Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1063639 Posts in 70741 Topics- by 18560 Members - Latest Member: Karen h
Jump to:  
The Trombone ForumCreation and PerformancePerformance(Moderator: BGuttman) Why not the small bore for "legit" or classical style playing?
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [All]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Why not the small bore for "legit" or classical style playing?  (Read 4706 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
DaCapo

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 23, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« on: Feb 14, 2017, 03:03PM »

 Hi why has it become so normal and basically standard for players on the collegiate and (for the most part) professional level to use a small bore for jazz and a large for legit? Shouldn't we encouraging players to seek a horn that fits their own unique vocal style and go from there? As a result you'd have to teach them also to learn how to create the characteristic sound for whatever they might be playing with whatever equipment suits them best and is most comfortable? I know this is common talk here on this forum but lately I've been contemplating the idea what it means to be a diverse and artistic trombonist. Also as to what type  of precautions and choices should be made when seeking to elevate the craft to the highest level.
Logged
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 49849
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Feb 14, 2017, 03:25PM »

Actually, there are a lot of times where a small bore horn works in Classical.  Most music written up to 1950 was written for small bore trombones or valve trombones.  I find when I'm playing in a smaller ensemble a small bore trombone works better.  For example, in "L'Histoire du Soldat" a small bore with F fits in the ensemble better (you need the F for a couple of notes).  And single trombone pieces like Debussy "Afternoon of a Faun" work much better on small bore.  We were doing the Sibelius 2nd Symphony and I brought my small bore (1925 Olds) to a rehearsal and found the blend when we had a chorale with the horns was very good.  The trend for symphonies, though, is to use a large bore instrument for everything.  You won't make a "proper" sound on a smaller one.  You certainly won't win an audition on a small bore.

In jazz, playing a lot of high music on a large bore can be VERY tiring.  Even worse if you try to use a bass trombone.  But there are many advocates of large bore instruments in jazz and they do a very creditable job.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
Stewbones43

*
Offline Offline

Location: Somerset U.K.
Joined: Mar 15, 2005
Posts: 2618

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Feb 14, 2017, 03:28PM »

With the orchestra I conduct, we are at present working on the last 2 movements of Berlioz's "Symphonie Fantastique" and Ravel's "Bolero". (Not for public performance-we can't play it well enough (yet) but just for our own enjoyment and experience)
Our normal "heavy brass" line up is usually 3 tenors (2x88H,1x682B), 1 bass (Reynolds Contempora double trigger) and 1 Besson New Standard EEb bass tuba (4 valve, compensated)
For this series I have suggested medium or medium-large tenors for trombones 1&2, large bore tenor for trombone 3, Tuba as normal and one of the trombone players doubles on euphonium so he is playing the 1st Ophicleide part. Seems to be working fine.

Cheers

Stewbones
Logged

Trombone means big trumpet-does that mean it is louder?
eightyeightH

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Nov 5, 2014
Posts: 262

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Feb 14, 2017, 03:39PM »

I wonder whether the person waving the stick could tell the difference if the players played different instruments? 

PS legit? Really? Would you tell Trombone Shorty (inter alia) he doesn't play legit music?
Logged

The definition of a gentleman: Someone who knows how to play the trombone, but doesn't.
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 49849
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Feb 14, 2017, 03:42PM »

I wonder whether the person waving the stick could tell the difference if the players played different instruments? 

...

Some yes, some no.  I have more respect for the ones who can.  Mostly for their wanting a specific sound (which is their job, after all).
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
Matt K

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 6548

View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: Feb 14, 2017, 03:52PM »

I've always understood the term 'legit' to have originated in the jazz community as a pejorative term to denote the stereotype of the snooty classical musicians who have little respect for other art forms. But I don't have a source for that.
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2104
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Feb 14, 2017, 03:53PM »

Shouldn't we encouraging players to seek a horn that fits their own unique vocal style and go from there?

Vocal style and uniqueness needs to be cultivated so long as it is competative to win "legit" jobs, and competition for said jobs is all playing large-bore.

As a result you'd have to teach them also to learn how to create the characteristic sound for whatever they might be playing with whatever equipment suits them best and is most comfortable?

Ayuh. Right gear for the job.
Logged

Tone it up.
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - Griego 1A ss
3B/F Silversonic - DE XT106, C+, D3
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
DaCapo

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 23, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Feb 14, 2017, 04:30PM »

Vocal style and uniqueness needs to be cultivated so long as it is competative to win "legit" jobs, and competition for said jobs is all playing large-bore.

Ayuh. Right gear for the job.
I guess what I'm asking here is why Large bore?
Logged
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 49849
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Feb 14, 2017, 04:40PM »

I guess what I'm asking here is why Large bore?

If you want to win an orchestral audition nowadays you have to play a large bore.

It's certainly possible to use a smaller instrument at times, BUT:

1.  Often the 1st and 2nd are a pair and should be on similar sized instruments.
2.  The 3rd trombone needs to be a bridge between the trombones and a tuba (often a very large one) and a smallish bore horn won't bridge.
3.  The fashion today is to use large bore trombones.  Conductors are looking for that sound.  And remember, if the guy waving the stick doesn't like your playing you need to find a different job.

If you listen to Ron Barron's "Le Trombone Francais" album you will hear him playing a Conn 88H and a Bach 36B.  No reason why you couldn't use a smaller bore for solo.

Note that a medium or small bore with F is popular in pit orchestras for shows.  You need to be able to cover the range of what used to be 3 different instruments and something like a King 3B-F lets you play high when you need to and to pop out a trigger note or three when that is called for.

Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
DaCapo

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 23, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Feb 14, 2017, 04:44PM »

I wonder whether the person waving the stick could tell the difference if the players played different instruments? 

PS legit? Really? Would you tell Trombone Shorty (inter alia) he doesn't play legit music?

You say it like I just made up the term up myself. Trust me, I'm not that cool...
Logged
DaCapo

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 23, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: Feb 14, 2017, 04:49PM »

Is the third trombone really that bridge to the tuba? I think if they actually intended to make a bridge between the two they would probably put it euphonium in between
Logged
eightyeightH

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Nov 5, 2014
Posts: 262

View Profile
« Reply #11 on: Feb 14, 2017, 04:51PM »

Not questioning your coolness, but it's a bit perjorative, whoever said it.
Logged

The definition of a gentleman: Someone who knows how to play the trombone, but doesn't.
MrPillow
Organologique et plus!

*
Offline Offline

Location: Vermillion, SD
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 1477

View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: Feb 14, 2017, 05:05PM »

I'm sure plenty of Baroque harpsichordist get complimented on their classical music without having an existential crisis....

Large-bore has been the American way for many decades now. In different places at different times, different sound concepts and instrument morphologies have prevailed. "small" and "large" are also of course relative terms - consider that the "small bore" tenor trombone of the American school with a 0.500" bore and 7" bell is a much heftier instrument in proportion than the small French instruments they succeeded at the turn of the 20th century.
Logged

King 3B/F Silversonic - King 608F - Holton Paul Whiteman Model
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 49849
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: Feb 14, 2017, 05:17PM »

Is the third trombone really that bridge to the tuba? I think if they actually intended to make a bridge between the two they would probably put it euphonium in between

When you become the conductor, you can choose what plays what.

Standard orchestral setups are two tenor trombones, a bass trombone, and a tuba.  Richard Strauss used a Tenor Tuba (Euphonium) in his orchestra.  Wagner introduced a contrabass trombone and large French Horn-like "Wagner Tuben".  Before the tuba was invented, the orchestral brass bass was an Ophicleide.  But you aren't going to get that Orchestral job auditioning on an ophicleide or a cimbasso when they are looking for a tuba player.

Why is it this way?  It just is.  Justified or not.  Way of the world.

You may want to try to make your way in a non-conventional fashion like our friend who plays jazz on an alto trombone.  But you are headed into rough territory that way.   Contractors don't hire non-conformists.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
Graham Martin
Purveyor of 'HOT' Jazz

*
Offline Offline

Location: Redland Bay, Queensland, AUSTRALIA
Joined: Nov 5, 2000
Posts: 11236
"Dixieland/Mainstream/Big Band"


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: Feb 14, 2017, 05:34PM »

I think Bruce hits the nail on the head when he says, "The fashion today is to use large bore trombones." Personally, I think it is a wrong fashion and does not do justice to either classical music, most of which was written for small bore; or for Big Bands and Jazz where it is completely the wrong sound to my ears. You also have to realise that most big band music for trombone is played in a much higher register than classical, concert and brass bands.

I remember in the mid 1950s when larger bore Bb/F trombones first started to appear in the UK. Most of the good jazz players gave them a try but their popularity soon waned. Like I say, it is completely the wrong sound. The trombone is not a bass instrument. It's a tenor instrument.
Logged

Grah

"May God bless and keep you always
May your wishes all come true
May you always do for others
And let others do for you
May you build a ladder to the stars
And climb on every rung
May you stay......forever young."
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: melbourne, australia
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 765

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: Feb 14, 2017, 06:53PM »

There are definitely a small handful of pro "legit" (whatever the term is, not important) trombone players who regularly play smallISH bore trombones in day to day orchestral playing. The one who impressed me the most was Harkan Bjorkman who when I met, could make a huge variety of sounds out of his yamaha which took a small shank mouthpiece at the time. Dont know if that is still what he is on.

I think one other reason that there are so few smaller bore trombonists in orchestra is probably  the same reason we dont see a huge number of tenor players on a mouthpiece as big as what Alessi plays.... Alessi makes it work and sounds simply unbelievable, but that gear simply doesn't work for everyone.... I think playing a small bore for day to day orchestral playing would be hard work for most. I know it would for me.

Honestly I think its a bit of a non issue.... If you can make a sound that impresses an audition panel on a small bore instrument  (which IS possible, just not by many players) then that is what you should play. I just think the number of players who could "weild and tame"  :D a small bore trombone in an modern orchestral setting are probably similar to the number of principle trombone players who can make a mouthpiece as big as Alessi's work. Possible, just not for all.
Logged
DaCapo

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 23, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« Reply #16 on: Feb 14, 2017, 07:10PM »

I'm pretty sure Hakan still plays his Yamaha Z for most of his work that I've seen in the past few years at least. A standard large bore just seems a little macho a seclusive when trying to match balance with the rest of the brass in an orchestra (horns and trumpets) and in terms of balance just makes more sense. This goes for the principal player at least, granted he or she is not playing Alto.

Hakan plays with the CEO and they play repertoire from vast amount of time periods. I'm pretty sure he changes horns around pretty frequently to fit the particular sound that was intended for that era. Oh yeah, when did large bore tenors become a thing?
Logged
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: melbourne, australia
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 765

View Profile
« Reply #17 on: Feb 14, 2017, 07:19PM »

Someone will know exactly, but with my limited knowledge i think dennis wick had a lot to do with it, promoting the 88h a lot. I would hazard a guess also that Basses becoming more of a seperate instrument and getting bigger would have had something to do with it.

I dont think its macho at all....  plenty of people think it blends perfectly well with trumpets and horns. Look at any big name orchestra for proof. Plenty of people also find large bore instruments easier to play than small. No machoism there....

I agree with you though that trombone players probably could swap instruments a little more depending on rep like trumpet players. Especially bass trombones. I think regularly using 2 or 3 would be cool.
Logged
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 49849
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: Feb 14, 2017, 07:21PM »

The transition appears to have been in the 1940s and 1950s.  Blame Emory Remington and Lew Van Haney (among others) who seem to be the apostles of the Conn 88H (and Holton 68, later the 150).  Denis Wick picked it up from the Americans.

...
I agree with you though that trombone players probably could swap instruments a little more depending on rep like trumpet players. Especially bass trombones. I think regularly using 2 or 3 would be cool.

Simultaneously? Evil :-P
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: melbourne, australia
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 765

View Profile
« Reply #19 on: Feb 14, 2017, 07:26PM »

The transition appears to have been in the 1940s and 1950s.  Blame Emory Remington and Lew Van Haney (among others) who seem to be the apostles of the Conn 88H (and Holton 68, later the 150).  Denis Wick picked it up from the Americans.

Simultaneously? Evil :-P

Of course. How else could you interpret that?  :D
Logged
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 49849
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: Feb 14, 2017, 07:33PM »

Of course. How else could you interpret that?  :D

As in one trombone on each lip :-P :-P
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2104
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: Feb 14, 2017, 08:49PM »

Weren't the tenor trombones with F attachments during the romantic period relatively large bore?

