Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1076581 Posts in 71364 Topics- by 18943 Members - Latest Member: LBHS Trombone 1st Chair
Jump to:  
The Trombone ForumCreation and PerformancePerformance(Moderator: BGuttman) Oliver! The musical - First time playing in the pit/brass ensemble
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Oliver! The musical - First time playing in the pit/brass ensemble  (Read 2209 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
LeoC
*
Offline Offline

Location: La Crescent MN/Galesville WI
Joined: Jun 11, 2016
Posts: 23

View Profile
« on: Jan 03, 2017, 04:57PM »

Hello everyone! I come to you with two "questions":

My high school has a play every year done by our drama club. This year the selection is Oliver. My band director suggested I should join the pit orchestra, so I talked to the pit orchestra director and I got the job. I got a glance at the music, and I noticed that most of it is meant to be played on tenor trombone, but there are a few spots where I'm indicated to switch to bass trombone or euphonium. This is my first time being part of a pit orchestra, I'm primarily a euph and bass trombone player, and that I have never heard of this musical before.

Secondly, an older trumpet player invited me to join a brass quintet he's forming. We met in a community band where he plays trumpet and I am one of the two bass trombonists. I have played euphonium and tuba with my high school brass ensembles, which are usually formed by 10+ players and my part was always doubled by 1 or 2 players. I already have the music we will be playing, and it's all from the Canadian Brass Book of Favorite Quintets Intermediate Level. Similar situation with the musical, this is my first time playing with a brass quintet where I am the only one playing my part.

In addition that all that, I am not very good at playing tenor, mainly because my slide technique is not the best (range is not a problem), but I am working to improve it.
I'd appreciate any advice you could give me.
Logged
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 5709

View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Jan 03, 2017, 05:14PM »

High school drama club?  Do it on the horn you are familiar with.

They may put on a fine production but putting it on with all high school students is quite a departure from the original casting so... why do you need to be 100% authentic when they are not?

I did Oliver many years ago.  Must have been a different arrangement because I don't recall any switches to bass trombone or euphonium, but I did it all on my bass trombone even though the book was labeled just "trombone".
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
LeoC
*
Offline Offline

Location: La Crescent MN/Galesville WI
Joined: Jun 11, 2016
Posts: 23

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Jan 03, 2017, 05:26PM »


why do you need to be 100% authentic when they are not?


Good point. The play is in 3 months, so maybe I can get used to playing tenor? My only problem is accuracy with the slide

Must have been a different arrangement because I don't recall any switches to bass trombone or euphonium, but I did it all on my bass trombone even though the book was labeled just "trombone".

I think this arrangement is from 2008 but I'm not 100% sure. This arrangement also calls for straight and cup mutes.
Logged
MikeBMiller
Best trombone player on my street.
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Sep 18, 2009
Posts: 1049

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Jan 03, 2017, 05:48PM »

Make sure you get at least 50 bucks a show! :D
Logged
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 5709

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Jan 03, 2017, 05:55PM »

Do you have any other reason to play a tenor? Apparently not.

Just play the bass and don't even bring the subject up. Again... high school drama club.

It is indeed a famous musical, based on a famous Charles Dickens book.

Lots of strong songs. A traditional classic golden age type of stage musical. You might check out a cast album to get a feel for the style.  There was also a 1968 movie of it.
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 50536
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Jan 03, 2017, 07:29PM »

As to the brass quintet, which book did they give you?  The Trombone or the Tuba?

Donald Knaub used to play the trombone book in the Ithaca Brass Quintet on a single valve bass.  It sounded pretty nice.  Good blend when you are against a large tuba.

I wouldn't sweat using tenor.  Just play it on a horn you are comfortable with.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
LeoC
*
Offline Offline

Location: La Crescent MN/Galesville WI
Joined: Jun 11, 2016
Posts: 23

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Jan 03, 2017, 08:56PM »

As to the brass quintet, which book did they give you?  The Trombone or the Tuba?

