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Author Topic: Slide on the floor. How bad is it.  (Read 1753 times)
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Whitbey
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« on: Feb 10, 2017, 06:39AM »

So you need to set your horn down on the floor or a table. The correct way is that upside down 3 point tuneslide, bell and mouthpiece touch the floor with the slide pointing up at an angle.

But I have watched so many horns set on the flat slide so that the slide could be sprung. It is one thing to see that at the local concert band but I see so many pro groups like Mnozil Brass do this.

And over the years I have been amazed that there slides are just fine. Seems like the number of hits and how gentle the horn is cared for matter more.

So is it really that bad to set your horn down?   
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« Reply #1 on: Feb 10, 2017, 06:45AM »

So you need to set your horn down on the floor or a table. The correct way is that upside down 3 point tuneslide, bell and mouthpiece touch the floor with the slide pointing up at an angle.

But I have watched so many horns set on the flat slide so that the slide could be sprung. It is one thing to see that at the local concert band but I see so many pro groups like Mnozil Brass do this.

And over the years I have been amazed that there slides are just fine. Seems like the number of hits and how gentle the horn is cared for matter more.

So is it really that bad to set your horn down?   

Do you feel lucky?

...Geezer
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robcat2075

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« Reply #2 on: Feb 10, 2017, 06:57AM »

I suppose, technically, brass doesn't bend simply because you put force on it. If it did, then every 1000 year old  brass ornament would be a flat puddle by now from the force of gravity.

It bends only after you put a force on it that exceeds a certain threshold and perhaps the flat-on-the-floor position doesn't exceed that threshold.
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #3 on: Feb 10, 2017, 07:02AM »

I suppose, technically, brass doesn't bend simply because you put force on it. If it did, then every 1000 year old  brass ornament would be a flat puddle by now from the force of gravity.

It bends only after you put a force on it that exceeds a certain threshold and perhaps the flat-on-the-floor position doesn't exceed that threshold.

That may be right, but I will guarantee that someone's foot will.

So may question remains to the OP. Do you feel lucky?

...Geezer
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Whitbey
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« Reply #4 on: Feb 10, 2017, 07:08AM »

After 40 years I am wondering why so many are lucky.

And lets go with a kitchen table to take out the stepped on concern.
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« Reply #5 on: Feb 10, 2017, 07:14AM »

Yehaww!  Mechanics of deformable solids time.  Sure, if you do not exceed the region of elasticity, any bend will not be permanent... kinda.  Not all forces, even of the same value are the same.  How fast does the force happen?  How long does it stay there?  From personal experience, you can set a slide tube sitting supported on two ends in your garage.  Leave it there for a few days, fine.  Forget about them and have them up there for a couple of years and they are bananas.

So, will it hurt anything to set it down and turn a page? Probably not.  Do I do it? Nope.  Do I set my horn down on three points like you mention? Rarely.  I've had a horn stepped on while I was turning a page.  Now generally use a stand or just carry the darned thing.  Sometimes I even put it back in the case if there is enough time.

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Andy
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Andrew Elms
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« Reply #6 on: Feb 10, 2017, 07:48AM »

I thought this was going to be about resting the horn on the main slide bow.  But either way, I agree that the likelihood of damage from each individual setting is small

BUT

the actions both put the horn one step closer to a situation where they can suffer sudden traumatic damage or chronic degradation.  Slide bow on floor is one of my pet peeves.  I've seen SO many nice horns with the bumper and reinforcement jammed in far enough to affect intonation and response, yet the player doesn't seem to notice that the slide action has gone to pot and the plating is wearing through.  OTOH I've seen folks older than me with horns they got in the 1950's that they ALWAYS rest on the floor, and the slide is still perfect. 

Paraphrasing from Peter Pan:

Slide on floor is awfuller
Than all the awful things that ever were.
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« Reply #7 on: Feb 10, 2017, 08:10AM »

Any reason not to spend a few bucks on a trombone stand to keep your investment out of the way and safe?
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« Reply #8 on: Feb 10, 2017, 09:32AM »

Any reason not to spend a few bucks on a trombone stand to keep your investment out of the way and safe?

I'm constantly amazed at how many high school & college students have very expensive (even some boutique) horns their parents shelled out serious $$ for, but didn't spend the $30 for a stand. The horn salespeople should just include one in each sale and jack the price accordingly, I guess.
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« Reply #9 on: Feb 10, 2017, 11:03AM »

Slide bow on floor is one of my pet peeves.  I've seen SO many nice horns with the bumper and reinforcement jammed in far enough to affect intonation and response, yet the player doesn't seem to notice that the slide action has gone to pot and the plating is wearing through. 

