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Author Topic: Our unbalanced POTUS  (Read 50778 times)
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3BF3BF
« Reply #920 on: Mar 30, 2017, 07:09AM »

Several news outlets,

e.g.,
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/george-w.-bush-on-trumps-inauguration-some-weird-st/article/2618830

are reporting about a New York Magazine article where George W. Bush made an interesting comment about Trump's inauguration speech.

Sums it up nicely!

:)
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« Reply #921 on: Mar 30, 2017, 07:20AM »


But that's based on the way the votes are counted, which doesn't rely on having actual electors. There must have been some reason for having them, and even meeting in separate locations, they could have been a bulwark against the riffraff. Your theory doesn't explain the necessity of the electors.

I'll venture that by embodying the votes in actual people it was intended to reduce the possibility of fraud/error in stating the results (if for example, just one bureaucrat had been responsible for recognizing the result and mailing it to Washington).

A bit like how you have two people count the money received at the company every day instead of one.

For me, having the Electors meet in separates states is fatal to the argument the they were intended as a deliberative body.

If they were intended as a deliberative body of wise electors, then why not give them the process for resolving a lack of majority by one candidate? Why pass that off to Congress? They passed it off because Congress really was a deliberative body that met in one spot.
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« Reply #922 on: Mar 30, 2017, 08:12AM »

Remember that when the Constitution was written, travel was a slow process.  Traveling from New Hampshire to Georgia (the limits of the original 13 States) could take months.  That also was the reason the new President took office in March rather than January as we do now.  So having the Electors meet in their respective states minimized travel requirements.

Also remember that we are still 60 years from the Telegraph and hot air balloons are not as controllable as airplanes.  The fastest method of communication is a courier on horseback and 200 miles a day is a rapid rate of transmission.
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« Reply #923 on: Mar 30, 2017, 09:48AM »

  ...So having the Electors meet in their respective states minimized travel requirements.

Which does nothing to improve their ability to be a deliberative body.
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« Reply #924 on: Mar 30, 2017, 10:24AM »

And I'll note that since the President wasn't getting sworn in until March there would have been enough time for the Electors to convene as one body in one place to think adult thoughts... if such thinking had been desired of them.

The more I look at the realities of it, the more I think Hamilton was just doing his lawyer's duty to come up with some argument, any argument, to make separating the people from the choosing of the President a sellable notion.

"It's not a bug... it's a feature!" - Alexander Hamilton
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« Reply #925 on: Mar 30, 2017, 10:39AM »

Remember, the first 6 Presidents knew each other quite well and there was not the antagonism that would show up 50 years later.

Also, there was no universal suffrage (Vermont would enfranchise all men in 1791 and it was the first).
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« Reply #926 on: Mar 30, 2017, 10:53AM »

Remember, the first 6 Presidents knew each other quite well and there was not the antagonism that would show up 50 years later.

Also, there was no universal suffrage (Vermont would enfranchise all men in 1791 and it was the first).
Just because they knew each other does not mean there wasn't antagonism.  Remember that Burr guy?  They ended up actually shooting at each other.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #927 on: Mar 30, 2017, 12:23PM »

Remember, the first 6 Presidents knew each other quite well and there was not the antagonism that would show up 50 years later.

 :/


Adams vs. Jefferson: The Birth of Negative Campaigning in the U.S.


Quote
Things got ugly fast. Jefferson's camp accused President Adams of having a "hideous hermaphroditical character, which has neither the force and firmness of a man, nor the gentleness and sensibility of a woman." In return, Adams' men called Vice President Jefferson "a mean-spirited, low-lived fellow, the son of a half-breed Indian squaw, sired by a Virginia mulatto father." As the slurs piled on, Adams was labeled a fool, a hypocrite, a criminal, and a tyrant, while Jefferson was branded a weakling, an atheist, a libertine, and a coward. Even Martha Washington succumbed to the propaganda, telling a clergyman that Jefferson was "one of the most detestable of mankind."


Adams vs. Jefferson: The Tumultuous Election of 1800


Quote
It was a contest of titans: John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, two heroes of the Revolutionary era, once intimate friends, now icy antagonists locked in a fierce battle for the future of the United States. The election of 1800 was a thunderous clash of a campaign that climaxed in a deadlock in the Electoral College and led to a crisis in which the young republic teetered on the edge of collapse.