I got trombone
Logged
JasonDonnelly
Unfortunate Amateur

*
Offline Offline

Location: Central Florida
Joined: Jan 12, 2015
Posts: 55

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Jan 03, 2017, 09:01PM »

Use the bass unless the music is so demanding that you can't consistently hit the notes (ie. too high). Then maybe pick up a tenor.
Logged

Bach Stradivarius 50B3 (Ferguson JR)
Soverign/Boosey and Hawkes Globe Euphonium (Denis Wick SM4U)
Olds Custom P-16 (Bach 6 1/2 AL)
LeoC
*
Offline Offline

Location: La Crescent MN/Galesville WI
Joined: Jun 11, 2016
Posts: 23

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Jan 03, 2017, 09:35PM »

Use the bass unless the music is so demanding that you can't consistently hit the notes (ie. too high). Then maybe pick up a tenor.

That's what I was thinking. I'll definitely play bass unless I find too many notes above  Tenor Clef . I did actually see a few bars written in tenor clef.

Thank you for all your responses  :)
Logged
BillO
Trying to be better.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 2741

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Jan 03, 2017, 09:45PM »

Most pit work I've done goes above G.  Are you the only trombone?
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
LeoC
*
Offline Offline

Location: La Crescent MN/Galesville WI
Joined: Jun 11, 2016
Posts: 23

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: Jan 03, 2017, 10:05PM »

Most pit work I've done goes above G.  Are you the only trombone?

I am possibly gonna be the only trombone. I normally play bass on a 2G, so I guess I could switch to a smaller mouthpiece such as a 6 & 1/2 AL or a 5G if it gets too high.
Logged
MrPillow
Organologique et plus!

*
Offline Offline

Location: Vermillion, SD
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 1518

View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: Jan 03, 2017, 10:10PM »

It's highly unlikely that anyone could care if you simply took the higher parts down an octave, instead of sacrificing your overall playing quality by using a mouthpiece you're not used to.
Logged

King 3B/F Silversonic - King 608F - Holton Paul Whiteman Model
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12038

View Profile
« Reply #12 on: Jan 04, 2017, 05:37AM »

Some people hate pits.  I think they're just about the most fun thing you can ever do, in or out of music.  I would play more of them if there weren't better players around who own those gigs.  The four I've played have been a challenge for endurance and rhythmic accuracy. 

Advice:  listen to recordings.  You need to get the feel of the style, not just play the notes.  There is no recording possible that will exactly match your music because ALL musicals have cuts and no two have them in the same place, but there's no excuse for not knowing the musical itself pretty well long before the first rehearsal.  There will probably be lots of different mutes, some of which you don't have.  You can probably borrow from the band room but it's a high school production and they aren't going to be fanatics.  I've played where the trumpet section was casual about it and so I just matched them - if they played a section all on straight mutes there was no point in me doing fast changes to cup and bucket even if the score called for it.  It's a lot harder for us since we can't play one handed while grabbing the mute. 

Better advice:  see this as a chance to develop the skills that are FAR more important than tone, technique, or range - being easy to get along with.  That will get you called back over guys who play better. 
Logged

Tim Richardson
MattR1

*
Offline Offline

Location: Bristol, UK
Joined: May 10, 2013
Posts: 206

View Profile
« Reply #13 on: Jan 04, 2017, 10:11AM »

Firstly, congratulations on getting to play in the band, as someone else has already said playing pit gigs can be great fun. As someone who spends at least half the year in a pit I definitely agree. Shows can be extremely challenging to play but as far as Oliver goes, it is one of the easier ones. I've played it loads of times but have never played a version with doubling parts so I can't comment on the Euph or Bass bone parts. If you are playing it in school don't worry about playing the book exactly as written and just enjoy it. Some of the doubling books I've played require instrument changes in near impossible amounts of time whilst juggling a full set of mutes in your spare hand. Doubling takes practise and I'm sure your musical director would be happy if you played the part on whatever instrument your most comfortable on and  In most cases the shows are led from a piano conductor score that may not have the instrument changes marked.  Have fun!!
Logged

Weril Gagliardi II Alto Doug Elliott LT103, C+, D3
Rath R3 Doug Elliott LT103, D/D3, F/F3
Rath R4F LT103,  G+, G8
Holton TR181 Bass Doug Elliott SB108, J, J8
Cerveny Eb Tuba Bach 24AW
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 50536
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: Jan 04, 2017, 10:22AM »

I think the biggest challenge in playing shows is being adaptable enough that when a performer does something unexpected you are ready.  Things like missing a chorus.  Or singing the tune out of order.  Or missing a line.  Means knowing the book so cold that you are ready in a trice.