We had a demonstration by a tech at JMU a couple weeks ago where he disassembled a trombone piece by piece with a torch, and explained how repairs were done to various parts.

I had not realized why repairs to the slide bow are so expensive.  (never having had any done) 

He explained the process.  He has to unsolder the slide bow to remove the dent.  Then he has to solder it back on to the outer slide tubes.  But that changes the alignment, so he has to disassemble and resolder the upper end, hand brace end, of the outer slide, getting the tubes exactly an even distance, parallel, and aligned.  The distance of the bow end of the outer slide is fixed, so the adjustments have to be done at the hand brace end.    Then the inner slide must be unsoldered and resoldered to exactly match the alignment of the oter slide.  That's three separate operations, all needing to be done with skill and precision.  By comparison a dent in the outer slide is easy. 

Basically to fix a dent in the slide bow, you end up fabricating an inner and outer slide from scratch, but not with clean new parts, but old ones carefully disassembled and cleaned.  That's a lot of shop time. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #10 on: Feb 10, 2017, 11:22AM »

I suppose, technically, brass doesn't bend simply because you put force on it.

What I should have said is... brass doesn't bend and stay bent simply because you put force on it.

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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #11 on: Feb 10, 2017, 12:06PM »

What I should have said is... brass doesn't bend and stay bent simply because you put force on it.


I think we all knew what you were getting at.  I will note that the slide tubes in my garage are bent simply by their own weight.  They are raw tubes that are sitting on top of a laundry basket.  It is a small basket, so it is about 24" at the opening.  They are sitting on top and they are about 26-27" or so in length.  They have been there since about 2005 or so.  They are bent more than 1x diameter from end to end just from sitting on top of that basket.  Lesson: store them supported in a structure for extended periods.

Cheers,
Andy
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Andrew Elms
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« Reply #12 on: Feb 10, 2017, 12:12PM »

OP here.
Not asking about stands.
Not asking about people that step on horns or knock horns on stands over.

Just wondering about setting a horn down on a table, counter, or floor flat. For example putting a tenor on the floor between you legs while you play an alto. An hour not a month. Or when you see players like Mnozil Brass do this and still play like nothing could ever be wrong.

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BGuttman
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« Reply #13 on: Feb 10, 2017, 12:22PM »

If you put it down gently enough, you probably won't do any harm.  After all, we don't use a trombone stand while giving the horn a bath, do we?

Is it safe?  Probably not.  Easy to knock or step on.  So I wouldn't do it for an extended period, nor if I was going on break and leaving it onstage (unless I could cover it with a cage of chairs).
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« Reply #14 on: Feb 10, 2017, 12:51PM »

Ever since I saw Alessi do it, I've been using the 3 point set down if I don't have a stand.

Before that we all laid the slide flat, and I don't ever remember any damage from it.  But the spit valve probably does put some torque on the slide. 

It's interesting how fashions change.  Until recently I'd never seen anybody use the 3 pointer, and now it's common.  Until very recently I'd never seen anyone insert the mouthpiece before assembling the slide to the bell, and now that seems to be spreading.  Any insight into that mouthpiece thing? 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #15 on: Feb 10, 2017, 01:13PM »

...I'd never seen anyone insert the mouthpiece before assembling the slide to the bell, and now that seems to be spreading.  Any insight into that mouthpiece thing? 

It can be logical.  If you are going to assemble the instrument you may take the mouthpiece out of the case or bag first, then the slide, and finally the bell.  If you already have the mouthpiece and slide, putting them together before extracting the bell means you have one less thing to hold.  Is it better?  Darned if I know Don't know
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« Reply #16 on: Feb 10, 2017, 02:37PM »

I think most people would be surprised how much force it takes to bend a slide tube, especially when it is part of an outer slide assembly. I don't think the weight of the trombone is going to affect the straightness of the tubes very much if resting on the floor.
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« Reply #17 on: Feb 10, 2017, 03:29PM »

It can be logical.  If you are going to assemble the instrument you may take the mouthpiece out of the case or bag first, then the slide, and finally the bell.  If you already have the mouthpiece and slide, putting them together before extracting the bell means you have one less thing to hold.  Is it better?  Darned if I know Don't know

It is logical.  But in a lot of years of trombone playing, it never occurred to me to try it that way until I saw it done.

