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Author Topic: Richard Smith, still nutty  (Read 5822 times)
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savio

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« Reply #60 on: Feb 27, 2017, 11:48PM »

Yes I think Sam have a good point here. I can't see how this demonstration could help us progress in our daily playing? In the meanwhile I keep blowing out, not in....and let the air go through the horn. :)

Leif
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Dan Hine

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« Reply #61 on: Feb 28, 2017, 12:04AM »




Where is the profit in all of this palaver?

The musical profit.

Just another diversion, seems like to me.

If you don't, you fill your life with all sorts of other relatively empty pursuits.



What if the goal is for the science profit and not the musical profit?  Science is the vocation and playing the trombone is the avocation.

All this would be a diversion to you as it keeps you from what is important...to you.

And then there are others who would wonder why you spend so much time practicing.  Seems like a huge diversion from a more worthy pursuit.

Try everything and use what works, right?  Being a professional musician works for you.  It doesn't for everyone. 
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MoominDave

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« Reply #62 on: Feb 28, 2017, 02:50AM »

Well said, Dan
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« Reply #63 on: Feb 28, 2017, 03:05AM »

 :) Well I had som fun! The point? Obviously to show that the airflow has to pass the lipp-aperture to start the vibrations. The vibrations set up the standing vawe in the horn. You do not fill the horn with air to create a tone, you fill it with vibrations. The horn was a little hard to play both with plastic bag and more so with the R S mouthpiece (I did not use a condom to block the air from going in to the horn, but plastic that you wrap food in may it is easier with a condom?)
Can it make som a better player? Well, that was not the point, many subjects and discousions on TTF does not make anybody a better player, but may be intersing for some. It is so nice with things that you donīt find interseting, you can just ignore it. Hi

Nevertheless, I do certainly think it can make sombody to re-think the purpose of the airflow, and to relize it is not forzed air to fill the horn, but air flow to make the lips buzz, yes I think that can helps someone to a better player.

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« Reply #64 on: Feb 28, 2017, 05:14AM »



Nevertheless, I do certainly think it can make sombody to re-think the purpose of the airflow, and to relize it is not forzed air to fill the horn, but air flow to make the lips buzz, yes I think that can helps someone to a better player.



Also, the answer to playing better does not always have to be "move more air."  If we understand that the air makes the lips buzz, we might figure out how to make them buzz freely with less air, and that could be a good thing. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #65 on: Feb 28, 2017, 05:34AM »

Also, the answer to playing better does not always have to be "move more air."  If we understand that the air makes the lips buzz, we might figure out how to make them buzz freely with less air, and that could be a good thing. 

Tim,

I think this is the most important point I'm taking away from all this.

I had wondered earlier about the possibility that a major function of the acoustical system in a brasswind was assistance in just dumping air.  Sven's video leads me to think so.  Dudley's post supports that.

It would be interesting (to me) to hear if ANY note comes out sounding almost the same with the RS mouthpiece as with a regular one.  I suspect it would be JUST one note.  The hole in the RS mouthpiece is NOT just a hole.  As Sam says, that is just a leak and sounds crappy if at all.  The hole is the start of a tuned port.  It didn't look to me like any calculation was done to tune that port, but empirical lengthening until sound could be supported. 

My logical extension of that tuned port idea is that the mouthpiece/venture/pipe-closed-at-one-end-resonator provides an acoustical reactance that allow just the right amount of air to be dumped for any frequency, rather than just the one of a single tuned port.

Corollary to that is that if I try to put MORE air through than the system is tuned for, bad things will happen.

So, aside from satisfying scientific curiosity, this does have daily practice implications for ME.  No big changes, but I do spend a little more time focused right at the chops, experimenting with different volumes and pitches, listening and feeling carefully (again, right at the chops) for the combinations that feel best, produce the best sound, appropriate volume, and use just the right amount of air.  I don't just play the long tones, but really, really pay attention to how my chops are reacting to the whole system.  And my focus remains right at the chops, not on a back wall somewhere.  This nutty experiment confirms (for me) that if I get it right at the chops, the rest will take care of itself.
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« Reply #66 on: Feb 28, 2017, 05:54AM »

For what it's worth, indeed.

I ask again, Matthew...so what???