Also, keeping track of the cuts and reprises that are not in the book.  I remember they put a section from another song in a "playoff" that required shuffling back a dozen pages to catch.  Sometimes a little time with a good copier can help a lot.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12038

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: Jan 04, 2017, 11:56AM »

Oh, and mark your parts in soft pencil, B at least, nothing harder, and erase thoroughly before giving it back.  I use one of those battery powered erasers, about $10 at an office supply store. 
Logged

Tim Richardson
JasonDonnelly
Unfortunate Amateur

*
Offline Offline

Location: Central Florida
Joined: Jan 12, 2015
Posts: 55

View Profile
« Reply #16 on: Jan 04, 2017, 02:34PM »

I think the biggest challenge in playing shows is being adaptable enough that when a performer does something unexpected you are ready.  Things like missing a chorus.  Or singing the tune out of order.  Or missing a line.  Means knowing the book so cold that you are ready in a trice.

Also, keeping track of the cuts and reprises that are not in the book.  I remember they put a section from another song in a "playoff" that required shuffling back a dozen pages to catch.  Sometimes a little time with a good copier can help a lot.

"Man of La Mancha" has this motif that they play every time they open or close a drawbridge. It happens about a dozen times in the show, and the music is only on the first page of the whole book. I was subbing in the bass trombone book one night for a friend and the thing caught me off guard every time. Ended up memorizing the part during the show out of necessity. 
Logged

Bach Stradivarius 50B3 (Ferguson JR)
Soverign/Boosey and Hawkes Globe Euphonium (Denis Wick SM4U)
Olds Custom P-16 (Bach 6 1/2 AL)
BillO
Trying to be better.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 2741

View Profile
« Reply #17 on: Jan 04, 2017, 05:35PM »

A lot of the time I used to just copy everything, make my own book and piece it together in order, duplicating bits as required and doing actual cut and paste.
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 50536
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: Jan 04, 2017, 05:42PM »

A lot of the time I used to just copy everything, make my own book and piece it together in order, duplicating bits as required and doing actual cut and paste.

Yup.  It's illegal, but it works.  And I can make markings in color or wide marker on the copy (which I'm probably going to destroy after the gig).
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
BillO
Trying to be better.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 2741

View Profile
« Reply #19 on: Jan 04, 2017, 08:34PM »

(which I'm probably going to destroy after the gig).
Absolutely!!!
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
vegasbound
There are 2 types of trombone player....Urbie & everyone else!

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Aug 2, 2008
Posts: 2506
"Get your tee shirt from http://www.derekwatkins.co"


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: Jan 05, 2017, 02:14AM »

As others have said, watch the movie of the show, some of the songs have becom standards, you will have at least one band call before the run throughs probably a lot more as it i a school, be prepared the best you can be.....have a soft pencil, maybe post it notes and or paperclips for the inevitable changes/cuts etc..it depends on how experienced the MD is and how good as to how enjoyable the show is  ...but you do build a good amaount of anecdotes!!

e.g  A few years back I got a last minute call to do a theatre school production of 'Les Mis' (previous orchestration not current) The Sunday band call the MD did not show up after frantic phone calls they got a guy who had sung in the west end and touring versions of the show to MD, band call started 2 hours late, the keys player walked out during the band call as he couldnt play the show and the girl booked to play 2nd keys did not turn up, so the new MD covered that for rehearsal....on to the Monday technical unthrough, I had managed to get a friend of mine who was an MD on P&O to cover the keys part, so technical rehearsal starts and it is clear to everyone that the girl on 2nd keys didnt have the ability to get through the book.... so she quit at the break...... 1st performance the MD had called in a good friend of his who just happened to be the MD putting together the pro touring version of the show so he was auditioning cast members during the day and playing with us at night! 