And now i see it done frequently.
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« Reply #18 on: Feb 10, 2017, 03:36PM »

you guys are all worrying about bending tubes.

Alignment is more of an issue. Look at where the points of contact are. Cork barrels and outer slide bow.

If you don't think that can cause alignment issues, I'm not sure you're as picky about your slides as I am.
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« Reply #19 on: Feb 10, 2017, 03:37PM »

Doug Elliot has spoken out about this before, I'll note (in regard to resting the slide crook on the floor). It just doesn't put enough pressure on it to really do damage unless you're slamming it down or leaning on your horn.

FWIW, every top level pro I've seen live in the last few years does this, sometimes for entire orchestra concerts.
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« Reply #20 on: Feb 11, 2017, 08:10AM »

I'm going to disagree.  Many crooks are soft, many are thin, some are both.  Almost all the slides I see are wider at the crook be it because of the floor, music stands, the back of a clarinet players head...

Minor impacts can caus small changes over time.  Also the weight of horns varies greatly...but unless you consider your instrument disposable, it's not a good idea.
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« Reply #21 on: Feb 11, 2017, 02:47PM »

Re: laying a horn down flat (NOT crooks or stands):

Speaking as a layman-- I know the slide-on-the-floor setup is "wrong," but I do it anyway, because the three-point horn-on-the-floor setup makes me cringe.

(1) Slide sticking way up in the air, just like when you stick your leg out to intentionally trip someone? Like nobody's going to trip over that? I have this vision of a mangled slide and a broken hip every time I see it. *shudder* 
In my head, slide-on-the-floor will be less of a horrorshow for both the tripper and the trombone if someone DOES accidentally step on it.
And it seems less likely that someone will accidentally walk into the slide, if the slide isn't waving around a foot above the floor.
(I don't know if that's actually how it would work. I welcome compelling evidence to the contrary.)

(1a) I have some slide tenons that aren't super tight. I see the three-point setup relying on a certain stability of that joint. I see my tenon giving way and slamming my slide onto the ground. (Hasn't happened. This is just the horrorshow in my head.)

(2) Mouthpiece on the floor? And I'm gonna put that on my face? No thank you.


Caveat:
I won't even consider laying my horn on the floor unless there's a nice soft carpet beneath it, and nobody but me is around to trip on it. And it only ever stays on the floor for a maximum of 20 minutes (if I'm in the middle of practicing and the phone rings).


Another thought:
I have doubts that 20 minutes of a horn gently sitting in any stable position is enough to damage it, in and of itself. This sounds like the old "when you put your trombone on a stand, gravity + the weight of your trombone are actually damaging your bell" thing. I believe human klutziness is a far worse and more immediate threat to my horn.
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« Reply #22 on: Mar 03, 2017, 03:38PM »

As I see it, the Mnozil Brass Player have two distinct advantages over the common man:

1)   They are acting as "Beta" users of the new Schagerl Brass instruments that they helped to engineer.  They can always obtain a fresh horn, while their recently injured one gets processed by the instrumental Coroner.
[Well, not Wilfried Brandstötter]


2)   They can provide verbose provenance to accompany their damaged instruments to the Auction House and can possibly obtain a higher sum of money for them than Schagerl would have originally asked for each horn.


"This slide was slightly crushed between the big toe and the second toe of Leonard Paul's right foot when he performed 'Lonely Boy' at  Lawrence University in Appleton, WI on the date of Mar 29, 2017."

"I have film."


Think about the possible resale value of all those wooden soprano recorders they toss over their shoulders !  Being careless is an integral part of their Slap-Stick filled performances.

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« Reply #23 on: Mar 17, 2017, 09:38AM »

Oops, that is spelled Leonhard Paul, not Leonard Paul!
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« Reply #24 on: Mar 17, 2017, 10:44AM »

FWIW, every top level pro I've seen live in the last few years does this, sometimes for entire orchestra concerts.

Nice work if you can get it.

 :D
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« Reply #25 on: Mar 18, 2017, 10:13AM »

When I have an alto and a tenor, one has to be someplace when I play the other. MP on the floor is dirty. My preference is under my chair between my legs. Setting the horn down in a protected place is better then sticking up as a trip opportunity. 
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« Reply #26 on: Mar 18, 2017, 10:25AM »

Lol if you have two instruments use a stand.
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