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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: tbone62, slide advantage) Brass vs. Nickel Slides: Spectral Comparison
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Author Topic: Brass vs. Nickel Slides: Spectral Comparison  (Read 4375 times)
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BGuttman
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« Reply #80 on: Jan 05, 2017, 06:33PM »

Marsh, your sarcasm knows no bounds.

Rest assured, among the ashes of the records burnt when Conn moved from Elkhart to Abilene are notebooks of data and observations rom the 1930s and Burkle.

We need the techies like Burkle and the artists like Severinson to get the great instruments we have now.
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Bruce Guttman
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BillO
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« Reply #81 on: Jan 05, 2017, 08:27PM »

Ah, my eyes grow dim and I approach the waning of my youth, but I shall never forget what my old prof always said to me. He always said to me, every lesson, as I sat in his studio: " Son, what this crazy old trombone world really needs is page after page of mathematical calculations, and thousands of graphs..... maybe even more graphs than calculations..... I dunno......but when that day comes we'll be getting somewhere........"
Har, har.

Hey, here's and idea ... let's just all toss the notion of science, eh?  All that math 'n' stuff .. we don' need no stink'n' math 'n' stuff.  Caves an' furs man!  That's where it's at.

Instructions:  Place bowel movement on things you don't understand.  Repeat as required.

Yeah, sorry folks. 
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« Reply #82 on: Jan 05, 2017, 08:33PM »

I've had people buy the tightest leadpipes I make and swear they are the most open pipes they've ever played.

That's exactly right. For certain kinds of players a tight leadpipe allows them to relax and just let the air go, and it feels more open for them than a big pipe. It's not true for everyone, but for the people that need it, it can be a revelation.

Chuck McAlexander used to tell nothing about the pipes on his rack. He would just say to play them until something felt good. And then he'd still tell you nothing about it.
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Gabe Langfur
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« Reply #83 on: Jan 05, 2017, 08:39PM »

Isn't that what he still does? :)
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« Reply #84 on: Jan 05, 2017, 08:41PM »

Har, har.

Hey, here's and idea ... let's just all toss the notion of science, eh?  All that math 'n' stuff .. we don' need no stink'n' math 'n' stuff.  Caves an' furs man!  That's where it's at.

Instructions:  Place bowel movement on things you don't understand.  Repeat as required.

Yeah, sorry folks. 
Science is great and I love all of its disciplines. This isn't good science. It doesn't follow the scientific method.
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« Reply #85 on: Jan 05, 2017, 08:52PM »

Science is great and I love all of its disciplines. This isn't good science. It doesn't follow the scientific method.
Maybe not Steven's stuff, but Alestair Braden's stuff certainly does - and was also mentioned and posted here.  Since Steven mentioned no math, I have to assume bonesmarsh was referring in a large part to Alestair Braden.  Hence my snarky reply to a snarky issuance.
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« Reply #86 on: Jan 05, 2017, 09:04PM »

Gotcha! I have not read that doctoral thesis but it it highly regarded!
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« Reply #87 on: Jan 06, 2017, 04:08AM »

I wasn't referring to any specific person or theory at all.

We're talking about an almost completely UNevolved length of tubing that expands and contracts in length at the will of the player to produce a sound. It has been that way since at least the year 1400. (??)
Lets just assume that there is at least over 500 years of trial and error.

Science is good. Experiment is good. Math is good. I'd like to see some empirical evidence to demonstrate why, when my bandleader hires one of his former students to play 5th trumpet on paid gigs, and the player can't play I am glad to have a nickle silver slide to defeat the lousy sounds coming out of a kid who never learned to play, and doesn't care to practice his trumpet now that he has a degree?
Now, that is a paper I'd read.
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« Reply #88 on: Jan 06, 2017, 04:25AM »

I wasn't referring to any specific person or theory at all.

We're talking about an almost completely UNevolved length of tubing that expands and contracts in length at the will of the player to produce a sound. It has been that way since at least the year 1400. (??)
Lets just assume that there is at least over 500 years of trial and error.

Science is good. Experiment is good. Math is good. I'd like to see some empirical evidence to demonstrate why, when my bandleader hires one of his former students to play 5th trumpet on paid gigs, and the player can't play I am glad to have a nickle silver slide to defeat the lousy sounds coming out of a kid who never learned to play, and doesn't care to practice his trumpet now that he has a degree?
Now, that is a paper I'd read.


I love how regardless of what the topic at hand is, you can always manage to mention a student who "just isn't good enough" in your posts :D

Personally I am interested in the topic and think its worth educating myself in, but im skeptical as to whether this information would be of any use to myself in choosing gear (as it also sounds, are many others in the thread). I can imagine some people swearing by it, and i wouldn't like to try and prove them wrong.

Bonesmarsh im not sure im onboard with the trombone being "an almost completely UNevolved lenth of tubing". I think trombones have evolved drastically.... especially bass trombones.

Why should we assume the PAST 500 years of trial and error were better equipped for understanding trombone than what we are today? Its not like trombone is impossible to improve upon. Who knows? Perhaps this thread will inspire a trial somewhere which leads to a better understanding of how trombone works. As i said, im skeptical but would love to see that be the case.
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« Reply #89 on: Jan 06, 2017, 04:48AM »

Chuck McAlexander used to tell nothing about the pipes on his rack. He would just say to play them until something felt good. And then he'd still tell you nothing about it.

I still think that's the best approach.

The biggest benefit of the scientific approach to this topic, IMO, is not so much to give us results, but to show us how easily we can fool ourselves if we're not careful.  And sometimes even when we are. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #90 on: Jan 06, 2017, 06:04AM »

I still think that's the best approach.