Sad to say the trumpets where not upto it but would not quit and as they had connections with the theatre school the MD could not sack them!


Logged

'There will never come a day when I don't need to practice'- JJ Johnson
ronnies
*
Offline Offline

Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: Jul 18, 2016
Posts: 109

View Profile
« Reply #21 on: Jan 05, 2017, 05:28AM »

We did "Oliver" when I was at school.  I played 2nd trombone (of two if I remember correctly).  Don't remember having to jump about to find different bits to play it just went straight through.  I managed most of it despite being in first year at secondary school (about 13 years old).

Probably the most notable feature of the performance was having Malcolm Martineau (well known accompanist now) singing on stage.

Ronnie

Logged

--
Slowly getting back into it...
Roscotrombone
*
Offline Offline

Location: Bonnyrigg,Scotland
Joined: Dec 10, 2014
Posts: 73

View Profile
« Reply #22 on: Jan 05, 2017, 07:29AM »

Quote
I'm primarily a euph and bass trombone player


In addition that all that, I am not very good at playing tenor, mainly because my slide technique is not the best (range is not a problem), but I am working to improve it.
I'd appreciate any advice you could give me.


If you can manage the part on bass bone then don't sweat it but I'm failing to understand why your slide technique isn't very good on the tenor - yes there's marginal differences in where each position is on ANY bone so if you can play the bass well enough to do a show part then I can't see why doing it on tenor should be any different outwith mouthpiece size.

Just a thought

<Edit: Fixed Quote>
« Last Edit: Jan 05, 2017, 01:13PM by BGuttman » Logged

Trombones are for life,not just for Christmas
BillO
Trying to be better.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 2741

View Profile
« Reply #23 on: Jan 05, 2017, 02:51PM »

Just wentr through my old music locker - cleaning out duplicates and odd stuff.  I came across some of my old pit books.  Two for "The music man" in 1990.  I remember that.  I was going to play 2nd and copied the book for that, but never edited it.  It turned out I was the only trombone player available that had an "F" attachment (a really nasty Abilene 88H) so got moved over to 3rd.  The range on that part is from high G to pedal Bb with lots of low Eb, D, C and B#.

The other was "Annie Get Your Gun" that we did in 1993.  For this on I was again to play 2nd, but the 3rd trombone dropped out less than a week before the show.  The book is a combination of 2nd and 3rd trombone parts.  Mostly 2nd, but the 3rd part was more important in places, so I'd switch for those tunes.  The range for the combined books goes from pedal Bb to high Bb.  Again, played on that awful 88H.  I had to get the valve re-built on that thing after only 3 years.  I also had the bracing shifted to release strain and the slide needed to be honed as it never worked properly.  All to no avail.  It still played like dirt, but that's another story.

I think if you have to play high often (much above middle C), you might want to think about a smaller MP, or even a large bore tenor.  It can be quite tiring to play a full sized bass in the high end of it's range for hours.








Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
LeoC
*
Offline Offline

Location: La Crescent MN/Galesville WI
Joined: Jun 11, 2016
Posts: 23

View Profile
« Reply #24 on: Jan 09, 2017, 08:11AM »

If you can manage the part on bass bone then don't sweat it but I'm failing to understand why your slide technique isn't very good on the tenor - yes there's marginal differences in where each position is on ANY bone so if you can play the bass well enough to do a show part then I can't see why doing it on tenor should be any different outwith mouthpiece size.

Sorry about that. I meant that my slide technique on tenor is not as good as on bass because I'm not used to the intonation of the tenor I have access to. I've noticed that I'm a bit out of tune in the tenor when I play above  . But you're right, I could play my part on a tenor just as if I was playing bass. I would just have practice and play scales on the tenor.

