have a stake in letting the fake stories continue and creating a diversion by pointing at legitimate stories and contrary opinion and saying, "Hey, look here! This is fake, too!"

For the record, there's a lot of stupid opinion and poor reporting out there, but it's not fake news to me.

If we use it to describe interpretations of events that we might not find amenable (like your clip, perhaps), or to describe truthful and accurate reporting about actual events that we wish didn't happen (as in DDickerson using the term to describe the media's accurate reporting of CIA findings on Russia's involvement in the election), we distract from our one area of agreement--that it's better if our opinions, even if different, are at least based on things that weren't made up.
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« Reply #106 on: Dec 21, 2016, 05:22PM »

You people just don't get it.

You believed the fake news just like the fake news had everybody hoping that the electors were going to change their vote. You see how That went.

Okay, put your money where your mouth is.

My main newspaper is the New York Times. That's certainly part of the mainstream media. Their stories are available on line. Can you link to the 'fake story' on this subject? I read a lot of accurate stories reporting that some people were hoping that this happened, and describing the legalities therein, and accurately reporting that one elector had publicly announced his plan to do so. None of that was fake news, because it's true.

The stories I read included accurate quotes from knowledgeable people who asserted that the chances of this changing the outcome of the election were very low.

So, why don't you demonstrate your own honesty by linking to the New York Times story (or any other respected 'MSM' publication)--just one story--that indicated that Donald Trump would likely lose in the Electoral College.

I think you long ago lost that subtle distinction between 'fake' and 'real'.
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #107 on: Dec 21, 2016, 06:18PM »

I think you long ago lost that subtle distinction between 'fake' and 'real'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8ofWFx525s
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