In any case, it's not a macho thing. Some of it has to do with recordings getting louder and louder. Some of it has to do with how easy it is to sound great on a large bore.

Don't go making waves now hahaha
Logged

Tone it up.
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - Griego 1A ss
3B/F Silversonic - DE XT106, C+, D3
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 49849
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: Feb 14, 2017, 09:00PM »

Trombones with F-attachments during the Romantic Era were also fairly rare.  In most cases they were used as bass trombones.  The idea of everybody using an F-attachment instrument is relatively recent.  When I was in High School most of us had straight tenors and only the 3rd trombones got the F-attachments.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
BillO
Trying to be better.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 1978

View Profile
« Reply #23 on: Feb 14, 2017, 09:08PM »

I've always understood the term 'legit' to have originated in the jazz community as a pejorative term to denote the stereotype of the snooty classical musicians who have little respect for other art forms. But I don't have a source for that.
In this context I'd think you'd be source enough Matt.

Prejudice in music is the same as prejudice anywhere, and judgement is in the eye, ear and mind of the beholder.

I agree with your assessment.  And it leads to more than a little disappointment.  I've always hoped to believe that musicians, as artists,  have had wider scope of acceptance than is normal for the average of the general populace.  Simply because of our appreciation of the art.
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
BillO
Trying to be better.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 1978

View Profile
« Reply #24 on: Feb 14, 2017, 09:14PM »

Vocal style and uniqueness needs to be cultivated so long as it is competativeto win "legit" jobs, and competition for said jobs is all playing large-bore.
???

'There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy'.

Just sayin' Harrison...
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
ntap
*
Offline Offline

Location: New York, NY
Joined: Aug 14, 2007
Posts: 958

View Profile
« Reply #25 on: Feb 14, 2017, 09:17PM »

I've always understood the term 'legit' to have originated in the jazz community as a pejorative term to denote the stereotype of the snooty classical musicians who have little respect for other art forms. But I don't have a source for that.

Never heard this used as a put down....Players of all colors will say "so and so is a great legit player" or "he plays very good legit as well as jazz."  I don't believe it to be pejorative at all.  Might have originated in a time when jazz was forbidden to be played/practiced at conservatories, but I have never heard this used as a put down.  In what context have you heard this as an insult?  
Logged

BillO
Trying to be better.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 1978

View Profile
« Reply #26 on: Feb 14, 2017, 09:24PM »

Is the third trombone really that bridge to the tuba? I think if they actually intended to make a bridge between the two they would probably put it euphonium in between

The Euphonium is usually a solo instrument where it is specifically scored.  Bass/3rd trombone does actually seem to be a bridge between the trombones and the tubas.  Not quite but frequently, when playing with a 'trombone bass/3rd' part I'm playing scores that in part double with the tubas.  Sometimes I'm actually asked to play tuba parts!!!
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
BillO
Trying to be better.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 1978

View Profile
« Reply #27 on: Feb 14, 2017, 09:39PM »

... Some of it has to do with recordings getting louder and louder. Some of it has to do with how easy it is to sound great on a large bore.
Is it that large bores are 'louder', or is it that they are 'fuller'.  I'd be willing to take bets on that.  I think the issue is how you define louder, by what the audience hears, or by what you mic 9" from the bell.

Don't go making waves now hahaha
What me?  Make waves?  Pffft, I'm not known around here as having a contrary opinion, am I???? Hi
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2065

View Profile
« Reply #28 on: Feb 15, 2017, 05:10AM »

A few points, gleaned from reading of TTF over the decades, and I am thankful for it as a resource to fill in huge gaps in all of our collective knowledge:

Probably 100,000 posts on TTF relate to Jay Friedman or the Chicago Symphony sound.
Likely principal trombonists of major symphony orchestras turn out many hundreds of times their own numbers as students with qualifications to fill the teacher's chair properly-- or they should be prepared-- once they have a M.Mus. Shouldn't they?

And so, the question!
Q:Who was the U.S. president when Friedman was hired by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra?
A: John F. Kennedy

Q: Who was the president of the United States when Friedman was appointed principal trombone there?
A. Lyndon B. Johnson

And so, for 56 years that chair in the Chicago Symphony has NOT been up for audition, or open for a new player.

My question-
Are we, as trombonists doing OURSELVES, any favors by chasing something obsolete since 1961? Can't we try something new? Can't we try something new?
It is NOT just Chicago. Now, go down to your local record store and look on the album jackets and see if you can identify any of the trombones or trombonists on the latest recordings of a Mahler symphony. Oh, wait........ no record stores left. No recordings left.
Sorry. This was a wasted post. Please forget it.
Logged
Dombat
*
Offline Offline

Location: Ulm, Germany
Joined: Sep 5, 2004
Posts: 1693

View Profile
« Reply #29 on: Feb 15, 2017, 05:37AM »

For me it is a question of getting the job done as best as possible. Sometimes I would really like to have a smaller horn for a movement of a symphony or when I am playing soli with woodwinds, other times I want a horn that can blend down into the low brass... a large bore horn does this job for me well enough, sometimes I have to work more to get the exact sound I want but it all comes out balanced in the end.

In terms of changing horns, it is a nice idea in my opinion but not always possible. I have to play performances of Tchaikovsky Pique Dame, Berg Lulu and Ravel Bolero this week. If I had three horns for thr three works I would be going crazy. I use my (large bore)horn and play the best I can.
Logged
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2104
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #30 on: Feb 15, 2017, 06:01AM »

???

'There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy'.

Just sayin' Harrison...

What I was saying is that TEACHERS, referred to by the OP, do students no favors in the performance world as far as auditions for legit jobs go, as mentioned by the OP, by saying:

"Nahhhh, you're right. Forget about getting a largebore tenor, young freshman. You know best a nd we're gonna cultivate that unique sound!"

For more creative music? Say, at Berklee? Sure.
Logged

Tone it up.
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - Griego 1A ss
3B/F Silversonic - DE XT106, C+, D3
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: melbourne, australia
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 765

View Profile
« Reply #31 on: Feb 15, 2017, 06:24AM »

A few points, gleaned from reading of TTF over the decades, and I am thankful for it as a resource to fill in huge gaps in all of our collective knowledge:

Probably 100,000 posts on TTF relate to Jay Friedman or the Chicago Symphony sound.
Likely principal trombonists of major symphony orchestras turn out many hundreds of times their own numbers as students with qualifications to fill the teacher's chair properly-- or they should be prepared-- once they have a M.Mus. Shouldn't they?

And so, the question!
Q:Who was the U.S. president when Friedman was hired by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra?
A: John F. Kennedy

Q: Who was the president of the United States when Friedman was appointed principal trombone there?
A. Lyndon B. Johnson

And so, for 56 years that chair in the Chicago Symphony has NOT been up for audition, or open for a new player.

My question-
Are we, as trombonists doing OURSELVES, any favors by chasing something obsolete since 1961? Can't we try something new? Can't we try something new?
It is NOT just Chicago. Now, go down to your local record store and look on the album jackets and see if you can identify any of the trombones or trombonists on the latest recordings of a Mahler symphony. Oh, wait........ no record stores left. No recordings left.
Sorry. This was a wasted post. Please forget it.


You are right..... I think it is a bit of a wasted post. Your point is not clear. At least, not to me.
No recordings left? What does that mean? We have easy access to more recordings from around the world more than ever.
I dont understand your point with Chicago. There are distinct differences of sound between major orchestras not just around the world but in America. The New York Phil record a very different Mahler to Chicago. If you cant hear that, you simply aren't listening hard enough.

Cant we try something new? You mean play small bore trombones in orchestral settings? Its been done. As i said earlier in the thread, its still being done by some. Its not popular, but for good reason I think. As I said earlier, some people can do it and sound great! Most can not.
Logged
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2104
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #32 on: Feb 15, 2017, 06:24AM »

Is it that large bores are 'louder', or is it that they are 'fuller'.  I'd be willing to take bets on that.  I think the issue is how you define louder, by what the audience hears, or by what you mic 9" from the bell.

Right but you need to remember that it's a recording as a whole. Everything is getting louder with a cleaner signal on recordings across all genres. Recordings are very much realer than real and recreate a performance that never happened.

Now imagine you grew up listening to those same recordings, you've got the job in the orchestra, and you know the audience probably just listened to the program on Naxos before coming so they can be "educated listeners". In many cases in this context a small bore trombone will disappoint you, the orchestra, and the audience. The audience may not even know why, but they likely will think that something was off.
Logged

Tone it up.
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - Griego 1A ss
3B/F Silversonic - DE XT106, C+, D3
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
Gabe Langfur

*
Offline Offline

Location: Boston, MA, USA
Joined: Apr 9, 2000
Posts: 4887

View Profile WWW
« Reply #33 on: Feb 15, 2017, 06:27AM »

It's entirely possible to use a small or medium bore trombone in some orchestral settings, but you have to be very comfortable with it, and it's honestly not appropriate all the time.

For example, Toby Oft of the Boston Symphony is using a Bach 36 for some things these days - Bolero and other French repertoire, for example. I've been at a concert where Jay Friedman and Mick Mulcahy used old small bore instruments for Bolero. I was at another CSO concert where they used those small bores and Charlie played a large bore tenor on the third part of Symphonie Fantastique.

I've played a couple of programs with a guy named David Loucky, who freelances in the Nashville area and teaches at Middle Tennessee State, where he played a Mt. Vernon Bach 8 and I played my 70H. The 2nd trombone players in each case played large bores (actually one was a .525-.547 dual bore with a large shank mouthpiece) but with very focused sounds. We were in an orchestra with a very small but excellent string section and were playing earlier Romantic repertoire - Schubert and Brahms. It worked great; we were able to play with a real dynamic range without having to worry about overbalancing. In bigger repertoire David plays a 42B. I've played other concerts with him where he played a 36B. David is a special player who is very comfortable on all his trombones (and euphonium, and ophecleide, and bass trombone, etc. etc.).

I would like to see this more often, and we're starting to talk about it in one of my orchestras.
Logged

Gabe Langfur
Bass Trombonist
Rhode Island Philharmonic
Vermont Symphony
Rodney Marsalis Philadelphia Big Brass

Trombone Faculty
Boston University
Kinhaven Music School
Wellesley College

S. E. Shires Artist
bonenick

*
Offline Offline

Location: Bulgaria
Joined: Nov 29, 2016
Posts: 576
"Life is change. Growth is optional. Choose wisely."


View Profile WWW
« Reply #34 on: Feb 15, 2017, 06:29AM »

I guess it all depends on the orchestra, the conductor and the work in question.

Some orchestra are so set to certain type of sound and certain equipment (this is not only about trombones - think trumpets - rotary or pistons, certain type of horns etc...Many gravitate around a rounder, darker sound and certain type of visual conventions (they hear with their eyes). Unless you play in Vienna Philharmonic, I don't think it is a big deal.

If you do something out of the ordinary, but it sounds OK, just pretend that you are using the most traditional equipment on earth - most of the time it will work.
Logged
Stan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: Mar 2, 2003
Posts: 495

View Profile
« Reply #35 on: Feb 15, 2017, 06:31AM »

I'm going to blame a specific teacher:  I think this is Emory Remington's fault. 

Slightly OT, but bass trombonists seem to suffer periodic existential crises because their horns are just really big tenor trombones and it's an underdeveloped instrument and it's a makeshift instrument, etc etc.  Wick and Kleinhammer were talking about that in the 70s and 80s.

But Remington has a great deal to do with the popularization of the .547 bore, F-attachment "tenor" as the standard sized "tenor" in classical playing.  And a lot of that was likely practicality.  Remington's students, armed with their Bb/F instruments, could go forth and audition for any open trombone position in every orchestra.  Those were often attached to teaching positions.  Thus, those teachers pushed 88H style instruments to their students, and so on.  The trombone that kept showing up in the orchestra was a large-bored "tenor" instrument with an F attachment.  This necessitated getting a bigger bass trombone, and here we are.

How many of Remington's students ended up in orchestras and teaching at universities?  Lots of them.  How many of the Chief's students ended up playing jazz professionally?  I can't think of a single one. 

Big band sections today, with horns hovering around .500 and a larger-bored bass, look like orchestra and band sections looked 100 years ago.

I'm all for a return to smaller equipment on tenor trombones in legit settings; they're easier to play!

