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Author Topic: Trumpet player starting on the Pbone  (Read 1273 times)
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bonenick

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« Reply #20 on: Jan 12, 2017, 02:26AM »

I am no expert, but I still think that relatively small bore with F trigger is best suited for your situation. The high notes take some time and practice. At first my range was very limited, but I get around 3.5-4 octaves at the moment. Most of these high notes start to manifest themselves as a squeak at first, but with the time they gain on core and consistency. As for the trombone, I still thing that the King 3BF is a good horn to have/test.
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The Dutch Guy
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« Reply #21 on: Jan 12, 2017, 02:40AM »

Hey Bonerick,

I'll definitely try the King 3B+F. I was planning on trying all Conn and King horns anyway.
I see that many brands use the numbers 2 - 5 in their horn models. Like in this case the King 3B or 4B, or Courtois 3B. Does that actually mean something?
Can I tell from the number what difference / similarity I can expect?
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Ted
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« Reply #22 on: Jan 12, 2017, 02:58AM »

Although I started on a 4BF (also changed from trumpet to trombone 3 years ago), in hindsight a 3B(+F) would be better for me. For most street performances or local pubs a 3B should be just fine.

Here in the west of Brabant, I tend to see lots of 3B(F) type trombone in hoompah bands. As you're close to Eindhoven, maybe Mark Boonstra is available for a few lessons?

Tot Renesse :)
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bonenick

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« Reply #23 on: Jan 12, 2017, 03:20AM »

Does that actually mean something?
Can I tell from the number what difference / similarity I can expect?

As far as I understand, the biggest the number, the biggest the bore and accordingly the size and flare of the bell.2B is considered as the ultimate peashooter .481-.491 bore, the 3B is a little bigger, .508 bore, while the 4B is almost symphonic, .547 if I remember correctly. That's of course rather a simplistic presentation, but true in general
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The Dutch Guy
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« Reply #24 on: Jan 12, 2017, 03:42AM »

Ah, I thought it would be something like that.
Based on that, I'll look for a 3B+F horn. That seems to be the most 'all round' thing to get :)

Hmmm. Mark Boonstra. Never heard of him. I'll look him up in a minute. I thought about getting a few lessons just to make sure I start more or less OK, but hadn't found a suitable instructor yet.

And Ted: See you in Renesse  Hi
What band are you in?


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Ted
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« Reply #25 on: Jan 12, 2017, 04:57AM »

I've send you a PB
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The Dutch Guy
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« Reply #26 on: Jan 12, 2017, 05:33AM »

Thanks! I got it.
The guy seems nice. I might actually contact him for a lesson or 2, just to make sure that I don't get any bad habits from the start.
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bhcordova
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« Reply #27 on: Jan 12, 2017, 09:52AM »

The Conn Director is a beginner horn.  Olds Ambassadors have a good reputation.  The King 3b has a great reputation. I believe the Bundy is a beginner horn.  I think some of the models you have listed are alto trombones (I'm sure someone here can correct me.)  I've heard nothing but good things about Yamaha trombones. 
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Billy Cordova, MBA
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BGuttman
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« Reply #28 on: Jan 12, 2017, 10:32AM »

Dutch:

Your observation about numbers and bore size is only coincidentally correct and NEVER between brands.

The King trombones get bigger with bigger numbers, as do the Bach.  But Conn, Yamaha, Holton, etc. NO.  Possibly at one time they might.  For example, the Conn 4H, 6H, and 8H are progressively larger but a 24H is the size of a 4H, a 48H is the size of a 6H, etc. 

I would bet that there is no chance that a Courtois 3B is the same size as a King 3B.

King has a well defined family (inch measurements, sorry):

2B: dual bore, 0.481"/0.491"
2B+: single bore, 0.500"
3B: single bore, 0.508"
3B+: single bore, 0.525"
4B: single bore, 0.547"
5B: a 4B with a larger bell.
6B: dependent double trigger bass, 0.562" bore
7B: independent double trigger bass, 0.562" bore
8B: a 7B with a larger bell

Bach has a similar setup:

6: single bore, 0.485"
8: single bore, 0.495"
12: single bore, 0.500"
16: dual bore, 0.495:/0.509"
34: single bore, 0.522" (obsolete)
36: single bore, 0.525"
42: single bore, 0.547"
45: a 42 with a larger bell (obsolete)
50: Bass (various valve configurations) 0.562"

German trombones come with Weite sizes and these go from small to large.  All are dual bore.