Also, there is a song that has a making that reads "On G Trombone if possible". The first few bars are high E's, F#'s, A's, and B naturals. I think I can play that high on the bass, but I'll drop it an octave if it's too much to handle. I wonder what they mean by G trombone. Isn't a G trombone a bass trombone pitched in  ?
Logged
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 5709

View Profile
« Reply #25 on: Jan 09, 2017, 10:11AM »


Also, there is a song that has a making that reads "On G Trombone if possible".

That is very odd. I shall be curious to hear plausible explanations for that.

Who is the publisher of this arrangement?
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12038

View Profile
« Reply #26 on: Jan 09, 2017, 11:27AM »

That's a new one on me.  Is there an unplayable gliss somewhere?
Logged

Tim Richardson
Carolus
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jul 15, 2012
Posts: 54

View Profile
« Reply #27 on: Jan 09, 2017, 12:50PM »

Also, there is a song that has a making that reads "On G Trombone if possible". The first few bars are high E's, F#'s, A's, and B naturals. I think I can play that high on the bass, but I'll drop it an octave if it's too much to handle. I wonder what they mean by G trombone. Isn't a G trombone a bass trombone pitched in  ?

I hear that part is  written in a funny way, transposed, not in concert pitch... 
Logged
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12038

View Profile
« Reply #28 on: Jan 09, 2017, 03:45PM »

This was interesting:

http://archive.choralnet.org/view/222315
Logged

Tim Richardson
ronnies
*
Offline Offline

Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: Jul 18, 2016
Posts: 109

View Profile
« Reply #29 on: Jan 09, 2017, 11:50PM »

I hear that part is  written in a funny way, transposed, not in concert pitch... 

I doubt it.  Never ever heard of a transposing part for a G bass trombone.

I don't remember ever seeing that on my 2nd part when we did "Oliver".  Must be a different arrangement.

Ronnie
Logged

--
Slowly getting back into it...
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 5709

View Profile
« Reply #30 on: Jan 10, 2017, 07:21AM »

I hear that part is  written in a funny way, transposed, not in concert pitch... 

Who did you hear that from?
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
LeoC
*
Offline Offline

Location: La Crescent MN/Galesville WI
Joined: Jun 11, 2016
Posts: 23

View Profile
« Reply #31 on: Jan 17, 2017, 09:24PM »

Who is the publisher of this arrangement?

Dakota Music 2008 version
Logged
Max Croot
*
Offline Offline

Location: Bomaderry 2541 N.S.W. Aust.
Joined: Jul 12, 2000
Posts: 711

View Profile
« Reply #32 on: Jan 18, 2017, 03:17PM »

Hi. It's a fun show. I did it all on a large bore tenor. It moved so fast that I played the eupho parts on trom as there wasn't enough time to change instruments. As far as a G trombone is concerned the music is the same no matter what the pitch of the trombone. It's silly to say G bass trombone on the part, it can be played on any trombone. Max
Logged

Bass Clef
ahconway
I mean to begin with a guinea pig, and work my way through the animal kingdom till I come to a second trombone.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Arlington MA
Joined: Nov 22, 2009
Posts: 66

View Profile
« Reply #33 on: Feb 01, 2017, 04:59PM »

It's interesting that this old arrangement (Dakota Music???) refers to a G trombone.... I played the Tams Witmark "combo" orchestration last year, which was a straightforward tenor book I believe.

Some time between then and now, MTI has acquired the rights from TW, and now the one basic arrangement has one trombone part, doubling euph and bass - but there are "alternate" parts, which calls for Trombone II to double on a G trombone.
Logged

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
President, Chelmsford Community Band
Trustee, The Sudbury Savoyards
Yamaha YSL-651
Yamaha Xeno YSL-882GO
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
livecat

*
Offline Offline

Location: Lincoln, NE
Joined: Dec 31, 2004
Posts: 208

View Profile
« Reply #34 on: Feb 02, 2017, 06:01AM »

I played in a production of "Oliver" a couple of years ago.  The Music Director opted for the original London/West End orchestration , a woodwind quintet with added violin, cello,bass,trombone, piano, and 2 percussion.   Worked really well, I thought. 
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: