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Author Topic: 12c mouthpiece with large shank?  (Read 1641 times)
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7r0mb0n1n470r
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« on: Dec 10, 2016, 10:21AM »

So, I'm looking into getting a new mouthpiece for my trombone because, honestly, I just really don't like the 6.5 AL that came with the instrument. I really like the 12c mouthpiece from my other trombone, however it's a small bore trombone and the one the I want to get the mouthpiece for is a Large bore trombone. I was wondering if there are any 12c mouthpieces available with a large shank? Does anybody have suggestions?
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BGuttman
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« Reply #1 on: Dec 10, 2016, 11:04AM »

There are 12C mouthpieces on large shank.  It's called a 12C-T.  It's special order from Bach (long delay and expensive).

Alternatively, you could use an adapter.

But the 12C is really designed for a small bore and most of us don't play one on a large bore trombone.  Is this trombone new to you?  If so, you might just want to work with the 6 1/2 AL a bit and see if you can learn to use it.

If you REALLY can't figure out how to play on the 6 1/2 AL you might consider exchanging the large bore trombone for a medium bore trombone.  Your 12C will fit that fine.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #2 on: Dec 10, 2016, 11:07AM »

A large shank 12C would be a special order, but there are adapters readily available.  I would give the 6.5 AL some time to get used to first if you haven't already.  It usually takes me a couple of weeks of consistent practice to make a switch.
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cb56

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« Reply #3 on: Dec 10, 2016, 11:07AM »

I wouldn't think any mouthpiece with a C cup is going to sound good in a large bore horn.
Do you have a trombone teacher? What do they say?
If you are a fairly new student of the horn I would suggest sticking with the 6 1/2 al.
Another possibility is switch to a 7c on your small horn and seek out a large shank 7 (No C) for your large bore. They are custom made but turn up used from time to time (internet search)

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7r0mb0n1n470r
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« Reply #4 on: Dec 10, 2016, 01:50PM »

There are 12C mouthpieces on large shank.  It's called a 12C-T.  It's special order from Bach (long delay and expensive).

Alternatively, you could use an adapter.

But the 12C is really designed for a small bore and most of us don't play one on a large bore trombone.  Is this trombone new to you?  If so, you might just want to work with the 6 1/2 AL a bit and see if you can learn to use it.

If you REALLY can't figure out how to play on the 6 1/2 AL you might consider exchanging the large bore trombone for a medium bore trombone.  Your 12C will fit that fine.

I have been using the 6 1/2 AL for about a year now and still dont like the feel of it. As for switching the trombone, i dont really see that being possible for me at the moment. Thank you for your feedback :)
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7r0mb0n1n470r
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« Reply #5 on: Dec 10, 2016, 01:59PM »

A large shank 12C would be a special order, but there are adapters readily available.  I would give the 6.5 AL some time to get used to first if you haven't already.  It usually takes me a couple of weeks of consistent practice to make a switch.

I've tried getting used to the mouthpiece for about a year now and I still dont like it very much. Could have something to do with the fact that I switch back to the 12c during marching season? Thank you for your feedback :)
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« Reply #6 on: Dec 10, 2016, 02:10PM »

While it may be considered "unorthodox" to use a 12C with a large-bore horn, it's not unheard of either. The guy sitting right next to me in one of the bands might have a few hundred words to say about it b/c he's been doing it for years. So did Bill Pierce.

...Geezer
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Matt K

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« Reply #7 on: Dec 10, 2016, 02:19PM »

Could be any number of things with the 6.5AL.  Could be a bad piece (is it a Bach, or any one of the number of 'copies' - some being better than others)?  Could be your embouchure. There are certain people who do well on small pieces.  I'm the opposite, the 6.5AL is far too small for my embouchure. Are you studying with anybody?  Would be better to get the opinion of someone who has seen you play to make a recommendation - as one size does not fit all. If that were the case there would only be a small handful of mouthpieces and most players would play them exclusively.
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davdud101
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« Reply #8 on: Dec 12, 2016, 02:21AM »

I actually can't even imagine how it'd feel to play a 12C on a large bore. I once bought a 6.5AL for my large bore to see if I'd have an easier time switching from horns using the same rim - and even THAT was VERY weird! Not very full or 'large bore'-like enough in sound for me, nor did it respond in a way that felt consistent with either any large OR small bores I'd played at the time.
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« Reply #9 on: Dec 12, 2016, 05:50AM »

Perpetual disclaimer: not an expert, just my $0.02--

General consensus, I think, is that switching from a smaller mouthpiece to a larger mouthpiece is tougher than switching from a larger mouthpiece to a smaller mouthpiece.

