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Author Topic: Richard Smith, still nutty  (Read 5502 times)
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savio

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« Reply #80 on: Mar 01, 2017, 11:54AM »

Dave, there is and was some bad teachers which had one solution to almost every trombone related problem; "blow more air, use more air"

About blowing air through the trombone; nothing wrong with that, that's how it feels for me. Just have to use the air in a way we get the sound we want. Like a guitar player hit the string with a finger to get the sound, we use air, lips, tongue, mouth in a special combination to get the desired sound. So it is and has always been.....isn't it?

This tread is starting to be fun...hehe

Leif
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timothy42b
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« Reply #81 on: Mar 01, 2017, 12:20PM »

Dave, there is and was some bad teachers which had one solution to almost every trombone related problem; "blow more air, use more air"


Leif

Or maybe it's not so much bad teaching, but that some players just are in the habit of thinking air, while others might think chops. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #82 on: Mar 01, 2017, 12:35PM »

Or maybe it's not so much bad teaching, but that some players just are in the habit of thinking air, while others might think chops. 

Yes some focus only on one thing. But it is a combination of many aspects. Air, tongue, lips, throat, vowels ...etc  slide, arm, ....it sounds simple but everything has to be right to get the result. Right amount of air, right amount of tension or use of muscles im the right places. Then the understanding of music...the mental part...

Some think air can solve everything but everything has to work together in harmony. So as Sam tell, work and practice. Try to understand and have a goal.

Leif
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boneagain
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« Reply #83 on: Mar 01, 2017, 12:53PM »

Yes some focus only on one thing. But it is a combination of many aspects. Air, tongue, lips, throat, vowels ...etc  slide, arm, ....it sounds simple but everything has to be right to get the result. Right amount of air, right amount of tension or use of muscles im the right places. Then the understanding of music...the mental part...

Some think air can solve everything but everything has to work together in harmony. So as Sam tell, work and practice. Try to understand and have a goal.

Leif

As a teacher you are in a unique position to think about appropriate metaphors.  Since all students learn in different ways (well all the students I ever met or heard of) it should be helpful to have metaphors that work for each student. 

Some teachers really don't know any better than to follow PMAT.  Some feel PMAT is useful as a step in a Wittgenstein Ladder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittgenstein's_ladder.)  I think this experiment shows that PMAT is NOT a step that should be in anyones learning ladder.

More useful metaphors?  strings, bows, and fingerboards, among others.  The lips are the strings, the air and tongue are the bow, and the embouchure along with slide positions are the fingerboards.  Simplifying assumptions that are not inherently just plain false.

The ideas are certainly not new, but having a concrete demonstration of just how false PMAT is IS new.  And being able to categorically toss out a false metaphor eliminates that as a distraction from teaching/learning/playing, so we can focus where things WILL make a difference.

Does that make sense?
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Dave Adams
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savio

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« Reply #84 on: Mar 01, 2017, 01:55PM »

You all make sense Dave  Good!
I think it was fun discussing a little but this soon getting to complicated for my simple brain  :D

Im just a teacher for small kids and are used to explain with simple words. And I try to progress my self to play better but know I will never be a super trombonists. For me the journey to get better is the fun, even if my progress isn't exactly the best. I still have fun with the small steps I make.

Playing trombone or learning to play can be explained with simple words but with so many factors involved its still a complex task that need both time, brain and work to achieve results. For me in my position its the small steps, both forward and back, that makes the hole fun.

Keep on the discussion dear trombonists, Im afraid I dont understand everything here...not first time  :D  ;-)

Leif
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Euphanasia

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« Reply #85 on: Mar 01, 2017, 03:06PM »

There's a distinction I make here that Euph does not.

...

The word he used though is produced, and that's not unique to him.  A very large number of players think the brass produces vibrations and adds them to the tone.  It can't.  It can only subtract. 

Read it again, Tim. I said nothing about vibrations producing changes that affect the tone. I merely said that the vibrations produced by the brass matter to the player. How a horn vibrates, regardless of whether that vibration affects the sound, makes a difference to me as a player. Are you saying that the horn doesn't produce vibrations?
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Blowero

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« Reply #86 on: Mar 01, 2017, 06:50PM »

And all brass playing-related "science" that doesn't 100% relate to playing the horn well will heretofore be referred to as "Blowero science."