Stan
Logged
cmillar
*
Offline Offline

Location: Toronto
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 314

View Profile WWW
« Reply #36 on: Feb 15, 2017, 07:16AM »

Here are are my 'sacrilegious' thoughts and observations (coming from me, a legit/orchestrally trained musician who has spent most of my career playing 'commercial, jazz, shows, rock, latin, etc. styles of music, with some great orchestral playing opportunities along the way. I've had great players as teachers, heard great players in all styles, and stand by what I say.)

(By 'best', I refer to the most 'life in the sound', the most inspiring blend of overtones, the most musicality for the given musical style, the most 'moving' to the audience (most of whom don't give a crap about what kind of trombone is being played, and are just using their ears)


My list of what 'moves' me and continually inspires: (I don't really know the rest of the world's players that much, except through recordings or live concerts as noted)



Most 'musically moving' orchestral sounds I've heard:

 - a NYC section of Jim Pugh, Ed Neumeister, and Dave Taylor. (2 small/medium bore tenors and Dave's bass trombone)
 - any LSO recordings with Denis Wick, principal (Conn 88H) or Ian Bousfield (Conn 88H ?)
 - 'ET' soundtrack with Lloyd Ulyate, principal (Bach 12); or most any LA studio film score recordings (mix of horns, from small Bach's and King's to Conn 88H's)
 - Vancouver Symphony Orchestra (when they had Gordon Cherry and Greg Cox playing Conn 88H's, and Doug Sparkes playing a Conn bass trombone)

(*..a thought... most of the world has been listening to 'orchestral music' through film scores recorded mostly in LA over the last 80 years. Most of those years the horns were all .495, .500, .508, .509, .525 in size. Only in recent years has there been a demand for 'large bore' horns (.525 or larger). Some of the most 'moving' music in the world has all been created with small or medium bore horns and their inherent sounds.)

 

'Most musically moving' classical/art music soloists sound (live or recorded):

 - Miles Anderson (Bach 12); Ian McDougall (King 2B+); Jim Pugh (Edwards .500); Ed Neumeister (King 3B); Christian      Lindberg (Conn 88H); Ronald Borror (Conn 88H, Bach 36B); Glenn Ferris (King 3BF)


'Most musically moving' show/pit players:

 - Bruce Eidem, NY (Bach 36); Jack Gale, NY (Bach 36), or all the many fantastic players in NY that have used King 3B's or Bach 16's and 12's


'Most moving' live/recorded sounds of miscellaneous styles that I've had the pleasure of hearing:

Urbie Green, NY (King 2B, Martin)
James Pankow, "Chicago" (King 3B, Yamaha 691)
Sam Burtis, NY (various small/med horns)
Birch Johnson, NY (Bach 12)
Keith O'Quinn, NY (Bach 16?)
the late Jerry Johnson, Toronto (King 2B, 3B, Yamaha 697z)
Al Kay, Toronto (Yamaha 697z, King 2B, Yamaha 646?)
Russ Little, Toronto (King's, Yamaha 697z)
Nils Landgren, Sweden (Yamaha 500/525)
the late Bob Stroup, Edmonton (hybrid .500 horns)
the late Dave McMurdo, Toronto (Williams 6)
Bob Livingston, Toronto (King 2B)
Mark Nightingale, London (small Rath)


BEST SOUND EVER Award:   the late, legendary Dave Robbins (Williams 6).

(*true story....when Don Waldrop, the great LA studio bass trombonist was visiting Vancouver, he came to a recording session of 5 trombones/rhythm section and helped 'tonmeister'. Dave Robbins was playing lead. Waldrop said he'd heard of the legendary Dave Robbins' time in LA, but upon hearing him live, Waldrop said he's never, ever heard such an amazing trombone sound, except for maybe Tommy Pederson or Lloyd Ulyate. And he'd heard some pretty awesome LA trombone players in his time there, to be sure.)
Dave had played lead trombone in the Harry James Orchestra, did LA studio work, played everything possible in Vancouver,Canada. He had also played with Denver Symphony, US Presidents Marine's Own Band, and more.


What's the point of my musical musings?

Well, large bore horns are pretty over-rated when it comes to people thinking they 'can serve all musical purposes.' Large bore horns have their time and place, as do small bore horns.

Oh yeah...WORST SOUND EVER Awards go to:

- any Jazz bands that have sections consisting of entirely large-bore horns.











Logged

DaCapo

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 23, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« Reply #37 on: Feb 15, 2017, 08:42AM »

Despite wether large bore is easier to play or small bore. Wouldn't it be cool if the top custom trombone designers actually focused time on a making a small bore horn with an f attachment designed for the major symphonic and commercial repertoire? I mean there's just a big gaping whole in the mainstream between these small and large bores. More often in these settings don't we balance with the trumpets and horns? So is it logical in terms of balance and integrity to do things like, balance out the orchestra and diversify the timbre of the section. With so many incredible players who are able to play so well on a small bore with an incredible sound, I just think it is wrong to limit their ability to commercial jazz when the small size fits them well no matter what they play. So as a community there needs to be a demand in the market for these kind of horns (orchestra small bore) and the incredible sound concept they present. Large bore horns are amazing, and we all know that.... But to have a whole section of them,is a little off-putting. Considering the history of our music we play and the characteristic sound they were looking for when writing for the lead Tenor Trombone. It can't be the dead straight standard anymore. I don't think we're doing our beloved instrument as a whole any justice.
Logged
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 49849
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #38 on: Feb 15, 2017, 08:59AM »

First, Shires makes a nice 0.508" trombone and they have an F-attachment for it.  Apparently smaller bore instruments don't do so well in modular, so the smaller horns are not modular.

Second, if you are playing the higher trombone parts an F-attachment is not necessary.  In the "bad old days" they would offer a whole step or half step "trill valve" (still offered on some alto trombones).

You want to use a small bore in symphony?  Have at it.  But you need to play the large bore to win the audition; after that you can use what helps give the guy in front the sound he's looking for.

Denis Wick introduced the 88H into England to help replace some VERY small bore instruments used in English orchestras at the time.  They had a rather funny sound -- I think the term "piercing" would describe it.  The 88H coupled with a Bb/F large bore bass made the sound much more pleasant.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2104
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #39 on: Feb 15, 2017, 09:29AM »

Before I get started, I will recognise that my following post is intended to rip your post to shreds. You are a "trombone major and professional", so I don't feel bad doing it. I also have the feeling that this topic was prompted because your teacher told you to use certain equipment and you don't want to. Posting huge responses full of baseless claims and false info where you claim to speak for the whole community justifies the following response:

Wouldn't it be cool...

Here we go...

...if the top custom trombone designers actually focused time on a making a small bore horn with an f attachment designed for the major symphonic and commercial repertoire?

Uh oh... wait, what?

Come on Shires! You need to focus more time into your .525 line of instruments!



And stop making those small bore (.490 - .508) bore trombones with the same options. And the T25 medium bore slide. Not enough time was focused on that.



Shame on you, King. You need to focus more time on your .508 bore 3B/F which has been around since the 60s.



Shame shame, Bach. The 36B just doesn't cut it.

I mean there's just a big gaping whole in the mainstream between these small and large bores.

False. See above.

More often in these settings don't we balance with the trumpets and horns?

Very easy to do on large bore instruments. Have you played in an orchestra before or listened to any professional orchestra recordings?

So is it logical in terms of balance and integrity to do things like, balance out the orchestra and diversify the timbre of the section.

Huh?

With so many incredible players who are able to play so well on a small bore with an incredible sound, I just think it is wrong to limit their ability to commercial jazz when the small size fits them well no matter what they play.

Who? Who is an amazing jazz player who actually wants to play in an orchestra? Of that short list, who wants to do so on their jazz horn? The above is completely fabricated and just an idea you think is the case.

So as a community there needs to be a demand in the market for these kind of horns (orchestra small bore) and the incredible sound concept they present.


As a "Trombone major and early professional", you should only speak for yourself. Where is this demand? Are you calling upon the brass community to demand these instruments? It already exists. It's a small specialty demand.

Large bore horns are amazing, and we all know that.... But to have a whole section of them, is a little off-putting.

Have you ever heard an orchestra before? "I'm sorry [insert any major orchestra section here] ... but your section playing is just off-putting."

Considering the history of our music we play and the characteristic sound they were looking for when writing for the lead Tenor Trombone.

I would say "lead bone" would be written for a small bore. In that cool jazzy notation script. The one thing you should mostly play on small bore and somehow its being played on a symphonic tenor in your world.

It can't be the dead straight standard anymore. I don't think we're doing our beloved instrument as a whole any justice.

You should speak only for yourself.

What year of "trombone major" are you at? Has your teacher told you that you need specific equipment for specific jobs? Is this topic prompted from your unwillingness to buy the right gear for the job you want?

Logged

Tone it up.
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - Griego 1A ss
3B/F Silversonic - DE XT106, C+, D3
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
MoominDave

*
Offline Offline

Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 2943

View Profile
« Reply #40 on: Feb 15, 2017, 09:35AM »

Denis Wick introduced the 88H into England to help replace some VERY small bore instruments used in English orchestras at the time.  They had a rather funny sound -- I think the term "piercing" would describe it.  The 88H coupled with a Bb/F large bore bass made the sound much more pleasant.

Orchestral players had not been using the small stuff for a fair while before Wick. We're going back before WW2. Brass bands were different, and stayed on the small stuff until the late 60s - much longer in some cases.
Logged

Dave Taylor

(me, not the other one)
Stan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: Mar 2, 2003
Posts: 495

View Profile
« Reply #41 on: Feb 15, 2017, 09:49AM »

@Dave

That's absolutely true.  Wick picked up Conn trombones, post-war, in the US.  There was an embargo in Britain following WWII that prevented the import of brass instruments to foster national industry.  The Besson trombones of that era weren't in the same category of the Conns, and so Wick helped several players smuggle Conn instruments into the country when the LPO did concert tours in Florida.  After the embargo, the British symphony scene had moved to Conn instruments and were hooked.

I still maintain that Wick and Remington, together, are largely responsible for the use of large-bore instruments in modern English-speaking orchestras.

Stan
Logged
cmillar
*
Offline Offline

Location: Toronto
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 314

View Profile WWW
« Reply #42 on: Feb 15, 2017, 09:56AM »


Very easy to do on large bore instruments. Have you played in an orchestra before or listened to any professional orchestra recordings?


With all due respect to all my fellow trombone players and poster...

...some of the worst, egotistical, out of balance, unmusical, uncalled for, totally disrespectful to the music, totally disrespectful to the conductor, totally oblivious to the audience, and most crass trombone playing comes from a lot of orchestral trombone sections.

Bigger doesn't mean better. Smaller doesn't mean better. It's about balance.

It's about musicality.

A huge, lugubrious trombone section obliterating an orchestra of less than 60 players always sounds ridiculous.

Large bore horns usually sound out of place in concert bands, too. Less nimble, too loud, no focus.

Who's kidding who? We've all been there.... dirty looks from the conductor, disdain from the strings.

Also.... why do orchestral trombone sections all want to sound the same anyways? There's seems to be a conformist attitude to using the same gear, huge mouthpieces, etc. that does a real disservice to the music... to the composer's intentions, the conductors' intentions.

You're a lucky musician if you're in a situation and the conductor actually asks for a change in equipment.

Even luckier if you've had a teacher or colleague clue you in on why you should use different gear for different music.

There should be use of smaller bore horns for orchestral use. That'd be a great trend.

I'm just speaking as a composer/arranger and trombone player who loves music.... more than I love the trombone.

Logged

harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2104
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: Feb 15, 2017, 10:01AM »

Cmillar,

Are you talking about amateur community bands and orchestras? I agree, with you -- poorly played loud trombone is terrible. That has nothing to do with equipment. Small bore wouldn't help in that situation. In my experience, small bore trombones are actually louder and rip through everything.

I usually have conductors asking for more trombone in the brass choirs, orchestras, and concert bands I've played in.

From what I've seen, using large bores in a real symphony actually helps blend. When smaller equipment is used, usually for good reason, the clean sound actually stands out more.

For what it's worth, I believe that both small and large bore has a solid place in the orchestra. The OP posted enough crazy stuff that I felt obliged to reply. In the end, how many people are making enough to live by playing trombone in a symphony? Probably less than 500. They probably all have it figured out about what they want to play on.
Logged

Tone it up.
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - Griego 1A ss
3B/F Silversonic - DE XT106, C+, D3
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
bonenick

*
Offline Offline

Location: Bulgaria
Joined: Nov 29, 2016
Posts: 576
"Life is change. Growth is optional. Choose wisely."