The biggest benefit of the scientific approach to this topic, IMO, is not so much to give us results, but to show us how easily we can fool ourselves if we're not careful.  And sometimes even when we are. 

Not sure with leadpipes, but I know that with mouthpieces and complete horns, novelty has a far greater effect than any of the others. We notice what's different, and can often interpret different as better. We've had quite a few threads where someone says something like "I just put my 4H slide on my 88H, and WOW!! I'll be playing only that for the rest of my life!!" and then when reality kicks in, they go back to the stock set-up. I would bet that leadpipes are the same.
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« Reply #91 on: Jan 06, 2017, 06:10AM »

I'd like to see some empirical evidence to demonstrate why, when my bandleader hires one of his former students to play 5th trumpet on paid gigs, and the player can't play I am glad to have a nickle silver slide to defeat the lousy sounds coming out of a kid who never learned to play, and doesn't care to practice his trumpet now that he has a degree?

I haven't actually experimented with this, but I'm pretty confident in the theory. If you beat him senseless with a lightweight nickel slide, it will take significantly longer than if you were using a slide with sleeved outers and thicker tubing. Leaving the rubber bumper off leaves more evidence and can lead to a jail time. Amado water keys are also better on weaponized slides. Heavy red brass slides are the easiest to repair after they've been used as a weapon. 
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« Reply #92 on: Jan 06, 2017, 06:53AM »

Science is good. Experiment is good. Math is good. I'd like to see some empirical evidence to demonstrate why, when my bandleader hires one of his former students to play 5th trumpet on paid gigs, and the player can't play I am glad to have a nickle silver slide to defeat the lousy sounds coming out of a kid who never learned to play, and doesn't care to practice his trumpet now that he has a degree?
Now, that is a paper I'd read.
I'm not sure there is an equipment choice to deal with that situation that is supported either by scientific theory or empirical data.  Perhaps reading Dale Carnegie's book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" will equip you to be able to get your bandleader to make better choices.

erudition.mohit.tripod.com/_Influence_People.pdf

Worth a try.
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Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

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« Reply #93 on: Jan 06, 2017, 09:09AM »

To me, the problem with threads like this and the one about silver plate, is where does the information gained become useful.
You can do experiments on plate v lacquer, red brass v gold brass, nickel tubes v brass tubes, indi v dependant, wide slide v narrow slide (and almost every other topic which keeps this forum going). You can take the data gained from those experiments and you can try to form some conclusions.
Unless you can get to a point where part A + part B + part C will always = output D for every single player in every situation then what use is the study ?

You can find out some generic information, but will it tell you how those parts will behave for that player? if the player will like the result ? Will instrument fit in with the ensemble the player sits in ?
Regardless of what the science says, if the consumer is happy then does it really matter ?

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« Reply #94 on: Jan 06, 2017, 01:16PM »

Open, closed, whatever. A lot of times "closed" feeling is the same thing as resistance to vibration. Pretty much every choke point/venturi, etc after the mouthpiece throat is far far larger than the mouthpiece throat. The fact that we can feel any type of resistance when we play means that there is a lot more at play than simply the size of the tube we are blowing through.

This thread unfortunately went in a disappointing direction, because some people couldn't resist the urge to be snarky. I find objective scientific stuff to be quite enlightening, and honestly think more of it should be done, now that it is able to be measured easily. it helps to serve as a guide when designing a horn, with a lot of "all things being equal" ideas.  Because that's what they really are.

You can't say "nickel slides sound bright" and have it be an accurate statement. You can say "all things being equal, you'll generally get a brighter more focused sound with nickel outer slides than you will with brass".

These aren't "rules", they are guidelines, and are of great help to someone looking for a horn that best suits their needs.
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David Sullivan
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BGuttman
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« Reply #95 on: Jan 06, 2017, 02:19PM »

What we get from this kind of analysis is some indication of what constitutes "bright" versus "mellow". 

Each player has a "native" sound which may have some deficiencies and selecting the appropriate equipment can compensate for them.  A "bright" horn can help somebody who has a relatively warm sound while a warm horn can compensate for somebody with a relatively bright sound.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #96 on: Jan 06, 2017, 06:05PM »

To me, the problem with threads like this and the one about silver plate, is where does the information gained become useful.
You can do experiments on plate v lacquer, red brass v gold brass, nickel tubes v brass tubes, indi v dependant, wide slide v narrow slide (and almost every other topic which keeps this forum going). You can take the data gained from those experiments and you can try to form some conclusions.
Unless you can get to a point where part A + part B + part C will always = output D for every single player in every situation then what use is the study ?

You can find out some generic information, but will it tell you how those parts will behave for that player? if the player will like the result ? Will instrument fit in with the ensemble the player sits in ?
Regardless of what the science says, if the consumer is happy then does it really matter ?


Look at it this way: Manufacturers that make golf clubs have a machine that can hit the ball pretty consistently, and they use those machines to test their designs. Now, let's say the machine can hit a particular driver 350 yards. I cannot hit the ball that far, and my direction and distance are not very consistent. So is it a complete waste of time for the company to try to improve their clubs using science and technology? No, I don't think it's a waste of time at all. Sure, not every end user will get the exact same result with the equipment, but it's still possible to understand the tendencies of what the equipment does and compare and contrast it with what other equipment does.
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« Reply #97 on: Jan 07, 2017, 01:41AM »

The OP is no longer here. I think it is better to lock his threads down as he cannot reply.

Chris Stearn.
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