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The Trombone ForumCreation and PerformancePerformance(Moderator: BGuttman) Please comment as I'm playing this classical piece using slide vibrato
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watermailonman

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« on: Jan 22, 2017, 12:38PM »

Hello  Hi

I have done a new recording of the "After A Dream" by G. Faure and on this recording I only use slide vibrato.

For this I used my small bore Kanstul 1555 with the W9 mouthpipe and the K. Hammond 13M mouthpiece.

The advanage to use the small bore is that the slide is easier, not so heavy which means the slide vibrato is easier to do, and air also lasts a little longer.
I did not need to break ALL long phrases using this setup. On the previous recordings with the Kanstul KBT-760, Kanstul 1570 and the Conn 88H I felt the air did not last very long.

This is the new recording with the Kanstul 1555 and my Hammond 13M: https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724/after-a-dream-1

Please listen and comment.

The previous recording with the Conn 88H and the Hammond 12ML is also on sound cloud https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724/after-a-dream

I would very much appreciate comments by Doug, Svenne, Sabutin, Leif, Blast and others who want to help. 

/Tom
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bigbassbone1

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« Reply #1 on: Jan 22, 2017, 01:52PM »

I listened to both and thought i would comment in case its helpful  :)

A lot of good things in both recordings, they were both enjoyable to listen to and such beatiful music.... I hadnt heard that one before but Faure is fantastic. A lot of his vocal writing really suits trombone.

Of the two recordings, personally I thought the one where you say you are playing a 88h was obviously superior. Whilst I did notice a difference in vibrato between the recordings i actually didn't think it was drastic and the slide vibrato did not really bother me, which i was surprised about because usually i dont like it.
In the recording with the Kanstul, I thought that your Legato could have been a bit better. There were several moments where is sounded a bit "smeary" going from one note to the next. Perhaps a quicker slide to fix that? Also a lot of the slurs sounded as thought you were not blowing all the way through. The sound would die away frequently between slurs causing a sort of "swell" effect between notes which I could have done without. The legato was much better in the recording with the 88h. Whist the same issues i described still existed they were much less frequent, and less obvious when they did occur.

Especially in the Kanstul recording, watch that when you take a breath, you end the previous note elegantly, a few times it was a bit abrupt and disrupted the music. Also make sure the articulation on the note AFTER the breath is clean and clear. There were several instances where after you took a breath the start of the next note sounded like it "took you by surprise".

Again, i did enjoy both recordings very much, i didn't hear any major intonation issues and your dynamic control was very pleasant. I liked your phrasing but as i said earlier, make sure your breaths do not interrupt in a big way what you are trying to do with the phrase. Hope there is something useful you can take away in there!
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Andrew Meronek

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« Reply #2 on: Jan 22, 2017, 02:21PM »

I think your slide vibrato actually can be a lot more aggressive, but of course still controlled. My opinion about slide vibrato may apply here thusly:

Make the actual pitch change larger.

Don't go all vibrato-y from the beginning of the note - it's fine to start it later. Depending on the phrasing and style you're going for, of course.

When it does start, make it clear that it's started; don't sneak into it.

Adding interesting dynamics to a note still applies. Really, vibrato should just be a tool to bring out everything else you're doing with a note and with a phrase, whether it's used via slide or not.

I highly recommend you listen to how Yo Yo Ma uses vibrato. The dude has ridiculous control of tone color. Also, one of my favorite trombonists' vibratos belongs to Michel Bechet.
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sfboner

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« Reply #3 on: Jan 22, 2017, 04:06PM »

I don't have time to listen and comment, but regarding your main question, don't be afraid to use slide vibrato (nor a small bore trombone) in French repertoire in general.  It's actually idiomatic.
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« Reply #4 on: Jan 22, 2017, 04:14PM »

I don't have an issue with the slide vibrato....however, the new recording is not as good as the old one IMHO. I like the sound of the 88H better for that kind of music and the new recording...there you can observe that some articulation are sligtly late. I don't know if it is latency or performance issue, but it cripples the performance.
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #5 on: Jan 22, 2017, 04:48PM »

All of the comments I would say have already been said by the others.

Go back to my original comment about your legato,  Your next recording fixed it but since then you've slipped back into old habits.  Plus, I think your attempt at slide vibrato is messing up your legato even more.  Slide vibrato tends to make you (everyone, really) back off the air at the end of the note.  You need to follow through with the air to the next note, and figure out how vibrato fits into that (or doesn't).
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savio

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« Reply #6 on: Jan 23, 2017, 02:42AM »

I liked both of them, but maybe a the one with lip vibrato is a little more pleasant in my ears. But the slide vibrato is surprising nice in this music. There is a little less vibrato, but that can be nice too.

In sound I like the conn, its a bit warmer in my ears. Or it could be the vibrato make it sound warmer. Anyway they have nice sound both. But maybe the conn fit this music a hair better?

Leif


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watermailonman

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« Reply #7 on: Jan 24, 2017, 02:26PM »

All of the comments I would say have already been said by the others.

Go back to my original comment about your legato,  Your next recording fixed it but since then you've slipped back into old habits.  Plus, I think your attempt at slide vibrato is messing up your legato even more.  Slide vibrato tends to make you (everyone, really) back off the air at the end of the note.  You need to follow through with the air to the next note, and figure out how vibrato fits into that (or doesn't).

Thank you all for the comments.

Yes my legato is more "smeary"on this newest recording. It is something that needs work, definitely. The slide vibrato needs a loose grip, and to toss the slide back an forth in a slow triplet-vibrato was not that easy, and then be ready for the next note right on the beat and precise in time, to move the slide fast and concise, and then all the dynamics and the tuning....well I need to put a lot more work into this. I'm happy that nobody found the slide vibrato misplaced. I know I was thinking a lot when I did this take. I think it will not sound beautiful until I like what I'm doing Idea!  I'm learning a lot from the comments. I will now try my best and experiment and see what I can do. Doug is right when he said I fell back into old habits when I did this take, but it is also natural in the process of learning. It just needs more work. I personally think I played better near the end until about the last four bars. The longer notes with the slide vibrato were the better part. Most of the half notes and the sustained notes needs to be smoother. I think the smaller trombone is a good choice because it is easier to play longer phrases. On the Conn 88h recording I had to cut some phrases because the air, but maybe it was okay to do that anyhow, but with the Kanstul I was only short on air in two places. Once where I had to end a tone a bit to early, and the other where I just had to take a breath and cut the phrase.

If anybody has more comments they are welcome. (Sabutin? Blast? Svenne?) Maybe I do another try in a month or so. I need to practise for awhile.

/Tom
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Visit my page at https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic/

Instruments: King 2b+, Kanstul 1570, Kanstul 1662. m-pieces: Bach 6 3/4, Hammond 12 ML, Hammond 20 BL
Andrew Meronek

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« Reply #8 on: Jan 24, 2017, 03:52PM »

You run out of air faster on the larger horn? That's weird; I find for me that's not the case unless I'm actually playing louder or something.
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