View Profile WWW
« Reply #44 on: Feb 15, 2017, 10:21AM »

The tendency towards bigger equipment (bigger mouthpieces, bigger bells, slower flares, larger bore and so on) is usually dictated by three factors in larger orchestras (70+ members):

1. Bigger equipment is more forgiving to loud dynamics (less distortion, the sound is more uniform throughout the range and dynamics)
2. Gives darker sound
3. Less likely to stick out.

Whether this is a good thing, is a POV. But it is kind of logical, at least most of the time.
Logged
uncle duke
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jan 15, 2017
Posts: 72

View Profile
« Reply #45 on: Feb 15, 2017, 10:35AM »

It'll be alright DaCapo - if you're like me you can make any trombone sound good.  Way cool

I see the King 2B was mentioned earlier.  It is a design that can keep players from overpowering other players if need be.  Who would try that horn at an orchestra rehearsal?

  Question one for myself would be could I look forward to playing/practicing knowing all I have to look at is a brass colored bell section of a 2B when the case is opened as compared to a rose/red bell horn enabling a few more hours per day of playing just because of a better looking instrument?   
Logged
JohnL
Edge Monster

*
Offline Offline

Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 7045

View Profile WWW
« Reply #46 on: Feb 15, 2017, 12:38PM »

Also.... why do orchestral trombone sections all want to sound the same anyways? There's seems to be a conformist attitude to using the same gear, huge mouthpieces, etc. that does a real disservice to the music... to the composer's intentions, the conductors' intentions.
But do they actually want to sound the same? Or are they conforming to what has become the norm in the industry? Going along to get along?

My experience is, admittedly, very limited, but it seems that a lot of conductors want a trombone section that can "lay waste to the orchestra", even though they don't want them to ever actually DO it. It's kinda like having a really scary looking dog that's well trained - you not only take pride in the scary dog, but you take even more pride in the fact that said scary dog obeys your every command.
Logged

Like the chicken says:
"You knew the job was dangerous when you took it."
cmillar
*
Offline Offline

Location: Toronto
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 314

View Profile WWW
« Reply #47 on: Feb 15, 2017, 12:57PM »

Cmillar,

Are you talking about amateur community bands and orchestras? I agree, with you -- poorly played loud trombone is terrible. That has nothing to do with equipment. Small bore wouldn't help in that situation. In my experience, small bore trombones are actually louder and rip through everything.

I usually have conductors asking for more trombone in the brass choirs, orchestras, and concert bands I've played in.

From what I've seen, using large bores in a real symphony actually helps blend. When smaller equipment is used, usually for good reason, the clean sound actually stands out more.

For what it's worth, I believe that both small and large bore has a solid place in the orchestra. The OP posted enough crazy stuff that I felt obliged to reply. In the end, how many people are making enough to live by playing trombone in a symphony? Probably less than 500. They probably all have it figured out about what they want to play on.


I think one reason some conductors 'ask for more' is because quite often the brilliance of a good trombone sound is lost with some players and their large bore horns. The sound is just bland.

So, the conductor asks for more sound from the trombones.

Which could be solved by having the trombones play a .525 size horn, instead of a .547 with giant mouthpiece.

Just a few more overtones in the right places with a touch of depth to the sound.

Then, you've got a real trombone sound.... not a 'half-euphonium blend'.

A trombone sound that blends in with trumpets when needed to add the 'feel', and that can also sound great as a 'soli-section'.

Food for thought.
Logged

Radar

*
Offline Offline

Location: Rochester NY
Joined: Feb 23, 2012
Posts: 578

View Profile
« Reply #48 on: Feb 15, 2017, 01:28PM »

I've always understood the term 'legit' to have originated in the jazz community as a pejorative term to denote the stereotype of the snooty classical musicians who have little respect for other art forms. But I don't have a source for that.

I'm not sure of the origin, but I've always understood that the term "Legit" was used to describe Classically trained musicians.  I don't know if it was a slam on Jazzers or vice versus, but it's a pretty common term.
Logged
davdud101
The Kid

*
Offline Offline

Location: Detroit, MI
Joined: Jun 20, 2014
Posts: 880
"Put yourself in the shoes of the listener."


View Profile WWW
« Reply #49 on: Feb 15, 2017, 01:33PM »

I wonder whether the person waving the stick could tell the difference if the players played different instruments? 

For those of you who lead or work with community and/or school bands - does this bother you guys? I never thought of it being a problem before joining this forum. Then again, even then i wasn't super-interested in orchestras or their typical instrumentations.

I very much understand WHY one wouldn't use a  large bore on top of small bores, but are there any audio examples to get to HEAR how it sounds? I played first in my high school's band most years on a large bore, but we probably had far bigger problems than an unbalance in instrumentation/instrument selection.
Logged

Don't practice until you get it right.
Practice until you can't get it wrong.
Radar

*
Offline Offline

Location: Rochester NY
Joined: Feb 23, 2012
Posts: 578

View Profile
« Reply #50 on: Feb 15, 2017, 01:42PM »

Someone will know exactly, but with my limited knowledge i think dennis wick had a lot to do with it, promoting the 88h a lot. I would hazard a guess also that Basses becoming more of a seperate instrument and getting bigger would have had something to do with it.

I dont think its macho at all....  plenty of people think it blends perfectly well with trumpets and horns. Look at any big name orchestra for proof. Plenty of people also find large bore instruments easier to play than small. No machoism there....

I agree with you though that trombone players probably could swap instruments a little more depending on rep like trumpet players. Especially bass trombones. I think regularly using 2 or 3 would be cool.
I think Emory Remington working with Conn to develop the 88H, and his influence on his students at Eastman School Probably led to Dennis Wick's interest and use of the Horn in London and Europe.
Logged
blast

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: scotland
Joined: Jul 26, 2001
Posts: 6810
"Bass/Contrabass trombone, Scottish Opera."


View Profile
« Reply #51 on: Feb 15, 2017, 02:04PM »

I think Emory Remington working with Conn to develop the 88H, and his influence on his students at Eastman School Probably led to Dennis Wick's interest and use of the Horn in London and Europe.

It was the NYPO playing at the Edinburgh festival that inspired british players to look for the large Conn trombones.

Chris Stearn
Logged

Still cannot think of anything better to do. Back on an old 1 1/2G again !
blast

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: scotland
Joined: Jul 26, 2001
Posts: 6810
"Bass/Contrabass trombone, Scottish Opera."


View Profile
« Reply #52 on: Feb 15, 2017, 02:07PM »

@Dave

That's absolutely true.  Wick picked up Conn trombones, post-war, in the US.  There was an embargo in Britain following WWII that prevented the import of brass instruments to foster national industry.  The Besson trombones of that era weren't in the same category of the Conns, and so Wick helped several players smuggle Conn instruments into the country when the LPO did concert tours in Florida.  After the embargo, the British symphony scene had moved to Conn instruments and were hooked.

I still maintain that Wick and Remington, together, are largely responsible for the use of large-bore instruments in modern English-speaking orchestras.

Stan

I think it was the Philharmonia section that first attempted to bring Conn tenors back to the UK.  They were confiscated !!

Chris Stearn

Logged

Still cannot think of anything better to do. Back on an old 1 1/2G again !
blast

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: scotland
Joined: Jul 26, 2001
Posts: 6810
"Bass/Contrabass trombone, Scottish Opera."


View Profile
« Reply #53 on: Feb 15, 2017, 02:09PM »

First, Shires makes a nice 0.508" trombone and they have an F-attachment for it.  Apparently smaller bore instruments don't do so well in modular, so the smaller horns are not modular.

Second, if you are playing the higher trombone parts an F-attachment is not necessary.  In the "bad old days" they would offer a whole step or half step "trill valve" (still offered on some alto trombones).

You want to use a small bore in symphony?  Have at it.  But you need to play the large bore to win the audition; after that you can use what helps give the guy in front the sound he's looking for.

Denis Wick introduced the 88H into England to help replace some VERY small bore instruments used in English orchestras at the time.  They had a rather funny sound -- I think the term "piercing" would describe it.  The 88H coupled with a Bb/F large bore bass made the sound much more pleasant.

Bruce... your comments on the sound of British orchestras playing small bore trombones... are these based on hearing actual recordings ?

Chris Stearn
Logged

Still cannot think of anything better to do. Back on an old 1 1/2G again !
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 49849
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #54 on: Feb 15, 2017, 02:23PM »

Mostly based on Denis Wick's comments in "Trombone Technique".  And playing small bores myself (I have a sub-0.480" trombone).

You can make a nice sound on a small bore, but it's hard.  And I've heard too many comments on classifying the G bass as really a "percussion instrument".
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
Pre59

*
Offline Offline

Location: Devon UK
Joined: May 26, 2015
Posts: 367

View Profile
« Reply #55 on: Feb 15, 2017, 02:23PM »

Bruce... your comments on the sound of British orchestras playing small bore trombones... are these based on hearing actual recordings ?

Chris Stearn

As a kid (in the early 60's) we got to attend free orchestral concerts (during class time!), and I can remember the thrill of hearing a brass section playing "vivid", in pieces like Scheherazade and Young Person Guide etc. That's never left me, heavy modern brass doesn't just doesn't have the range of colour that I like.

There, I said it..

 

Logged
sf105
*
Offline Offline

Location: London
Joined: Sep 22, 2011
Posts: 251

View Profile
« Reply #56 on: Feb 15, 2017, 02:38PM »

I see the beginnings of a return from the era of the sound cannon. Firstly, there are several top-class period orchestras who are pushing into the romantic era: Age of Enlightenment, and Les Siecles for example. They're rediscovering the balance and quirks that orchestras used to have before everything got louder. I've also seen smaller bores at Covent Garden for some of the older works.

For me, the classic example is Berlioz's use of pedal notes. I've done the Grande Messe on a small tenor. It produced a wonderful rattle, with the harmonics picked out by the flutes. On modern big horns, you either get a vague glow underneath or, if you push the horn, destroy the back violas and swamp the flute notes. Neither seems right.

S
Logged
blast

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: scotland
Joined: Jul 26, 2001
Posts: 6810
"Bass/Contrabass trombone, Scottish Opera."


View Profile
« Reply #57 on: Feb 15, 2017, 02:48PM »

Mostly based on Denis Wick's comments in "Trombone Technique".  And playing small bores myself (I have a sub-0.480" trombone).

You can make a nice sound on a small bore, but it's hard.  And I've heard too many comments on classifying the G bass as really a "percussion instrument".

That is Denis Wick justifying what he did in moving to the big instruments. There were indeed many benefits. You should listen to some pre war British orchestra recordings.... now a lost art... don't assume small instruments are inferior. I recently played on a recording that Ian Bousfield did of the Sache concerto on a small Sax trombone... nothing inferior there.

Chris Stearn
Logged

Still cannot think of anything better to do. Back on an old 1 1/2G again !
ntap
*
Offline Offline

Location: New York, NY
Joined: Aug 14, 2007
Posts: 958

View Profile
« Reply #58 on: Feb 15, 2017, 03:44PM »

Here are are my 'sacrilegious' thoughts and observations (coming from me, a legit/orchestrally trained musician who has spent most of my career playing 'commercial, jazz, shows, rock, latin, etc. styles of music, with some great orchestral playing opportunities along the way. I've had great players as teachers, heard great players in all styles, and stand by what I say.)

(By 'best', I refer to the most 'life in the sound', the most inspiring blend of overtones, the most musicality for the given musical style, the most 'moving' to the audience (most of whom don't give a crap about what kind of trombone is being played, and are just using their ears)


My list of what 'moves' me and continually inspires: (I don't really know the rest of the world's players that much, except through recordings or live concerts as noted)



Most 'musically moving' orchestral sounds I've heard:

 - a NYC section of Jim Pugh, Ed Neumeister, and Dave Taylor. (2 small/medium bore tenors and Dave's bass trombone)
 - any LSO recordings with Denis Wick, principal (Conn 88H) or Ian Bousfield (Conn 88H ?)
 - 'ET' soundtrack with Lloyd Ulyate, principal (Bach 12); or most any LA studio film score recordings (mix of horns, from small Bach's and King's to Conn 88H's)
 - Vancouver Symphony Orchestra (when they had Gordon Cherry and Greg Cox playing Conn 88H's, and Doug Sparkes playing a Conn bass trombone)

(*..a thought... most of the world has been listening to 'orchestral music' through film scores recorded mostly in LA over the last 80 years. Most of those years the horns were all .495, .500, .508, .509, .525 in size. Only in recent years has there been a demand for 'large bore' horns (.525 or larger). Some of the most 'moving' music in the world has all been created with small or medium bore horns and their inherent sounds.)