It took me years to successfully transition from a 12C to a 6 1/2 AL. By "successful" I mean it's comfortable for me now, and I can usually make the sounds I want to make, and my high range isn't total garbage.

If you switch back to a 12C for marching season, yeah, that could be hindering you. I'd consider keeping a 6 1/2 AL on your marching horn instead of switching back to the 12C for marching season. It'll be easier and cheaper to find a small-shank 6 1/2 AL than a large-shank 12C.

Has anyone mentioned Doug Elliott yet, for the sake of helping to determine if a large-shank 12C really is a good solution for you?
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« Reply #10 on: Dec 12, 2016, 08:47AM »

While it may be considered "unorthodox" to use a 12C with a large-bore horn, it's not unheard of either. The guy sitting right next to me in one of the bands might have a few hundred words to say about it b/c he's been doing it for years. So did Bill Pierce.

...Geezer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjJH3qaXdLo
Bill should chime in here. 12C + adapter + Olds Opera.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #11 on: Dec 12, 2016, 09:19AM »

...

Has anyone mentioned Doug Elliott yet, for the sake of helping to determine if a large-shank 12C really is a good solution for you?

A lesson with Doug is useful.  A mouthpiece from Doug is pretty pricey for a kid.

If the OP doesn't have a teacher yet, he should consider getting one.  There may be some really obvious reason why he can't use the 6 1/2 AL.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #12 on: Dec 12, 2016, 09:30AM »

Bill's dead you know.... also He used a 12 not a 12c from what I understand.
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John the Theologian
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« Reply #13 on: Dec 12, 2016, 10:33AM »

While it may be considered "unorthodox" to use a 12C with a large-bore horn, it's not unheard of either. The guy sitting right next to me in one of the bands might have a few hundred words to say about it b/c he's been doing it for years. So did Bill Pierce.

...Geezer

Certainly Bill Pearce used a 12C in his large bore Olds Opera, but his style was that of the older, swing era lead horn playing, with lots of vibrato and favoring the upper range, where a 12C sound was very appropriate. 

If you want that sort of sound on your large bore, then using a 12C is the way to go.  It all depends on what sort of sound you desire.
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #14 on: Dec 12, 2016, 11:33AM »

Some people really do need a small rim diameter, on any horn.  Hard to say without seeing him play.
With a rim that small there are usually limitations on what you can do on a large bore horn in terms of sound and especially low range.  A 12C is probably too small and shallow to really work well, even for someone who needs a small rim.

I have known players who could use as small as a 95 (smaller than 12C) successfully on a large bore horn... for commercial playing, not classical.



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« Reply #15 on: Dec 12, 2016, 01:02PM »

Bill's dead you know.... also He used a 12 not a 12c from what I understand.

Right on both counts, I believe. I definitely remember his passing, and I think I've read about the Bach 12 mp at some point, but forgot that detail.  Good!
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« Reply #16 on: Dec 12, 2016, 07:17PM »


If you're willing to compromise just a little, I think you'd like a Shilke 46 mouthpiece. It's made in large shank, and it has a rim only slightly bigger than your Bach 12C(about like a Bach 7; nowhere near as big as a Bach 6 1/2 AL) The bore is  slightly larger than the Bach 12C, so you'll get a bigger sound for the larger bore horn. It's also available in small shank. See here for one source, or go to Schilke site for more info.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Schilke-46-Large-Shank-Silver-Trombone-Mouthpiece-/311316905367?hash=item487beefd97:g:EfwAAOSwPhdVAxkm
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7r0mb0n1n470r
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« Reply #17 on: Jun 05, 2017, 04:11AM »

Could be any number of things with the 6.5AL.  Could be a bad piece (is it a Bach, or any one of the number of 'copies' - some being better than others)?  Could be your embouchure. There are certain people who do well on small pieces.  I'm the opposite, the 6.5AL is far too small for my embouchure. Are you studying with anybody?  Would be better to get the opinion of someone who has seen you play to make a recommendation - as one size does not fit all. If that were the case there would only be a small handful of mouthpieces and most players would play them exclusively.