The air most certainly has to go through the aperture, right? And as any  serious brass player knows, a fairly good air seal is necessary at the intersection of rim and lips to produce a good sound and good playing characteristics. Drill a hole somewhere in the shank of the mouthpiece and what happens? I'll tell you what happens because I at one time had a m'pce w/a mic hole drilled into it. Take the mic out of the hole and what do you get?

Bupkis is what you get.

So where's the beef?

Where's the meat?

Where is the profit in all of this palaver?

The musical profit.

Really!!!

Just another diversion, seems like to me.

I once had a teacher (Not of music but of ...other things...) who used to say to us, "You either do it or you don't."

If you don't, you fill your life with all sorts of other relatively empty pursuits.

But if you do "do it?"

Then there is nothing else to say.

S.
Sam, consider the following... Understanding turbulent airflow does nothing to make you a better driver.  It does, however, help somebody engineer a better intake manifold that allows you to be a better driver.  Knowing about how mist forms from a pressurized opening does nothing to make you enjoy a sunday drive.  It does, however, help somebody engineer a better fuel injector to make that drive smoother and last longer for the same amount of fuel.  They aren't empty because you cannot find the purpose there.  They aren't even empty to your stated goal.  They just aren't for you.

If this helps somebody think of a better way to understand what is really happening physically in the horn... great.  Maybe they can use that to make a better mousetrap for us so that folks like you can go to new musical heights.  Kinda hard to ask where the fruit is when all that has been presented is a way to plow a field.  It might take a lot more work to figure out how to get fruit out of it.  Heck, there might not ever come any fruit from it, but it takes a lot of bad ideas to get a good one.

Cheers,
Andy
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Andrew Elms
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« Reply #67 on: Feb 28, 2017, 11:38AM »

For what it's worth, indeed.

I ask again, Matthew...so what???

The air most certainly has to go through the aperture, right? And as any  serious brass player knows, a fairly good air seal is necessary at the intersection of rim and lips to produce a good sound and good playing characteristics. Drill a hole somewhere in the shank of the mouthpiece and what happens? I'll tell you what happens because I at one time had a m'pce w/a mic hole drilled into it. Take the mic out of the hole and what do you get?

Bupkis is what you get.

So where's the beef?

Where's the meat?

Where is the profit in all of this palaver?

The musical profit.

Really!!!

Just another diversion, seems like to me.

I once had a teacher (Not of music but of ...other things...) who used to say to us, "You either do it or you don't."

If you don't, you fill your life with all sorts of other relatively empty pursuits.

But if you do "do it?"

Then there is nothing else to say.

S.
You heard the king, folks. All science that doesn't 100% directly relate to how Sam plays the trombone shall henceforth be referred to as "fake news". Now everybody log off and go practice.
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MrPillow
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« Reply #68 on: Feb 28, 2017, 11:43AM »

I've wasted my life  :cry:
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savio

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« Reply #69 on: Feb 28, 2017, 12:54PM »

But dear trombonists (and scientists), there is nothing new here. Even our tipp tipp tipp tipp tipp ....grandfather in the stone age knew the air going through the lips make the sound. The sound depends how we form the lips and how we use the air. Is there really anything new here? There is nothing....that is useful. We still have to use the air, lips, tongue, our body to make the horn sound the way we want. And I bet this will not change the way to play, or change the horn for the next thousands of years. Or the genious simple prinsipp our horn is....like I told there isn't anything new here....it was exactly the same prinsipp our tipp tipp......used.  :)

Leif

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« Reply #70 on: Feb 28, 2017, 12:57PM »

The sound depends how we form the lips and how we use the air.



If that's all the sound depends on then may I send you my address so you can ship me all those nice vintage Conns you have?  Your Mt. Vernon mouthpiece, too.   Good!
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Dan Hine

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« Reply #71 on: Feb 28, 2017, 01:03PM »

Discoveries lead to more discoveries.  We may go through dozens or hundreds that don't mean anything by themselves.  But the journey may lead to a discovery that makes a huge difference.  Decrying any gain in knowledge is a shame regardless of whether or not it really affects you or me.
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« Reply #72 on: Mar 01, 2017, 02:24AM »

Quote
It didn't look to me like any calculation was done to tune that port, but empirical lengthening until sound could be supported.


Right. The RS mpc I made is very much done by chanse. I am sure that if you spend more time and made much more misstakes before publishing the result I could make the thing to work much better.

I do wunder if it would be worth it though, what the experiment did show is that the airstream does not have to entry the horn to make a sound, even with this crappy setup.

The wibrating part more then the lips in the mpc is some plastic film made to wrap food in.
That is what make the vibrations going into the horn. Of course the plastic film is not the optimal embouchure you can think of.

I hade literally hundreds of student who was thinking of the blow must fill the horn with air, sometimes it was really difficult to get them to understand that if the vibrations in the lips was right, the rest will take care of it self. The blow is just to set the lips in vibration. In the mouthpiece when connectied to the horn. I you could lead the airstream out of the horn with a more sophisticated way then whatr I did you would most likely get a good tone out of the instrument.

Is this old news? Well maybe for some of you who use you brain i a sientific way, But I insure you that when I did this experiment infront of classes with musicstudent in 16-18 years of age they all got very suprised since they though that the airstream going through the horn was what make the sound.
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« Reply #73 on: Mar 01, 2017, 04:07AM »

You heard the king, folks. All science that doesn't 100% directly relate to how Sam plays the trombone shall henceforth be referred to as "fake news". Now everybody log off and go practice.

And all brass playing-related "science" that doesn't 100% relate to playing the horn well will heretofore be referred to as "Blowero science."

Go blow it out your...awwww, you know!!!

S.
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« Reply #74 on: Mar 01, 2017, 04:54AM »

Sometimes I do love the TTF!  :D
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« Reply #75 on: Mar 01, 2017, 04:57AM »



Is this old news? Well maybe for some of you who use you brain i a sientific way, But I insure you that when I did this experiment infront of classes with musicstudent in 16-18 years of age they all got very suprised since they though that the airstream going through the horn was what make the sound.

Did you ever succeed in convincing one of them that it was not actually the brass that vibrates and produces the sound, but the air column?   :D
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #76 on: Mar 01, 2017, 06:27AM »

Did you ever succeed in convincing one of them that it was not actually the brass that vibrates and produces the sound, but the air column?   :D

Will anyone ever succeed in convincing you that the vibrations produced by the brass DO matter to the player?
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« Reply #77 on: Mar 01, 2017, 09:04AM »

Will anyone ever succeed in convincing you that the vibrations produced by the brass DO matter to the player?

Interestingly enough, Richard Smith is helpful on this aspct as well.  If you search for his 1988 ITG article "It's All In The Bore" you'll find not only article, but lots of subsequent research around the globe citing the article.  In a nutshell, the concensus seems to be that the shape determines trombonishness, but that the surrounding materials DO affect the specific colors within that trombonishness.
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« Reply #78 on: Mar 01, 2017, 10:16AM »

  In a nutshell, the concensus seems to be that the shape determines trombonishness, but that the surrounding materials DO affect the specific colors within that trombonishness.

There's a distinction I make here that Euph does not.

The word you used is affect (verb).  I admit the possibility that there is an effect (noun).  In fact it is probable there is an effect, I just think it is small enough that in well run tests in most acoustic environments it is likely below the limits of detection for most people.  That means that the very large effects that people notice are probably due to something else.  That something else gets ignored but it's important. 

The word he used though is produced, and that's not unique to him.  A very large number of players think the brass produces vibrations and adds them to the tone.  It can't.  It can only subtract. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #79 on: Mar 01, 2017, 11:02AM »

But dear trombonists (and scientists), there is nothing new here. Even our tipp tipp tipp tipp tipp ....grandfather in the stone age knew the air going through the lips make the sound. The sound depends how we form the lips and how we use the air. Is there really anything new here? There is nothing....that is useful. We still have to use the air, lips, tongue, our body to make the horn sound the way we want. And I bet this will not change the way to play, or change the horn for the next thousands of years. Or the genious simple prinsipp our horn is....like I told there isn't anything new here....it was exactly the same prinsipp our tipp tipp......used.  :)

Leif



Leif,
If none of this is new (and, since the research was done in 1999, it isn't really new either) then why have teachers like Sven and Dudley Bright had to deal with students who tried to solve their problems with the "Put More Air Through" (PMAT) approach?
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Dave Adams
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