 

'Most musically moving' classical/art music soloists sound (live or recorded):

 - Miles Anderson (Bach 12); Ian McDougall (King 2B+); Jim Pugh (Edwards .500); Ed Neumeister (King 3B); Christian      Lindberg (Conn 88H); Ronald Borror (Conn 88H, Bach 36B); Glenn Ferris (King 3BF)


'Most musically moving' show/pit players:

 - Bruce Eidem, NY (Bach 36); Jack Gale, NY (Bach 36), or all the many fantastic players in NY that have used King 3B's or Bach 16's and 12's


'Most moving' live/recorded sounds of miscellaneous styles that I've had the pleasure of hearing:

Urbie Green, NY (King 2B, Martin)
James Pankow, "Chicago" (King 3B, Yamaha 691)
Sam Burtis, NY (various small/med horns)
Birch Johnson, NY (Bach 12)
Keith O'Quinn, NY (Bach 16?)
the late Jerry Johnson, Toronto (King 2B, 3B, Yamaha 697z)
Al Kay, Toronto (Yamaha 697z, King 2B, Yamaha 646?)
Russ Little, Toronto (King's, Yamaha 697z)
Nils Landgren, Sweden (Yamaha 500/525)
the late Bob Stroup, Edmonton (hybrid .500 horns)
the late Dave McMurdo, Toronto (Williams 6)
Bob Livingston, Toronto (King 2B)
Mark Nightingale, London (small Rath)


BEST SOUND EVER Award:   the late, legendary Dave Robbins (Williams 6).

(*true story....when Don Waldrop, the great LA studio bass trombonist was visiting Vancouver, he came to a recording session of 5 trombones/rhythm section and helped 'tonmeister'. Dave Robbins was playing lead. Waldrop said he'd heard of the legendary Dave Robbins' time in LA, but upon hearing him live, Waldrop said he's never, ever heard such an amazing trombone sound, except for maybe Tommy Pederson or Lloyd Ulyate. And he'd heard some pretty awesome LA trombone players in his time there, to be sure.)
Dave had played lead trombone in the Harry James Orchestra, did LA studio work, played everything possible in Vancouver,Canada. He had also played with Denver Symphony, US Presidents Marine's Own Band, and more.


I love this post.  One of my biggest "wow!!" moments came when I was doing a bunch of all day graduation gigs sitting next to the masterful Larry Farrell and Birch Johnson.  These were kind of mind-numbing gigs, as we were doing 3-4 ceremonies back to back, but it was a lot of fun to play quintet and brass ensemble with a lot of amazing players. Hearing Bruce and Larry's "legit" sound and concept was truly incredible and eye opening.  I remember sitting next to Birch and leaning just past his bell (we doubled up on parts and switched off, because 45 minutes of you-know-what can get pretty tedious....) and realized he was playing with the precision, nuance, and character as some of the best classical players I have ever heard, all at a beautiful MF and perfectly blended with the trumpets.  It was one of those eye opening moments that totally changed my concept of sound using my small instrument.  Larry was the same way - the concept of time, attack, and nuance on each note was incredible.  These are both truly amazing players, and none of what I'm saying means that people who player larger horns can't do that, but they play the equipment they do for a reason.  It was a different experience.

I'm not going to get into any sort of debate about .547 vs smaller instruments - there is a time and a place for every size horn, or course.  I just wanted to share this experience as it opened my eyes to the type of nuance achievable on a small horn.  It's quite a different than nuance on a larger instrument, and is something still under the radar at a lot of schools, imo.  
Logged

bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2065

View Profile
« Reply #59 on: Feb 15, 2017, 04:44PM »

To repeat a few observations again, from my years of study under Remington students:

Remington used the .547 88H because everyone was expected to play EITHER tenor or bass at Eastman. Nobody was going to specialize for a very simple reason: There were NO auditions. NONE. Gigs were by appointment. Personnel managers would call Remington and ask him to send a few students if they were ready.
You played a casual interview/audition. If you were selected you THEN bought a tenor or a bass.

Nobody studied jazz at Eastman because it was an education major school. You went there to become a school teacher usually. If you wanted to play jazz you went to New York City...and played jazz. Or sunk. Boom. End of the story. You didn't need an Ed. Degree for NYC to eat you alive.

You went to Eastman and stayed there until you had a M.Mus. to avoid the draft and avoid having your a** blown off in Viet Nam.

***
My garbled thought processes about The Chicago sound and Friedman?
Who cares what bell and mouthpiece Friedman uses if any job in Chicago only opens up every 30 or 55 years. If you're reading this, you're not practicing or gigging, and YOU won't get a gig anyway.

What I'd really like to see?
A .515 bore tenor trombone with an F attachment of .525 that you bought ONCE and played for 50 years. In community groups.
As it now stands?
You buy a .547 horn. You don't get a gig. You quit. You're frustrated.

There is a corresponding comment about the jazz world that goes with the term "Legit"-- if you are in a room of wildly different temperatures that you are used to you grab and A from the pianist, adjust for room temp and say loudly : "Close enough for jazz."

A lot of truth in this thread.
The longer you play the more truth you read in this thread.

Logged
Stan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: Mar 2, 2003
Posts: 495

View Profile
« Reply #60 on: Feb 16, 2017, 03:53AM »

...You buy a .547 horn. You don't get a gig. You quit. You're frustrated.

A lot of truth in this thread.
The longer you play the more truth you read in this thread.


I thought about this all night long.  I studied with a Van Haney student, and Van Haney was a Remington student.  For four years, I was made to feel like my sound just wasn't good enough because it wasn't big enough, dark enough, had too much brightness, etc.  When I graduated and started actually teaching in schools, I didn't have nearly enough time to practice, and so the dual-bore 88H with an open leadpipe I'd played while practicing 4+ hours a day in college just got bigger and bigger and bigger.  I finally decided I just wasn't ever going to be a "good" player, because I didn't sound like my teacher had wanted me to sound, and I sold the horn and picked up something smaller (a Bach 36C) from a forum member.

10 years later, I'm still playing that Bach 36 with a 6.5-sized mouthpiece, and I'm getting called to play everywhere that's NOT a symphony orchestra.  Giving up the moose-horn, moving to something smaller, and embracing MY sound let me be a musician first and a trombonist second.  In the real world, I've never had any problems with blend or carrying power using a smaller horn.  I work less and I get a bigger sound for my effort. 

My point is that I absolutely think universities do a disservice to trombone players by pushing the idea that they MUST have a .547" tenor.  If anything, the "jazz" horn is the optional horn in most trombone studios, and that's just screwed up thinking.  Why are we shaping our students to be symphony players on big equipment when THAT'S the specialization.  Playing in community bands, brass bands, brass quintets, and the entire jazz universe are what's common, and all of those things work better on a smaller horn.

I used to think it was because manufacturers didn't offer decent medium-bore trombones, but that's no longer true.  So I think the real crux of this thread isn't WHY NOT use smaller trombones in orchestras, but instead WHY use large-bored instruments in anything BUT a 70+ piece orchestra?

Stan
Logged
Pre59

*
Offline Offline

Location: Devon UK
Joined: May 26, 2015
Posts: 367

View Profile
« Reply #61 on: Feb 16, 2017, 03:59AM »

Maybe it's time to look outside of the US for ideas in tbn manufacture. Smaller bores, ("smaller"and not small.. ) tone rings, heavier bells, possibly unsoldered, etc etc.
My K+H which IS a small bore, plays bigger than any 2B that I've owned, and that's not to say that I'd recommend it for orchestral work, but I find it interesting to see how manufacturers elsewhere, especially in the countries where much of the orchestral repertoire originated approach this topic.
Logged
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2065

View Profile
« Reply #62 on: Feb 16, 2017, 04:41AM »

Stan, I also studied with Van Haney students and I studied with Van Haney for a bit. He taught for almost 50 years I would say. He taught A LOT.

Don't convince the trombonists to change- convince the committees and other musicians to accept a different sound. ( Here is the dirty secret that you and I already know, Stan, it is THE SAME SOUND. STILL a trombone. Well, duh!)

Now. Spend another sleepless night considering the repertoire of the modern symphony orchestra. Possibly 90% of their repertoire. Written in a period of not much longer than 50 years, no more than a day of horseback riding from Vienna.

Now-- do some more "sleepless math." To my ears the height of big band jazz happened with the Blanton-Webster version of the Duke Ellington Orchestra in about 1940, about 75 years ago. Go back from 1940 for another 75 years and you're into the 1860s and 1870s.

Things do change. But they do change slowly. And they will change.
Logged
cmillar
*
Offline Offline

Location: Toronto
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 314

View Profile WWW
« Reply #63 on: Feb 16, 2017, 06:29AM »


What I'd really like to see?
A .515 bore tenor trombone with an F attachment of .525 that you bought ONCE and played for 50 years. In community groups.
As it now stands?
You buy a .547 horn. You don't get a gig. You quit. You're frustrated.


A lot of truth in this thread.
The longer you play the more truth you read in this thread.



In the 'community band' scene (at least in North America) you do have all these trombone players hanging onto their .547 horns and playing in community bands, either because they're still 'hoping to get that big gig in the sky', or else they've just never been exposed to people playing different horns (other than what their teacher or band leader made them play in university or college.)

Trouble is, most community players don't play at a professional level and don't stay in shape well enough to really do justice to a .547 bore horn.

Result... they sound terrible, unfocused, out of shape, don't have any range, poor articulations, and they sound like a euphonium/tuba section instead of a trombone section.

Does that inspire the audience? No.
Does that make someone (who knows what trombones can and should sound like) want to arrange or compose for a community band? Not in my case.

I've had to decide against writing for a couple of 'community groups' in different places I've lived because the musical result just isn't worth all the composing/arranging time you put in to write music.

Ever heard a community group play a Sousa March on a section of large bore horns and stir the audience into a frenzy? Really? You have to be in a military/service band getting paid to play all day to sound halfway decent in most concert band music on large bore horns. The players have to be on top of their game and in shape.... and, they have to be very musical to pull it off.

Point being... yes, why not use smaller/medium bore horn if you're not in the exclusive huge orchestra scene? Please! You can stay in shape, have more fun, have a better trombone sound, and even please an audience (or, an arranger/composer who wants to hear a real trombone sound in his music!)

British Brass Bands have the right idea. Nimble trombone playing from equipment that is meant to be nimble. (...unless there'a a current trend in England towards lugubrious horns in brass bands?) Something for North America community concert bands to learn from. There's a lot of great concert band music that requires 'nimbleness'.... Gershwin medlies, John Williams medlies, Holst Suites, Sousa, etc.

Nothing worse than hearing out of shape, part-time trombone players on large bore horns in a concert band.

Just doing my part to 'stir up the pot'!
Logged

harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2104
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #64 on: Feb 16, 2017, 06:45AM »

So.... if the reason you are against using a large bore is because, for whatever reason, you don't practice and you have no endurance to play equipment that is too big (the aforementioned 88H with dual bore .547-.562 slide), then it makes sense to use something like a 36B to teach kids. But if you are trying to teach at a college level to students who want to win jobs, it would sound like an excuse.

I think that the dual bore (ie .547-.562) tenors and the so called "chicago style" tenors with single bore bass slides have taken it too far. I was issued a chicago tenor and it is beyond difficult to play, not because I don't practice, but because it's so diffuse!

However, saying that pushing large bore tenors is wrong because they are too much to handle is ridiculous. The classic 88H with a 5G mouthpiece is very reasonable. You can even use the .525-.547 slide on that and it works very well.

Using amateur bands as examples to support the use of small bores isn't very relevant since the OP wanted to know about their use by professionals.
Logged

Tone it up.
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - Griego 1A ss
3B/F Silversonic - DE XT106, C+, D3
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
BillO
Trying to be better.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 1978

View Profile
« Reply #65 on: Feb 16, 2017, 07:09AM »

For some reason comments like:

Quote
Does that make someone (who knows what trombones can and should sound like) want to ...

bother me.

What are trombones supposed to sound like?  Really?

Most of the orchestral music and even solo works for trombone were written by people that had an entirely different sounding instrument in mind than anything we have today.  I can assure you Mozart was not thinking of a Bach 16 or a Conn 6H when he wrote his famous requiem.  Beethoven was not thinking of those horns either either when he wrote his 5th symphony.  Even my Conn 2H, which I am sure most of you would not agree as sounding 'like a trombone should' has far too modern a sound when compared to the hardware of 200 years ago.