But a Yamaha 691 is NOT bigger than a 682; in fact, quite the opposite.
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Bruce Guttman
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The Dutch Guy
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« Reply #29 on: Jan 12, 2017, 03:21PM »

Ah, well that complicates things again.
So, try all the Kings, Conns, and Yamahas. Got it :)

I got a mouthpiece today to replace the plastic Pbone mouthpiece. It's a Benge 12C.
Is that any good to start on? I saw someone mention that anything between a 6.5 and 12 was OK, but that was Bach measurements. I'm assuming those are the same as the ones from Benge?

I'm gonna play this one for a week or 2 (If I can stand the pbone for that long) and then take them to the store and try out some other horns.
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bonenick

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« Reply #30 on: Jan 12, 2017, 03:42PM »

You can try also COURTOIS-Bb/F-Trombone Prelude 250B, I was told that it was good, though marked is intermediate model.
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bhcordova
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« Reply #31 on: Jan 12, 2017, 04:40PM »

Ah, well that complicates things again.
So, try all the Kings, Conns, and Yamahas. Got it :)

I got a mouthpiece today to replace the plastic Pbone mouthpiece. It's a Benge 12C.
Is that any good to start on? I saw someone mention that anything between a 6.5 and 12 was OK, but that was Bach measurements. I'm assuming those are the same as the ones from Benge?

I'm gonna play this one for a week or 2 (If I can stand the pbone for that long) and then take them to the store and try out some other horns.

And of course, Bach mouthpiece sizes go from large to small - a Bach 6.5 is larger than a Bach 12c
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« Reply #32 on: Jan 12, 2017, 06:49PM »

Benge 12C is similar in size to a Bach 12C.  Use it for a while and see what is good and bad about it.  There are some great jazz players using a 12C or 11C on a smallish bore.  For your work I would eventually move to a 7C or 6.5AL.  But that can be a year or more out.
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Bruce Guttman
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bonenick

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« Reply #33 on: Jan 13, 2017, 02:26AM »

I started on a rather bad copy (Chinese, no markings) of 6 1/2, then switched to 7 C (wedge, small shank). It suits me just fine :/
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The Dutch Guy
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« Reply #34 on: Jan 18, 2017, 07:11AM »

Hi all,
So here's an update!

I borrowed an old metal trombone from a friend who apparently had one lying around. It's a Beusscher Aristocrat (or something like that).
Old, dusty and dinged up, but the slide seems to work OK. I've played on it a bit, and I have decided to not touch the PBone anymore :)
That metal slide makes a HUGE difference.

I found someone very close by who happens to have a few horns for sale. They are a King 608, and both a laquered and silver plated B4. All with attachment, and maybe some others. Price wise, the 608 is a LOT cheaper. From what I read, it's also a medium bore, correct?
I'm having a chat with him later today, and may or may not end up trying them out within the next week or so.

I also contacted the teacher mentioned a few posts earlier. I'll probably get a few lessons to make sure I don't do anything stupid.

And regarding the band: I have reached the point where I can play all songs from our band, more or less. I am still dependent on the positions I wrote above the notes, but I expect that this will change in time. I only have issues with the very low and very high notes. Say, a melodic passage around low C, or high notes around A above the high F. Everything in between is going pretty well. I've had 2 rehearsals, and have the 3rd one on friday.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #35 on: Jan 18, 2017, 07:38AM »

The 608 is a medium bore and is considered a "step-up" instrument.  They play pretty well and I doubt you will hear the difference between that and a "pro" horn for quite some time.

The 4B is a large bore.  I personally like it for concert band playing, although I know they have been used in orchestra (I used a 5B for a while).

The way to get familiar with the trombone positions is the same way you learned trumpet valves.  Play some simple exercises and get used to finding where the notes are.

Extending your range means working on exercises that go from where you can play into the areas that are a challenge.  It's no different from how you learned trumpet.

Good luck.  Carnaval is coming.  Enjoy the season.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #36 on: Jan 19, 2017, 02:52AM »

Next update:

I'll visit the guy next week and try out some horns. He offered to let me try out one for them for a few weeks at home as well, so that's nice.
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