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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: tbone62, slide advantage) Silver Plated Trombones: Why not well accepted?
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Author Topic: Silver Plated Trombones: Why not well accepted?  (Read 8408 times)
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snorsworthy

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« Reply #80 on: Dec 31, 2016, 11:36AM »

I guess some people are not able to recognize facetiousness and playfulness, but I can guarantee you one thing: if this topic on the forum we're all about how to permanently deaden your instrument, it would not be very popular, right? It would be satire! I cannot recall encountering a brass player who was seeking an unresponsive instrument, a stuffy instrument, one that caused harder work. You also have to remember, earlier in the comments, that many were challenging even the notion that lacquer does anything detectable to the instrument, so at least someone (me) found one little piece of research that suggests the intuitively obvious. After all, acoustical engineers use paint for sound deadening on hard reflective materials.
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« Reply #81 on: Dec 31, 2016, 11:46AM »

I guess some people are not able to recognize facetiousness and playfulness, but I can guarantee you one thing: if this topic on the forum we're all about how to permanently deaden your instrument, it would not be very popular, right? It would be satire! I cannot recall encountering a brass player who was seeking an unresponsive instrument, a stuffy instrument, one that caused harder work. You also have to remember, earlier in the comments, that many were challenging even the notion that lacquer does anything detectable to the instrument, so at least someone (me) found one little piece of research that suggests the intuitively obvious. After all, acoustical engineers use paint for sound deadening on hard reflective materials.

People here don't seem to get your jovial side... your comments seem unvarnished if not unlacquered....

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #82 on: Dec 31, 2016, 11:53AM »

Chris,

Ask the forum members why they don't request double or triple thickness lacquer on their instruments? It would only continue to improve the sound, right?

Steve
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« Reply #83 on: Dec 31, 2016, 11:55AM »

I just missed the fad to wrap part of the bell in duct tape. Remember those Christian Lindberg sleeve thingys to wrap around the bell? Was the tradition of wrapping natural trumpets just decorative? I don't think so. Players have been finding ways to selectively deaden parts of brass instruments for as long as there have been brass instruments.

I took no offense at all to Steve's comment - I read it as (mostly) a joke.  Evil
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« Reply #84 on: Dec 31, 2016, 11:56AM »

Ask the forum members why they don't request double or triple thickness lacquer on their instruments? It would only continue to improve the sound, right?

Sometimes it does!
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« Reply #85 on: Dec 31, 2016, 11:58AM »

There seems to be some misunderstanding about what is being measured here as well.

A 3db reduction, measured at a specific frequency, is only effecting that frequency range and not the entire response of the horn. So why you may have a range of frequency attenuated by half, you don't have the overall volume attenuated by half.

If you don't believe me, record your horn into a DAW. Go to the track, slap an EQ on there. Now take the band around 3K and drop it 3db.  Take the band around 200 and drop that 3db. Did either one of those alterations bring the entire volume down by half?

No, because that's not how sound works. Don't get lost in the forest staring at individual trees.

Something that attenuates the highs by 3db or 6db is not attenuating the entire instrument. Your articulations will not be as prominent, but that high C is still going to come out of the horn. It's only 523.4 Hz - those "highs" you're killing with too much lacquer are located much higher in the spectrum - which is why dead horns don't respond as well - the articulations aren't as "pointy". When I'm mixing, I'm boosting or attenuating the EQ band around 2-3K (depending on the horn) to alter attacks.
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« Reply #86 on: Dec 31, 2016, 12:02PM »

A short discourse on the importance and non-importance of db.

My prof was in some ways a genius. We used bio-feedback to replicate performance conditions in a school where it was unlikely there would ever be "real world" performance requirements-- both loud and soft. Rigorous exercise was regularly done by all bone majors with four things on the music stand:
1. a mirror to watch the embouchre corners
2. a tuner to check intonation
3. a metronome to prevent cheating
4. A db meter to gauge volume

If you were working on loud playing you set the db meter for 100 db or more.
Here are some relative volumes of sound for consideration, and to both explore and blast the importance of 1 db or 3 db.
1. A refrigerator kicking into use in a quiet room is about 70 db.
2. A jet taking off on a run way is 120db+.

Now, how in the hell would I know how loud the end of a runway is? I lived in a military barracks where the only thing between my bunk and the end of a run way where F-18s regularly blasted off was a tennis court, and a chain link fence. The exhaust of the CF-18 was pointed at the barracks and the pilot would just roar away and then pop up vertically about 200 meters away from the barracks.
It took months, but I could sleep through it.

So, between the quietest sound you might explore in your house, and the loudest you'd explore on  an air base is only 50 db.

As for lacquer?
The difference between a great Conn bell and a great Bach bell is .10mm ( on average.) Conn bells are .8mm bell/ .45 mm spout. Bach bells are .50mm spout and .7mm bell flare.
Not a huge number is 845 vs 750 ( in Rath bell numbers). But it is thinner than a layer of lacquer.
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« Reply #87 on: Dec 31, 2016, 12:03PM »

Anyone want to buy my handmade resistance bell wraps?  Idea!
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« Reply #88 on: Dec 31, 2016, 12:08PM »

As for "white noise" which suppresses most audible frequencies?
My girlfriend worked in a government office with a white noise generator in the ceiling speakers to suppress noise in an office full of cubicles.

On day when we were alone in the office she turned up the white noise generator for me. After a very small increase it felt like I was at least 5 meters ( 15 feet) under water. The pressure on my head hurt. She returned it to normal-- minimal suppression. No pain.
She turned it up again and conversation was impossible, even at a distance of 2 meters it deafened the listener.