I can certainly agree that Beethoven and Mozart were not thinking about the sound of a Conn 88H either.  However, the sound of the trombone has evolved, and the sounds made by large bore instruments are just as valid a part of that evolution as any other type of modern trombone.

I wonder if the trombonists of 200 years ago were whining about the 'modern' trombone of that time not sounding like a sackbut?  Probably  Yeah, RIGHT.
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
bonenick

*
Offline Offline

Location: Bulgaria
Joined: Nov 29, 2016
Posts: 576
"Life is change. Growth is optional. Choose wisely."


View Profile WWW
« Reply #66 on: Feb 16, 2017, 07:10AM »

But if you are trying to teach at a college level to students who want to win jobs, it would sound like an excuse.

I guess that also depends on the jobs they are aiming at. At college I was aiming a symphonic trumpet gig....at present play very random symphonic gigs...it would have been useful I wasn't that "focused".
Logged
cmillar
*
Offline Offline

Location: Toronto
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 314

View Profile WWW
« Reply #67 on: Feb 16, 2017, 11:49AM »

Just saying that a good trombone sound has some 'life' in it.

Whether it's big bore, small bore, medium bore, sackbut, alto, etc.

So, it's incumbent upon all of us that know what a good trombone sound is (from probably being fortunate to have played with, studied with, and heard great trombone sounds) to never 'settle for less' in our own teaching and musings about music.

That's it...let's not settle for life-less sounds.

There's enough lame music and attitudes in the world. Let's not contribute to it as trombone players!

People have to play whatever horn suits the gig. It's up to the conductors, music critics, fellow musicians, arrangers, composers, teachers, etc. to help keep up the standards of 'life in music'....otherwise, we might as well resort to more software-sample based brass libraries even more and more. It's not always a matter of budget. Sometimes, you get a better sound with a great sample library!

So, let's cheer for live music with 'life' in it!
« Last Edit: Feb 17, 2017, 11:54AM by cmillar » Logged

Edward_Solomon
Vintage trombone aficionado

*
Offline Offline

Location: London, UK
Joined: Nov 9, 2001
Posts: 1830
"Freelance semi-pro bass/contrabass trombonist"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #68 on: Feb 17, 2017, 04:35AM »

I still use smaller bore instruments in orchestral performance. There is a clear reason for doing so, especially when it comes to French music, which cries out for a lighter approach that doesn't come easily with large bore instruments.

Both British and French music before 1950 requires smaller bore instruments and the difference when you hear it is enormous. Listen to pre-1950 performances of Elgar, for example, and the strikingly incisive quality of the brass is quite a contrast to the more restrained Germanic sound we have accustomed to hearing, even though it is anathema to what the composer would have heard and wanted.

I occasionally use a set of these trombones for British works, swapping the G bass for a third tenor in French music:

Olds Standard tenor and B&H Imperial G/D bass trombones

I also use German Romantic trombones, which make a very different sound from modern instruments. They pair a medium or small bore slide with a large bell to produce a remarkably suave, warm sound, which retains the same timbre throughout all dynamics. They are very well suited to repertoire that requires this very disciplined approach (and which is notoriously more difficult with modern instruments), e.g. Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Brahms, Schumann, Mendelssohn.


German E♭ alto, B♭ tenor, and B♭/F tenorbass trombones


German E♭ alto, B♭ tenor, and F bass trombones

The greatest problem in using smaller bore instruments in the modern orchestra is the tendency to blow them too hard. The entire approach to dynamics has to be reviewed and recalibrated. They can work very well in a concert orchestra in the right hands and produce arguably better results in context than large bore instruments. Little wonder that orchestras such as that of the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, indulge in the use of smaller bore instruments for 19th century French and Italian opera due to the lighter texture that results.
Logged
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2065

View Profile
« Reply #69 on: Feb 17, 2017, 04:59AM »

Ed,

   Your points are entirely correct. And proven by decades of satisfied concert goers continuing to support the ensembles the historically accurate instruments perform in.

But there is one glaring omission: Where do the students of today find these instruments to prepare themselves to play on? Once again the .547 trombone will likely be the only instrument prepared by a candidate to audition for a job in one of these ensembles. And there is the problem.

A NEW middle ground has to be provided for the student of tomorrow.
Logged
MoominDave

*
Offline Offline

Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 2943

View Profile
« Reply #70 on: Feb 17, 2017, 05:58AM »

British Brass Bands have the right idea. Nimble trombone playing from equipment that is meant to be nimble. (...unless there'a a current trend in England towards lugubrious horns in brass bands?)

The tenor trombones in use in British brass bands tend to be unanimously 88H or equivalent .547", and have been since the 70s/80s. Bass trombone the usual .562".

Though these tend to be played with quite a bit of 'crackle' to create tonal contrast, the sound is a long way from what it was in the days of peashooters.
Logged

Dave Taylor

(me, not the other one)
John the Theologian
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 16, 2013
Posts: 418

View Profile
« Reply #71 on: Feb 17, 2017, 07:42AM »

I knew George Krem when he was the trombone teacher at the University of Iowa and also principal trombone in the Cedar Rapids Symphony.  George related to me that the section would make decisions about the equipment used.

When they played Beethoven's 5th, for example,George played 1st on alto, the 2nd used a small bore and the 3rd used a large bore tenor.  George said that this gave a more authentic sound.

Of course, he also told me that the whole section would play into the stands during rehearsal and then play normally during performances.  He said that the conductor-- a string player-- never caught on. :)  That allowed them to take advantage of the wonderful acoustics of the Paramount Theater that the CRS played in.

The bottom line is that perhaps more symphony sections should be that flexible.
Logged
Stan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: Mar 2, 2003
Posts: 495

View Profile
« Reply #72 on: Feb 17, 2017, 07:42AM »

But there is one glaring omission: Where do the students of today find these instruments to prepare themselves to play on? Once again the .547 trombone will likely be the only instrument prepared by a candidate to audition for a job in one of these ensembles. And there is the problem.

A NEW middle ground has to be provided for the student of tomorrow.

And I think that's the crux of the issue.  Why do so many players use large tenors in classical settings?  Because their teachers demand that they buy large tenors in college.  I ask again, why is the small bore tenor the specialty horn in trombone studios across the land and the large-bore "tenor" the standard?  How many people in music education programs want to be orchestral trombonists?  How many high school players looking for a new horn want to be orchestral trombonists?  If somebody, somewhere, had said to me at 20, "Here.  Buy this Bach 36.  You'll play it for 30 years in all kinds of different idioms and it will fit right in.  It won't take as much air, as much daily practice, or as much effort to make a GREAT sound," then I would have said OK, bought it, and practiced on it.  Why doesn't that conversation happen more with our students?  
Logged
MikeBMiller
Best trombone player on my street.
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Sep 18, 2009
Posts: 957

View Profile
« Reply #73 on: Feb 17, 2017, 10:44AM »

I think it goes even beyond college. I was trying to sella Yamaha YSL 356 last Spring and a friend of mine who plays trombone and teaches at a local HS basically told me that the band director there, who is also a trombone player (or was anyway) makes his kids buy large bore horns to play in the HS band, which I think is just nuts. I have watched these guys practice marching band occasionally and they have kids marching with Bach 42s.
Logged
Matt K

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 6548

View Profile WWW
« Reply #74 on: Feb 17, 2017, 11:10AM »

And I think that's the crux of the issue.  Why do so many players use large tenors in classical settings?  Because their teachers demand that they buy large tenors in college.  I ask again, why is the small bore tenor the specialty horn in trombone studios across the land and the large-bore "tenor" the standard?  How many people in music education programs want to be orchestral trombonists?  How many high school players looking for a new horn want to be orchestral trombonists?  If somebody, somewhere, had said to me at 20, "Here.  Buy this Bach 36.  You'll play it for 30 years in all kinds of different idioms and it will fit right in.  It won't take as much air, as much daily practice, or as much effort to make a GREAT sound," then I would have said OK, bought it, and practiced on it.  Why doesn't that conversation happen more with our students?  

It depends on your definition of a 'great sound.'  My large bore Shires sounds great, I wouldn't ever trade it for a Bach 36. Because it gives me the sound I want. I very much dislike the Bach 42 marching band section. But that 'problem' is very much the exception to just about every middle and school I've been to throughout the PA, WV, nothern VA, and MD regions where a full 90% of the students are on an assortment of YSL354s and $100 Wal-Mart horns.  In both the universities I went to, most of the students weren't interested in learning commercial or jazz idioms and, for them, the music they did play was done 'best' from their perspective on a large bore instrument. So why was the small bore horn considered the specialty horn? Because it was a specialty to the students.
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2065

View Profile
« Reply #75 on: Feb 19, 2017, 09:08AM »

MattK,

You haven't quite given us all the information we require to fully understand your reply.

Did you fully try the .525 Shires trombones before you chose to purchase a .547 version?
Have you owned a Bach 36, or spent appreciable time on any .525 horn, for comparison purposes?
Did you have any second opinions as you play tested horns, before buying a .547 Shires, as to what sounded best while you played?
What sound concept are you personally chasing? Is is ONLY a replication  of another player of a .547 trombone?


************
Stan,
 Upon further reflection, based on your own observations, Van Haney might indeed be the culprit. He won both principal in Philadelphia, auditioning for that job on a Conn 70H. And he won second in New York again auditioning on a Conn 70H.
For the record, when he won both jobs in that miracle week in 1946, even the principal trombonist of the NY Phil Mr. Pulis, only owned one horn and one mouthpiece-- a .522 bore straight Conn.

( Van Haney had to play Pulis' smaller Conn later to prove he could blow a tenor for a committee......there were ZERO .547 horns for sale in New York City in 1946. ZERO)

So, in '54 Remington needed a face to sell, and the chops to blow, to determine the characteristics of a new 88H, and cough up a mouthpiece to match. Calling Van Haney! Van Haney did both. And just like kids today use Joe Alessi as the template for everything they do, thousands of kids adulated Van Haney as what was possible on an 88H. If you worked hard enough you could play in the NY Phil! Or Philadelphia!
Logged
Matt K

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 6548

View Profile WWW
« Reply #76 on: Feb 19, 2017, 09:40AM »

MattK,

You haven't quite given us all the information we require to fully understand your reply.

Did you fully try the .525 Shires trombones before you chose to purchase a .547 version?
Have you owned a Bach 36, or spent appreciable time on any .525 horn, for comparison purposes?
Did you have any second opinions as you play tested horns, before buying a .547 Shires, as to what sounded best while you played?
What sound concept are you personally chasing? Is is ONLY a replication  of another player of a .547 trombone?


************
Stan,
 Upon further reflection, based on your own observations, Van Haney might indeed be the culprit. He won both principal in Philadelphia, auditioning for that job on a Conn 70H. And he won second in New York again auditioning on a Conn 70H.
For the record, when he won both jobs in that miracle week in 1946, even the principal trombonist of the NY Phil Mr. Pulis, only owned one horn and one mouthpiece-- a .522 bore straight Conn.

( Van Haney had to play Pulis' smaller Conn later to prove he could blow a tenor for a committee......there were ZERO .547 horns for sale in New York City in 1946. ZERO)

So, in '54 Remington needed a face to sell, and the chops to blow, to determine the characteristics of a new 88H, and cough up a mouthpiece to match. Calling Van Haney! Van Haney did both. And just like kids today use Joe Alessi as the template for everything they do, thousands of kids adulated Van Haney as what was possible on an 88H. If you worked hard enough you could play in the NY Phil! Or Philadelphia!

Yes, I played a 525 Shires for most of the year I spent in graduate school then moved to the other extreme of playing the same bell section with a 562 slide for the better part of half a year. I switched to a 508/525 as well for another six months after I decided not to pursue a career full time. At that point, I picked up a TW47G slide and about six months later swapped it out for the slide I currently have on that bell section: a T47LW.  Each time I had switched equipment, I had several players that I had been actively playing with for at least two months, and in the case of this final slide for several years, listen to me (and actually swap the slides for me so I wouldn't know what I was playing).

At various times I've owned a Bach 36, 36B, YSL645, 3BF+, YSL446, and King 607F.  Actually, the horn I played the longest at this point is that YSL446 before switching to a Xeno 8820 my junior year of HS.  I played the 446 for the better part of 7 years during development and was quite glad to switch to the Xeno when I did. Ultimately the Xeno wasn't for me, but there weren't many options where I lived (new Bach 42, Conn 88, or Xeno basically) - bearing in mind this internet thing was still fairly new and there wasn't that much activity going on even if I would have known other things existed. The Xeno was an order of magnitude easier for me for the things that I used it for, and now when I compare other's Xenos, my current Shires setup is an order of magnitude easier than the Xeno. Obviously my impresion is not universal or nobody would play a Bach 36 and in reality its quite popular. I remember Ron Baron coming to my university and sounding quite good on his, in fact, and it was clearly his choice to use it since it meant carrying three horns with him on his tour.