Go blow it out your...awwww, you know!!!

S.

And all self-important, egotistical, pompous jerks will be known as Sam Burtis. Pant
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Dan Hine

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« Reply #87 on: Mar 01, 2017, 07:11PM »

Well, at least everyone has remained civil.  :/
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« Reply #88 on: Mar 01, 2017, 07:17PM »

Let's please keep it between the lines. Maligning members (Burtis/Blowero) isn't cool. Definitely breaking ToU.

Tit for tat. You've both thrown your jabs. Party over.

Just sayin'
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« Reply #89 on: Mar 01, 2017, 07:51PM »

Sorry you folks don't like it, but if some lout tells me " blow it out your ...", he's gonna hear back from me.
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MrPillow
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« Reply #90 on: Mar 01, 2017, 07:52PM »

Could one play the trombone by blowing it out their....?
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« Reply #91 on: Mar 01, 2017, 07:54PM »

Sorry you folks don't like it, but if some lout tells me " blow it out your ...", he's gonna hear back from me.

I get it. But as a mod, I am asking that it stop. Thanks
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« Reply #92 on: Mar 01, 2017, 07:56PM »

Read it again, Tim. I said nothing about vibrations producing changes that affect the tone. I merely said that the vibrations produced by the brass matter to the player. How a horn vibrates, regardless of whether that vibration affects the sound, makes a difference to me as a player. Are you saying that the horn doesn't produce vibrations?

In the truest, most pure sense, no the brass does not produce vibrations.  Only an energy source can produce vibrations.  The brass can transmit them and reflect them back to the player, but it does not produce them.  Mostly useless semantics, but it is a significant difference in terminology when discussing the relatively minor effect of material differences.

Cheers,
Andy
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Andrew Elms
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« Reply #93 on: Mar 01, 2017, 08:15PM »

Theoretically, couldn't the brass produce new content through sympathetic vibrations unpresent in the original input signal? Or is that considered transmission.
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« Reply #94 on: Mar 01, 2017, 08:17PM »

I get it. But as a mod, I am asking that it stop. Thanks

Done. I won't post again in this thread.
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« Reply #95 on: Mar 01, 2017, 08:25PM »

In the truest, most pure sense, no the brass does not produce vibrations.  Only an energy source can produce vibrations.  The brass can transmit them and reflect them back to the player, but it does not produce them.  Mostly useless semantics, but it is a significant difference in terminology when discussing the relatively minor effect of material differences.


In the truest, most pure sense, yes!! the brass DOES!! produce vibrations. Why is it so hard for people in engineering-related fields to see that words can be used in a non-engineering context by those outside of the field and still be accurate? The brass makes your hands vibrate. Without the brass, your hand wouldn't vibrate. The brass produces vibrations in the player's hands.

Do you feel the horn vibrating when you play? Do your hands vibrate in the same way if you place a speaker in front of you and play back a recording of your playing, or even in if the speaker is behind you? The brass is producing vibrations. They may be secondary, but they still exist.

Tim and I disagree on how the sound is transmitted, but surely all three of us can agree that the vibrations that are felt in the hand are transmitted by the vibration of the horn, right? Which is why a P-bone might sound OK, but gives an unacceptable level of feedback to the player. It produces less vibration in the hands than a brass trombone.

I can't answer to whether changing material changes the sound, but my unscientific, subjective, experiential perspective is that changing the materials in a horn produces predictable trends in how that horn vibrates in my hand, and I prefer how some horns and some materials vibrate to how other horns vibrate.

Are all fora haunted by people who put such a fine point on semantics?

The Hi Fi Forum: "My new speakers produce a fantastic sound!" "No, the electricity flowing through them produces the sound."
The Espresso Forum: "The espresso coming out of the La Pavoni burned my finger." "No, it was the heat energy in the espresso that burned your finger."
The Baking Forum: "Fleischmann's yeast doesn't seem to make the dough rise as fast as Red Star." "No, the exhaled CO2 coming from the yeast cultures in the dough made with Fleischmann's yeast results in a lower coefficient of expansion than the C02 coming from the yeast cultures in the dough made with Red Star."