Lacquer is white noise.
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« Reply #89 on: Dec 31, 2016, 12:17PM »

Ask the forum members why they don't request double or triple thickness lacquer on their instruments? It would only continue to improve the sound, right?

If that was the sound you were going for, or if that was the sound you liked, or personally thought 'best', then yes.

AS for me, my sample space is small.  I have only that one circumstance where I played ostensibly the same instrument in silver plate and lacquer.  The difference between them was minimal (not none existent) such the the decision became a matter of aesthetics.  If the silver plated one had sounded significantly better to me, I would have bought it instead.

However, you might have thought it sounded much better than the lacquer model.  To each their own.  But if your question is does lacquer make a difference, then I would say yes it does, but to me with my hearing range and given what I like about the sound of trombones, in my personal set of experiences on the subject, the difference is not significant.
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« Reply #90 on: Dec 31, 2016, 12:22PM »

A 3db reduction, measured at a specific frequency, is only effecting that frequency range and not the entire response of the horn. So why you may have a range of frequency attenuated by half, you don't have the overall volume attenuated by half.

There is a fundamental and harmonics above that. Ever look at the spectrum of a brass instrument? In the low-to-mid range, the higher harmonics are way more powerful than the fundamental. There is 'total RMS sound pressure' which is broadband, and that is, I am sure, what the author was measuring.
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« Reply #91 on: Dec 31, 2016, 12:24PM »

(Steve's comment to other comments after reading the article...)
Has anyone documented the 'deadening effect' of lacquer? Yes, lacquer 'deadens' the instrument. Is it significant? That deadening is several decibels... and may I remind you that a 3 decibel change is a factor of two in power (or sound pressure level). Is it a significant effect, according to the look of the graphs at the higher SPL? Yes. Do we know how thick the lacquer was on the experiment cited in the article? No. Was it performed on the same bell? Yes. So, while no experiment is perfect, it seems to produce the evidence. Has there been any research that proves otherwise? I could not find any so far.
Assuming that's true, the next question would be why does lacquer deaden the sound? I took issue with your previous post because you ascribed this effect to some unproven "resonance" property of metal, which would allegedly be absent in lacquer. But as I said, Schilke attributed the effect to the thickness of the lacquer, not any inherent property of lacquer as a substance. If this is the case, a thicker brass bell should produce a dampening effect just as a thinner lacquered bell does.
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« Reply #92 on: Dec 31, 2016, 12:25PM »

As for "white noise" which suppresses most audible frequencies?
My girlfriend worked in a government office with a white noise generator in the ceiling speakers to suppress noise in an office full of cubicles.

On day when we were alone in the office she turned up the white noise generator for me. After a very small increase it felt like I was at least 5 meters ( 15 feet) under water. The pressure on my head hurt. She returned it to normal-- minimal suppression. No pain.
She turned it up again and conversation was impossible, even at a distance of 2 meters it deafened the listener.

Lacquer is white noise.
No offense, but white noise does no suppress audible frequencies, it masks them.  It's a different concept.  Lacquer does not generate loud noise at all frequencies, it just purportedly absorbs some higher frequencies.
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« Reply #93 on: Dec 31, 2016, 12:28PM »

By the way, am I the first to notice the typo in the subject line or the last?
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« Reply #94 on: Dec 31, 2016, 12:30PM »

You're assuming the goal is to play as loud as possible. It's not.
Blasphemy!  Evil
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« Reply #95 on: Dec 31, 2016, 12:33PM »

Can anyone give me a rational reason, not an emotional one, why silver plated trumpets, euphoniums, tubas, ... are the the 'norm' while trombones are stuck on lacquer?

So this is how I started the original topic... now I have received the answer to my question.... some trombonists are in denial about the deadening effects of lacquer, but now with the presented scientific evidence at hand (at least somewhat conclusive, that is), they simply say that they prefer that effect on the instrument, at least, on a given instrument that may otherwise be too responsive, too loud, etc. However, trumpet, euphonium, and tuba players, and even the new norm of raw brass French horns, prefer the opposite!

Therefore, trombone players are uniquely different in their concepts of the 'lacquer effect,' and most are spraying on lacquer to their delight!

Best,
Steve
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« Reply #96 on: Dec 31, 2016, 12:34PM »

By the way, am I the first to notice the typo in the subject line or the last?

Whatever you're plating with, you only want a sliver, right?
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« Reply #97 on: Dec 31, 2016, 12:35PM »

SLIVER, vs. SILVER

I could not correct it once it was responded to once!!! :D

SLIPPERY would be more appropriate!

Delightful, we have kept this fun and enjoyable!
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« Reply #98 on: Dec 31, 2016, 12:37PM »

... the next question would be why does lacquer deaden the sound?
Because lacquer has a low modulus of elasticity.  This means that if a piece of lacquer is bent (say by a mechanical wave passing through it) it does not return quickly, or at all if the displacement is significant, to is original configuration.  The net effect is that the wave is damped rapidly as it passes through the lacquer.

One could just say that lacquer is a dissipative rather than elastic material.
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« Reply #99 on: Dec 31, 2016, 12:39PM »

Yes. I'd say this thread has scientifically proven that laquer is no bueno...

This is like that other thread that scientifically proved that the Friedman trombone was without a doubt the number one trombone. Then the OP changed slides because the other slide was better.

These crazy threads don't prove anything. The variables that exist with the player outweigh ANY effect that plating or laquer would cause.

Trombonists are in denial... I doubt it. Everyone is just different.
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