Initially, I was chasing after a 1960s CSO sound when they were all on half-basses. As time has progressed, I stopped trying to emulate and that's what led me down the paths that I did.  I would pick something out and really love the sound of it. Then months down the road, I'd find something else that I'd like the sound of better. So on and so forth. I haven't done that in quite some time now though; around 2 years. Maybe I'll find something else that I like better later.  If that happens, then I'll switch again. Hasn't happened in awhile though.

As it relates to students: bear in mind most of what they do in universities (for better or for worse) is a large ensemble and a small ensemble, both of which exclusively play classical idioms probably most of the time.  Given that, I don't think its particularly surprising that there are so many exclusively large bore players and why small bore horns are the "specialty."
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2065

View Profile
« Reply #77 on: Feb 19, 2017, 10:53AM »

Thanks, Matt K. That is exactly the type of informed information we need in this thread. Lots of empirical evidence and evidence based on years of personal experience. Thanks for the clarification.

It might not contribute a lot to the thread now, but years from now a new crop of players will cough this thread up again. Thanks.
Logged
Stan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: Mar 2, 2003
Posts: 495

View Profile
« Reply #78 on: Feb 20, 2017, 09:49AM »

And in the spirit of coughing up stuff for the future, I'd like to present the following:

If you are a music education student, and you want to be a teacher or a businessman or an administrator or ANYTHING that isn't a trombonist in a symphony orchestra (or you teach such students!), there will come a time in your life that you can't practice 4 hours a day anymore.  There will come a time in your life where you might get in 4 hours a WEEK in practice.  And then, dear future students, when your time is short and your body is aging, you'll start to realize that your .547 tenor is an air hog that doesn't project well at quiet volumes and that lacks clarity at the mezzo-blah dynamic of the community band you'll be playing in.  And you'll wish you'd listened to that thread on TTF when these guys told you that smaller horns were easier to play.  Because yes, they're easier to play.

I've played professionally, semi professionally, and been the ringer in amateur groups for 15 years.  When I hung up my Pro hat, I got a .525 and ran with it.  It's not a solution for everybody, but I guarantee it's a solution for more than would like to embrace it.  I'm looking for a horn that I can ignore for a couple weeks at a time, pick it up, and hit a mf entrance that projects to the back wall with absolute clarity.  Just IMAGINE what modern orchestras would sound like if the heavy hitters played on horns like that.  Maybe we'd lose our reputation for killing viola players?

Stan
Logged
William Lang
*
Offline Offline

Location: New York City
Joined: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 131

View Profile
« Reply #79 on: Feb 20, 2017, 10:07AM »

honestly it's the pedagogy and not the horns.

nuance, depth, style, and character can be achieved on any instrument.
Logged
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: melbourne, australia
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 765

View Profile
« Reply #80 on: Feb 20, 2017, 10:32AM »

Yeah..... I dont agree with the idea that small bore trombones are "easier" to play at all. I think telling someone that small bores are easier to play is just as stupid as telling someone they will get a "fatter" sound with a bigger mouthpiece.

I agree, its the pedagogy, not your instrument. There will absolutely be some players that are suited to playing small bore more than large. If that is you, and on a smaller bore you can make a sound that impresses an orchestral panel, all the more power to you! That would be impressive. Personally I think that would be really hard to do for most players.
There are definitely players that find everything about bigger instruments easier to use. I am ine of them. Its one of the reasons i play bass. There are plenty of things on small bore trombones that I find incomparibly more difficult than large tenor or even bass.
Logged
greenbean
*
Online Online

Location: San Francisco
Joined: Dec 26, 2012
Posts: 1402
"Brass Kahuna"


View Profile
« Reply #81 on: Feb 20, 2017, 10:42AM »

...
There are definitely players that find everything about bigger instruments easier to use. I am ine of them. Its one of the reasons i play bass. There are plenty of things on small bore trombones that I find incomparibly more difficult than large tenor or even bass.

I am in this camp.  For me, everything is easier on bigger horns.  But I suspect that if I played only small- or medium-bore horns it would be fine.
Logged

--Bach 50B (1966), Marcinkiewicz Ernie Tack
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2104
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #82 on: Feb 20, 2017, 11:18AM »

It's getting pretty preachy from practice deprived preachers up in here.

I really think someone who is making the big bucks in an orchestra would have implemented the small bore for everything solution if it actually solved everything. But it only solves some things...

So that's why most trombonists getting paid real money use a variety of instruments. ...

And they usually use large-bore....

Because they are professionals and practice. ...

I have met a few teachers who do the Bach 36 thing because they do about 50/50 lessons between commercial and "legit" genres. But the one or two I know doing this still practice religiously and would opt for a large bore in a paid "legit" gig.
Logged

Tone it up.
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - Griego 1A ss
3B/F Silversonic - DE XT106, C+, D3
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2065

View Profile
« Reply #83 on: Feb 20, 2017, 03:47PM »

As usual Stan is 100% correct. Thanks, Stan.

This thread will benefit from a bit of context-
As most ( if not all) modern students are brow beaten into owning .547 horns, there are very very few used .525 or smaller horns left used to purchase.

If fewer .547 horns were sold, and more smaller horns sold (over the past 50 years) there would be more quality smaller horns to be found used. And more of them would find their way into the hands of professionals and their students. Their PROFESSIONAL students as it were, because if you never get a full time paid position you then remain a student of the horn.

A second important point: Horns are expensive. Regardless of whether a professional ( semi-pro especially) chooses to play a smaller horn--- if they bought ONE horn, just one, a .547 horn, they have to play the s*it out of it for everything. Because they spent a small fortune on their spanking new .547 boutique horn-- and they can't admit they made a mistake, or really wanted to play a smaller horn. Because they can only afford ONE boutique horn. ( I know these players. Personally.)

I really liked Stan's thought that it takes 4 hours a day, minimum, to stay in top shape on large gear-- large for a tenor, or large for a bass. And there is a very very small window for any player top enjoy the LUXURY of consistent practice.
Eventually just try and tell a spouse you need 4 or more hours a day to yourself to work on something you just haven't quite mastered yet. See where that gets you. And if you should have children? Children cost money, time and effort.

Think about that nice tiny 25 year span when you have to steal time to even get a decent shower for yourself while kids are being raised.
Four hours a day to practice? And another 4 hours on TTF keeping up with the peanut gallery here? That's a full time job,a full time job without a cent coming in to feed spouse or family.

Read the bios of a lot of the posters here-- either unemployed wanna-bes, or the retired and semi-retired whose kids have left and the trombonists now have the luxury to have a coffee and read the madness here.

Time to grab some more tea, myself.
Logged
DaCapo

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 23, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« Reply #84 on: Feb 20, 2017, 04:11PM »

My point exactly. Let's turn the wheel! Too many frustrated students, and too few MUSICIANS who play the trombone. If the TTF is not for hungry students who wanna learn and make a difference. Then who is it for really?...
Logged
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: melbourne, australia
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 765

View Profile
« Reply #85 on: Feb 20, 2017, 04:18PM »

As usual Stan is 100% correct. Thanks, Stan.

This thread will benefit from a bit of context-
As most ( if not all) modern students are brow beaten into owning .547 horns, there are very very few used .525 or smaller horns left used to purchase.

If fewer .547 horns were sold, and more smaller horns sold (over the past 50 years) there would be more quality smaller horns to be found used. And more of them would find their way into the hands of professionals and their students. Their PROFESSIONAL students as it were, because if you never get a full time paid position you then remain a student of the horn.

A second important point: Horns are expensive. Regardless of whether a professional ( semi-pro especially) chooses to play a smaller horn--- if they bought ONE horn, just one, a .547 horn, they have to play the s*it out of it for everything. Because they spent a small fortune on their spanking new .547 boutique horn-- and they can't admit they made a mistake, or really wanted to play a smaller horn. Because they can only afford ONE boutique horn. ( I know these players. Personally.)

I really liked Stan's thought that it takes 4 hours a day, minimum, to stay in top shape on large gear-- large for a tenor, or large for a bass. And there is a very very small window for any player top enjoy the LUXURY of consistent practice.
Eventually just try and tell a spouse you need 4 or more hours a day to yourself to work on something you just haven't quite mastered yet. See where that gets you. And if you should have children? Children cost money, time and effort.

Think about that nice tiny 25 year span when you have to steal time to even get a decent shower for yourself while kids are being raised.
Four hours a day to practice? And another 4 hours on TTF keeping up with the peanut gallery here? That's a full time job,a full time job without a cent coming in to feed spouse or family.

Read the bios of a lot of the posters here-- either unemployed wanna-bes, or the retired and semi-retired whose kids have left and the trombonists now have the luxury to have a coffee and read the madness here.

Time to grab some more tea, myself.

There are heaps of quality small bore trombones. I dont think that is an issue at all.

If you are not practicing, doesn't matter what size your horn is, you simply will not sound good. Sounding good takes time on any size trombone.

Sure there are plenty of posters who think they are more qualified than what they actually are, but there are also players who cannot be bothered regularly updating their bio on this site and who do not like talking about the professional auditions they have won.... I know I dont like bringing it up, and I have my reasons. Doesn't mean their opinions aren't valid. You pick and choose what works for you. I have read some garbage on here from posters who claim to have the bio to back up what they are saying, as well as gold from posters who have said something really insightful even though they are not professional.

The danger of the Internet is that its very difficult to gage tone over text, how someone interprets something that is said and how they intrepret it from text can vary wildly. Bonesmarsh, some of your posts come off very closed minded and almost aggressive. Im sure that is not your intention though.... enjoy your tea.
Logged
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 49849
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #86 on: Feb 20, 2017, 04:19PM »

My point exactly. Let's turn the wheel! Too many frustrated students, and too few MUSICIANS who play the trombone.

You and we are not in a position to "turn the wheel".  If you want a job in an orchestra you will need to pass an audition.  To pass that audition you need to play a large bore.  Once you have that job you can try to use whatever you think is appropriate.  If you are too radical for the orchestra, you will have to pass another audition at another orchestra.  It's the way of the world and you won't get any points for charging at the windmills.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
Steven

*
Offline Offline

Location: Bonistan, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 2286

View Profile
« Reply #87 on: Feb 20, 2017, 04:44PM »

Let's turn the wheel! Too many frustrated students, and too few MUSICIANS who play the trombone.

I don't  know what is meant by "too few MUSICIANS who play the trombone".  Conservatories are not hurting for trombone applicants.  When daughter was applying to conservatories, trombone and flute were the only wind instruments frequently requiring a prescreening recording before applicants got an audition. 


If the TTF is not for hungry students who wanna learn and make a difference. Then who is it for really?...

TTF is for anyone who finds it worth their time talking trombone with others who think it is worth their time.  Certainly plenty are hungry students who want to learn and make a difference. 
Logged

Steven Cangemi
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2065

View Profile
« Reply #88 on: Feb 20, 2017, 04:48PM »

Just to make sure I'm not really so far out of the loop as I think I am--I just checked the Yamaha website and there isn't a top level .525 horn from Yamaha. 35 years ago there were a pile of 6XX series bones in both .525 and .547. A few high profile European soloists began the wave toward the .525 Yamaha. They were fantastic horns. And even better players.

Now there are not comparable Xeno .525 models.
Does Conn/King still make a .525 bore horn anymore? I don't think so.

Once again, we're stuck with boutique .525s ( which cost the same as a .547) or a Bach, which is now considered an entry level horn.

I'm not trying to be close minded. I've just been playing long enough to see the beginning of a wave toward smaller bones completely smashed and buried in another 35 years of large bore horns.
For all of the benefits that an internet should give to a student, the one benefit reading print on a screen will never give a student is the opportunity to try and fail repeatedly in a reality world, where rehearsals and gigs are done in real time and played by live humans.
You can debate in print the merits of any horn-- but just take one to a rehearsal and see if anyone notices any difference.
Logged
DaCapo

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 23, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« Reply #89 on: Feb 20, 2017, 05:01PM »

Revolution!! :-0 Sing it! :D
Logged
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2104
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #90 on: Feb 20, 2017, 05:06PM »

Haha DaCapo. Is your teach still insisting you buy a large bore?
Logged

Tone it up.
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - Griego 1A ss
3B/F Silversonic - DE XT106, C+, D3
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
ChadA
*
Offline Offline

Location: Ohio
Joined: Jul 16, 2010
Posts: 294

View Profile WWW
« Reply #91 on: Feb 20, 2017, 05:56PM »

too few MUSICIANS who play the trombone.