John Adams... President, hermaphrodite

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« Reply #928 on: Mar 30, 2017, 12:41PM »

You know the difference between a chickpea and a garbanzo?

Donald Trump never paid to have a garbanzo on him.
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« Reply #929 on: Mar 30, 2017, 05:19PM »

Flynn to flip?

From the WSJ through Reuters:

(Reuters) - President Donald Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, has told the FBI and congressional officials investigating the Trump campaign's potential ties to Russia that he is willing to be interviewed in exchange for immunity from prosecution, the Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday.
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« Reply #930 on: Mar 30, 2017, 05:46PM »

Flynn to flip?

From the WSJ through Reuters:

(Reuters) - President Donald Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, has told the FBI and congressional officials investigating the Trump campaign's potential ties to Russia that he is willing to be interviewed in exchange for immunity from prosecution, the Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday.


From TPM


Quote
Mike Flynn tells the FBI he's willing to talk, but only for immunity. But you only get immunity if you deliver someone else higher up the ladder. And there's only one person higher up the ladder.

So, would that be Steve Bannon or Ivanka?
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« Reply #931 on: Mar 30, 2017, 06:02PM »

Where's DD and the other couple of right-wingers?

Haven't heard from them here for a while.  Are they finally getting it that their horse has rotten teeth, caused mostly by the verbal feces that flows over them in a continuous stream?

I think whatever rationale was underpinning the positions of white, right-wing, working-class conservatives has simply disappeared in the aftermath of Trumpcare's collapse.

Recall that this is the main group of voters that sent the Tea Partiers to Congress in the midterms, leading to the formation of the Freedom Caucus, who got Boehner thrown out because he wouldn't get rid of new government-subsidized medical care programs. This was apparently a matter of great principle for these congressmen and their voters.

Now many of these same voters have become Trump supporters, for no particular reason I can determine. In the aftermath of the Trumpcare debacle, Trump and many of his supporters are mad at the Freedom Caucus for refusing to support new government-subsidized health care programs, which is precisely what the Freedom Caucus has been doing all along, and why this group of voters supposedly supported them.

The conservatives don't post anymore because there's nothing much that can be said. The complete folly, and lack of moral or intellectual principle, of the anti-Obama right has been laid bare. It was always phony and political to begin with, and now that can't be hidden.

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« Reply #932 on: Mar 30, 2017, 06:19PM »

I think whatever rationale was underpinning the positions of white, right-wing, working-class conservatives has simply disappeared in the aftermath of Trumpcare's collapse.
 
Recall that this is the main group of voters that sent the Tea Partiers to Congress in the midterms, leading to the formation of the Freedom Caucus, who got Boehner thrown out because he wouldn't get rid of new government-subsidized medical care programs. This was apparently a matter of great principle for these congressmen and their voters.
 
Now many of these same voters have become Trump supporters, for no particular reason I can determine. In the aftermath of the Trumpcare debacle, Trump and many of his supporters are mad at the Freedom Caucus for refusing to support new government-subsidized health care programs, which is precisely what the Freedom Caucus has been doing all along, and why this group of voters supposedly supported them.
 
The conservatives don't post anymore because there's nothing much that can be said. The complete folly, and lack of moral or intellectual principle, of the anti-Obama right has been laid bare. It was always phony and political to begin with, and now that can't be hidden.

You're not suggesting they actually have the awareness to recognize this sort of thing though, are you?
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« Reply #933 on: Mar 30, 2017, 06:37PM »


You're not suggesting they actually have the awareness to recognize this sort of thing though, are you?

I think it should eventually befuddle the blind followers when they're first told the 'establishment' GOP is terrible because they wouldn't repeal Obamacare, and the Freedom Caucus is the hero for opposing these programs, then they start blindly following Trump and are suddenly told that the Freedom Caucus is bad and disloyal because they're opposing Trumpcare on precisely the same grounds. I actually admire the FC for their consistency, even though I disagree with them. The great majority of GOP congressmen treated opposition to Obamacare and concern over deficits simply as convenient cudgels with which to sabotage the economic recovery and the Obama administration. Apparently the Freedom Caucus guys really meant it. Ryan and Boehner should have explained to them it was all a joke.

There has to be some cognitive dissonance, at some point--they have to ask themselves, Do I actually believe in any sort of policy or principle that stays the same no matter whose ox is being gored and which party is in power? If you look at the hard-and-fast principles that conservatives gave up when they supported Trump, like debt control (which people used to pretend was important), you'd think at some point they'd notice that the whole thing was a political gimmick.

In the end, these voters will put up with any sort of political or economic apostasy against conservatism, as long as the candidate is mean to Mexicans.
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« Reply #934 on: Mar 30, 2017, 06:39PM »

Flynn to flip?

From the WSJ through Reuters:

(Reuters) - President Donald Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, has told the FBI and congressional officials investigating the Trump campaign's potential ties to Russia that he is willing to be interviewed in exchange for immunity from prosecution, the Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday.

If Flynn has somethings of substance to spill on Trump, he better hire a bodyguard and get a food taster.....seriously. I wouldn't put anything past 45 and his minions.
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« Reply #935 on: Mar 30, 2017, 07:51PM »

I think we're getting carried away a little over Flynn's motives. There are all sorts of reasons to seek immunity, especially in an area where the legal lines are complex. Certainly one area of exposure would be any untruths he told to FBI investigators, which would be actionable even if the underlying activities were legal.

Remember when lots of people were sure Hillary was going to jail when some underlings asked for and were granted immunity? This may be different, but I wouldn't assume it means he has the goods on Trump. It could just as easily mean that he's trying to create demand for his own testimony to keep himself out of hot water.
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« Reply #936 on: Mar 30, 2017, 07:53PM »

If Flynn has somethings of substance to spill on Trump, he better hire a bodyguard and get a food taster.....seriously. I wouldn't put anything past 45 and his minions.

Not to mention Putin. He can get a little cranky when you cross him.
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« Reply #937 on: Mar 31, 2017, 05:48AM »

I think it should eventually befuddle the blind followers when they're first told the 'establishment' GOP is terrible because they wouldn't repeal Obamacare, and the Freedom Caucus is the hero for opposing these programs, then they start blindly following Trump and are suddenly told that the Freedom Caucus is bad and disloyal because they're opposing Trumpcare on precisely the same grounds. I actually admire the FC for their consistency, even though I disagree with them. The great majority of GOP congressmen treated opposition to Obamacare and concern over deficits simply as convenient cudgels with which to sabotage the economic recovery and the Obama administration. Apparently the Freedom Caucus guys really meant it. Ryan and Boehner should have explained to them it was all a joke.
 
There has to be some cognitive dissonance, at some point--they have to ask themselves, Do I actually believe in any sort of policy or principle that stays the same no matter whose ox is being gored and which party is in power? If you look at the hard-and-fast principles that conservatives gave up when they supported Trump, like debt control (which people used to pretend was important), you'd think at some point they'd notice that the whole thing was a political gimmick.
 
In the end, these voters will put up with any sort of political or economic apostasy against conservatism, as long as the candidate is mean to Mexicans.

I think you're under-appreciating how experienced and cognitively dexterous these people are with very serious dissonance. I know it's hard to fathom, but that's also pretty much The Definitive characteristic of their collective nature.
 
Again, understanding authoritarian psychology is key to understanding this group. I'm not sure authoritarianism is really a sound explanation of what's going on with them, but it's a model that works quite well for predicting their behavior (or at least not not misjudging it), and if you think there are anywhere remotely near normal limits to the dissonance they can digest without insult then I think you're missing something not just important, but definitive.
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« Reply #938 on: Mar 31, 2017, 06:40AM »


Recall that this is the main group of voters that sent the Tea Partiers to Congress in the midterms, leading to the formation of the Freedom Caucus, who got Boehner thrown out because he wouldn't get rid of new government-subsidized medical care programs. This was apparently a matter of great principle for these congressmen and their voters.

Now many of these same voters have become Trump supporters, for no particular reason I can determine.


You have not been paying attention!  He's pro-life (he said so) and HE'S NOT HILLARY
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« Reply #939 on: Mar 31, 2017, 07:31AM »

... if you think there are anywhere remotely near normal limits to the dissonance they can digest without insult then I think you're missing something not just important, but definitive.

No need to digest items one may not even notice. Confabulation secondary to anosognosia is a hell of a thing.
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