The 6.5 is likely a copy but I'm not sure. I asked my highschool band director what his opinion was a while back and he said he wasn't really sure since he specializes more in percussion but that maybe I could try seeing if they made a 12c that would fit and try it out. I actually bought a large shank 12c back around christmas but it was for really dirt cheap (the spelling on the box ended up being wrong when it came in the mail too.) In some ways it was kinda bad, but overall the mouthpiece, despite expectations, played surprisingly well. It definitely hurts my tone quality but I seem to be able to do a lot more musicality wise than on the 6.5. Currently I just switch between the two depending on the situation.
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« Reply #18 on: Jun 05, 2017, 04:43AM »

If the 12C you have hampers your tone quality, what do you mean that it lets you do more musically?  Is there something more important than the quality of your tone to producing a quality performance?
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« Reply #19 on: Jun 05, 2017, 04:57AM »

I think trying to play a 12c on a large shank in a large bore horn is just as stupid as trying to put a 2G piece on a small shank and trying to play a king 2b.

Contact Doug and get his opinion but I would be surprised if he tells you a large bore 12c is the way to go.

I haven't seen you play, but what this sounds like to me is a classic misunderstanding that poor technique is a result of gear. The fact that you struggle with a 6 1/2 after a year tells me nothing except that its most likely that you have been practicing in the wrong way for over a year. Save money and time, get a lesson with someone who knows what they are talking about and find a practice routine that helps you improve, not gear that trades specific problems for other problems. The fact that your large shank 12c is noticably affecting your tone should be a huge red flag.
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« Reply #20 on: Jun 05, 2017, 02:44PM »

I was in a similar situation. I play a Bach 7C and/or Bach 7. I always struggled with playing a large bore horn.
I saw Doug Elliott at the ITA conference at Eastman, he put together a mouthpiece for me that works amazing.
I have the 98 rim (which is Doug`s 7C-ish rim) and the F cup and F8 shank.
If the 12/11C -ish rim fells the best for you, talk to doug
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #21 on: Jun 05, 2017, 03:37PM »

Some players really do need small rim diameters due to their facial structure and embouchure type.  I have known a few players like that.

However, the OP is a high school student and it sounds like he's likely just having typical trouble adjusting to playing a large bore horn.
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« Reply #22 on: Jun 05, 2017, 06:18PM »


I have known players who could use as small as a 95 (smaller than 12C) successfully on a large bore horn... for commercial playing, not classical.



My understanding of your mouthpiece system is that you get a rim that suits the player, and a cup that suits the style.
Does style have an influence on what rim you would use, and, is there any factor/scenario that would lead you (personally) to using a smaller rim?


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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #23 on: Jun 05, 2017, 07:25PM »

The rim I use is the size that works best for me, in all situations, and doesn't matter what kind of playing I'm doing.  For me, I play a very large rim and a smaller rim gives me less range and endurance.  There are a lot of examples of my playing on YouTube and it's all on the same rim.  For the most part it's probably on the same cup too.

Your understanding of my system is correct.  But not everybody wants to do it that way.
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« Reply #24 on: Jun 05, 2017, 08:07PM »

Sure. Have checked out several of your clips/recordings, Doug - excellent playing indeed!

I suppose my question was more relating to your comment about a 12C on a large bore "for commercial playing, not classical".

Does playing a 12C on a large bore, if that is the rim size that works best for a player, have negative implications in playing certain styles? Or is that a matter for the 'C' cup, and not the rim. I know you've commented elsewhere you use a larger rim when playing bass bone parts, for various reasons.
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« Reply #25 on: Jun 05, 2017, 09:08PM »

The players I've known who use small rim sizes on large bore horns have all been commercial players.  I think a small rim probably limits the potential "classical sound" at volume for anybody.
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« Reply #26 on: Jun 25, 2017, 08:48PM »

I DO have a Bach 12C-T mouthpiece, with a large shank. It is quite good in the upper register on a large horn but suffers, with me playing it, in the low register, below C in the bass clef.Intonation, for me, is problematic below that C.  I have gotten some pleasing sounds with it up high, though.  I don't use it and am willing to part with it for the  $25.00 I paid for it.
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