Not "mostly" useless semantics. "Purely" useless semantics.
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #96 on: Mar 01, 2017, 09:05PM »

Theoretically, couldn't the brass produce new content through sympathetic vibrations unpresent in the original input signal? Or is that considered transmission.
I think so.  But I have absolutely nothing to back it up.
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« Reply #97 on: Mar 02, 2017, 02:05AM »

Quote
grandfather in the stone age knew the air going through the lips make the sound. The sound depends how we form the lips and how we use the air. Is there really anything new here? There is nothing....that is useful. We still have to use the air, lips, tongue, our body to make the horn sound the way we want. And I bet this will not change the way to play, or change the horn for the next thousands of years.

Well, the experiment did not prove that the horn feature was important, actually the opposite.
The transmiting of the vibrations to the horn in my show was done through the vibrating plastic film, nevertheless, the horn reacted with the bore profile and did set up a standing vawe (sorry Tim) so that there was a clear series of partials. As a matter of fact the horns boreprofile is extremely important. There have been brass instruments around for thusends of years, trombones from around 1450, the bore-profile has chansed many times, today we play different trombones like small, medium, medium-large, large and bass trombone (not coutning contrabass or alto) and sackbut that has a completely different bore-profile. No the old time trombonists did think that the lips made the sond, we dont think so today either. The lips and the horn makes the sound, the horn is as important as the lips.

For many years I told my students to blow through the horn. In my experience it is much more revarding to say blow the lips, let the sound fill the room.

You do the teaching, in anyway you want, I hade some fun, and yes some of the reactions made me have some more fun!  :)
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« Reply #98 on: Mar 02, 2017, 05:42AM »

Theoretically, couldn't the brass produce new content through sympathetic vibrations unpresent in the original input signal? Or is that considered transmission.
It will filter reduce and transmit.  They will sound different.  Still playing in semantics, they are a version of what is in the horn.  Returning more to the topic, I generally feel that these are closely coupled systems and the inputs are not completely independent of the output.

To respond to euph, yes... it feels different and sounds different behind the bell.  I believe that it may be possible to measure differences on the other side of the bell, but that is a tall task for repeatability.

Quote from: Euph
The Hi Fi Forum: "My new speakers produce a fantastic sound!" "No, the electricity flowing through them produces the sound."
The Espresso Forum: "The espresso coming out of the La Pavoni burned my finger." "No, it was the heat energy in the espresso that burned your finger."
The Baking Forum: "Fleischmann's yeast doesn't seem to make the dough rise as fast as Red Star." "No, the exhaled CO2 coming from the yeast cultures in the dough made with Fleischmann's yeast results in a lower coefficient of expansion than the C02 coming from the yeast cultures in the dough made with Red Star.
Come on, man...  These are all items with direct causal relationships.  Hot water contains the energy.  Brass contains no energy.  Speakers.. I have no problem with saying a person playing a trombone produces a sound... but when you try to assign causal relationships to components is where you get yourself into some corners.  Semantics are often useless, but when you are trying to go through causal relationships, getting to details matters.  My engine makes my car go, but if you take that engine and put it on a bike with no gas tank, it won't make the bike go.

Cheers,
Andy
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Andrew Elms
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« Reply #99 on: Mar 02, 2017, 06:18AM »

To respond to euph, yes... it feels different and sounds different behind the bell. 

And that was 99% of my point. Tim focuses on sound, and his belief that materials don't affect sound implies that materials "don't matter." My point is that regardless of whether they affect sound, they matter to the player.

I have no problem with saying a person playing a trombone produces a sound... but when you try to assign causal relationships to components is where you get yourself into some corners.  Semantics are often useless, but when you are trying to go through causal relationships, getting to details matters.  My engine makes my car go, but if you take that engine and put it on a bike with no gas tank, it won't make the bike go.


??? I'm not sure what you mean about putting a car engine on a bike, but car propulsion is one of the best analogies for the point I'm making here. I drive a Chevy Volt. If you're looking at causal relationships, the generator is what makes my car go, by providing energy to a traction motor. An engineer might say that it doesn't matter whether the  generator is powered by the DC battery or by the car's internal combustion engine, since both are producing electricity which drives the wheels. However, I can think of six or seven reasons why I prefer to have the DC battery powering the traction motor, and a lot of that has to do with how the car "vibrates." Semantics and meta-language won't get to a greater truth here than "to me, it's more enjoyable to drive when it's powered by the DC battery."
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