I know the competition is tight, but for me, the statement above takes the cake for most absurd thing I've seen posted here in a good long while.  What a bunch of hogwash.  There is some stunning musicianship being displayed by trombonists in all genres on all size horns.  If you're not hearing any of this, then you're not trying very hard.
Logged

Chad Arnow, DMA
Bass Trombone, Dayton Philharmonic Orchestra
Assistant Professor of Trombone, University of Dayton
http://chadarnow.com/
http://go.udayton.edu/music
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: melbourne, australia
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 765

View Profile
« Reply #92 on: Feb 20, 2017, 06:03PM »

DaCapo,

If you feel so strongly about it then nothing you read here will convince you otherwise. I would love it if I heard about you in 10 years winning auditions and getting high level performance opportunities on a small bore trombone. And as I keep saying, I believe its possible, I just think it would take a LOT more work than you realise. But by all means, start the revolution. Practice hard and convince everyone that you are on to something that can really make a difference. Come back to this thread in 10 years and tell everyone how you went! If you are successful im sure it would be an inspiring story  :)
Logged
ChadA
*
Offline Offline

Location: Ohio
Joined: Jul 16, 2010
Posts: 294

View Profile WWW
« Reply #93 on: Feb 20, 2017, 06:35PM »

Before we get started, here's where I'm coming from.  I'm not trying to brag, just add context to my statements.  I'm a classically trained musician with degrees from a very good school.  I teach full-time at the university level.  I play in a professional orchestra, sub frequently in one of the top 10 orchestras in this country and play in several professional, classically oriented chamber groups.  I also sub in a couple of local big bands.  So everything I post is colored by my experiences and preferences and may not apply universally.  Your mileage may vary, see store for details, etc.  :)

I'd be very happy if some would stop painting with such a large brush. Some people seem to think all .547 horns sound the same (cue the "slide euphonium" quotes!:)).  So not true.  There is as much variety in .547 horns as any other size bracket, from light, nimble early-to-mid century designs to overly heavy, somewhat dull 1990s flavors that are less popular than they used to be (thankfully, in my opinion).  If you think a well-played Elkhart 88H with a Remington mouthpiece sounds like a late 1990s Edwards heavy setup, then you're not listening very closely.  Someone can sound tubbier on a .525 horn than a .547 horn if their approach to playing isn't properly put together.  People can sound perfectly light, colorful, and pleasant on .547 horns.  Some people, like me, sound better on .547 horns.  Some people, like me, generally prefer the kind of sounds that are most easily made on a .547 horn.  That's my opinion, which is just as valid as other opinions in this thread.

For classical music, the .547 sound spectrum has become the preferred one, with all the variety that comes from the diversity of .547 horns, meaning it's hardly as uniform and monolithic as some would have us believe.  No one measures bore at auditions, so no one will know if you have a .525, .547, or .562 slide.  They will know if your sound it outside of the expected range of norms.  So play what you sound best on.  Just play with a sound that fits modern orchestral concepts if you want a modern orchestral job.

My everyday tenor is a .547 horn.  My main bass is a .562/578 dual bore horn.  No, I don't practice 4 hours a day.  I don't have time for that.  :)  My tenor plays lighter and less tubby than previous horns I've owned.  I've downsized my bass over the years, too.  I know .562/.578 is huge for some people, but I used to have axial flow valves on there, a heavier bell, and a more open leadpipe.  Regular rotors, a lighter bell, and tighter leadpipe make the horn easier to operate without compromising my sound.  It works for me, but some people like bigger or smaller horns.  More power to them.  I also have an 8H with a .525/.547 slide that I'd take to an orchestral principal audition in a heartbeat.  Whatever works.

For my college students, their path and playing determine what horns I recommend.  For classical performance majors seeking a classical career, we're going to look hard at .547s since it usually yields the the type of sound that fits modern expectations.  I have yet to find a classical performance major who finds a .547 horn too big.  But if I had a classical performance major who sounded best on a .525, I wouldn't bat an eye at them buying it.  For ed majors, we'll still look at .547s since their ensemble directors expect a modern classical sound, but I'm open to other horns if it fits better, too.  As others have pointed out, teachers and other people who may not get to play every day might benefit from slightly smaller horns. Or not. Whatever works.

As long as our music education continues to focus on Western art music (dead Germans and Austrians primarily), the modern classical sound spectrum will be most easily achieved on .547 horns for most people.  All the .525 lovers need to keep in mind that at some point the world of playing was dominated by smaller horns than .525 and .525 was probably thought to be too big at some point.  :)  If the TTF existed in 1940s maybe we would have had .495 vs. .525 threads instead of .525 vs .547...
Logged

Chad Arnow, DMA
Bass Trombone, Dayton Philharmonic Orchestra
Assistant Professor of Trombone, University of Dayton
http://chadarnow.com/
http://go.udayton.edu/music
DaCapo

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 23, 2016
Posts: 93

View Profile
« Reply #94 on: Feb 20, 2017, 07:57PM »

Haha DaCapo. Is your teach still insisting you buy a large bore?
Nah, I told him purple Pbone or nothin...
Logged
Posaunus
*
Offline Offline

Location: California
Joined: Feb 20, 2014
Posts: 561

View Profile
« Reply #95 on: Feb 20, 2017, 08:57PM »


I really liked Stan's thought that it takes 4 hours a day, minimum, to stay in top shape on large gear-- large for a tenor, or large for a bass. And there is a very very small window for any player top enjoy the LUXURY of consistent practice.
Eventually just try and tell a spouse you need 4 or more hours a day to yourself to work on something you just haven't quite mastered yet. See where that gets you. And if you should have children? Children cost money, time and effort.



I know quite a few working professionals, who successfully make their living playing 0.547" bore trombones, who do NOT practice 4 hours/day to maintain their chops.  (a) They don't need to, and (b) they don't have time in their busy lives. 

I myself play a variety of trombones, small-bore to medium-bore to large-bore tenor to bass, and enjoy mixing them up - and find that it's just playing as much as I can (but certainly less than 4 hours/day) that keeps me in shape, not playing only my large-bore trombones. 
Logged
Pre59

*
Offline Offline

Location: Devon UK
Joined: May 26, 2015
Posts: 367

View Profile
« Reply #96 on: Feb 21, 2017, 01:03AM »


I'm not trying to be close minded. I've just been playing long enough to see the beginning of a wave toward smaller bones completely smashed and buried in another 35 years of large bore horns.


"One Trombone to Rule Them All", then?

 

Logged
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2065

View Profile
« Reply #97 on: Feb 21, 2017, 04:13AM »

ChadA,

 Your longer most recent post it thoughtful, well reasoned and shows a logical argument based on several decades of your own successes in your field.

But your argument also outlines the problem we're discussing here. Problem? Perhaps not a problem-- more likely a trend lasting some 65 years. You quite clearly write that you make the choice of instrument with the student. So, the student will always do what the teacher wants. Of course they will.
YOU recommend their instrument. And who will the student trust?-- their own inexperienced self, or a successful professional? End of that argument for "free will" given freely to the student.

It is a fallacy. The student is free to play whatever they choose as long as they are phenomenally successful with their choice. But if they know how to play already, then they are not a student. A vicious circle.

I tried the one-trombone-to-rule-them-all thing. I did buy a loaded Rath R3 with alternate lead pipes and the separate valve and the whistles and bells. I bought the yellow bell, instead of the red I adored and loved, because I needed a commercial horn.
   Well, my awakening came one day when I played a dixieland gig back to back with a dance job with a small jazz ensemble. I played the dixie strolling gig on an Olds Ambassador and the dance on my R3. I almost heaved from the effort of filling the R3 for three sets.
   I sold my R3.
 I kept the Ambassador.
I bought two more Ambassadors to cover my a**.

Why didn't I keep the Rath R3 for orchestral work? Because the orchestra I sub in has a principal who plays a Shires .547 42B clone. I wasn't allowed to. Harrumph. Here is a surprise-- that principal plays a Bach 36 a lot of the time and a smaller .508 Yamaha a lot of the time. His Shires was a GIFT and he has to trot it out to please the family who will ask why he isn't playing the expensive horn they bought him.
Logged
blast

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: scotland
Joined: Jul 26, 2001
Posts: 6810
"Bass/Contrabass trombone, Scottish Opera."


View Profile
« Reply #98 on: Feb 21, 2017, 05:59AM »

If you want to audition for an orchestra the default is, and has been for many years some kind of .547 bore tenor. That's it. End of. When you get past the audition you could be asked to play a smaller bore instrument... it's in our contract at the opera... we had a player trial on a Bach 16m and win the job.... just the rep he got. On the job people often play smaller gear to get nearer the sonic truth... more than 20 or 30 years ago...

Chris Stearn
Logged

Still cannot think of anything better to do. Back on an old 1 1/2G again !
Stan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: Mar 2, 2003
Posts: 495

View Profile
« Reply #99 on: Feb 21, 2017, 07:00AM »

@Chris

Precisely.  That's the world we live in.  The crux of this thread, however, is why do we live in that world?

I was a musicologist before I moved to administration, and I still connect the dots like this:

-Smaller bores were the standard everywhere EXCEPT Germany, where slightly larger bores and bells have been a norm since the turn of the 20th century.  Slightly larger.
-Remington and his students pushed the large bore tenor in the US.  As mentioned, a huge (disproportionate?) number of orchestral players took their training from Remington or his students.  That means they brought large-bore instruments into the orchestras.  That meant basses needed to get bigger too. 
-Conductors, orchestrators, and composers working in orchestras or training in conservatories became exposed to large-bore tenors as the norm, and began to expect those instruments as the norm. 

And that right there is why not small bore for "legit" or classical style playing.  A self-sustaining cycle of larger and larger instruments, bred in music schools and expected by conductors precisely because their training taught them to expect larger instruments.

The byproduct?  As a musicologist who specialized in earlier instruments, I can tell you fairly definitively that we have completely destroyed the concepts of brass balance and blend that every composer from Schutz to Stravinsky ever intended.  Most orchestral music written for a trombone was conceived for an instrument that makes very different sounds at very different dynamic levels than today's large bore tenors.  That's just a fact.  Better sounds or worse sounds?  That's totally subjective. 

Riddle me this:  Orchestras are typically smaller today than in 1905.  So why are the trombones so much bigger and capable of producing so much more sound than they were in 1905?

I will absolutely stand by my assertion that today's best trombone players make great sounds in spite of larger intruments, and not because of them. 
Logged
MrPillow
Organologique et plus!

*
Offline Offline

Location: Vermillion, SD
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 1477

View Profile WWW
« Reply #100 on: Feb 21, 2017, 07:19AM »

Blaming the situation on Remington and the 88H blatantly overlooks the tradition of large-bore instruments in American symphonic playing that had been growing since the late-1800s. It might be apt to say that Remington helped spread the influence of the American-style instrument through the 88H, but he was no fountainhead by any measure. The transition happened first in basses, with tenors following suit, and the trend was pretty well established by the time the 88H was introduced.
Logged

King 3B/F Silversonic - King 608F - Holton Paul Whiteman Model
ChadA
*
Offline Offline

Location: Ohio
Joined: Jul 16, 2010
Posts: 294

View Profile WWW
« Reply #101 on: Feb 21, 2017, 08:26AM »

But your argument also outlines the problem we're discussing here. Problem? Perhaps not a problem-- more likely a trend lasting some 65 years. You quite clearly write that you make the choice of instrument with the student. So, the student will always do what the teacher wants. Of course they will.
YOU recommend their instrument. And who will the student trust?-- their own inexperienced self, or a successful professional? End of that argument for "free will" given freely to the student.

It is a fallacy. The student is free to play whatever they choose as long as they are phenomenally successful with their choice. But if they know how to play already, then they are not a student. A vicious circle.

I make recommendations.  :)  They, their parents, and/or their loans make the decisions.   Good!

When someone asks you for a recommendation, don't you always start with what you prefer?  Most people recommend what they prefer; that's pretty natural.  I don't force students to do anything.  I don't lower their grades or kick them out of the studio if they pick horn B, C, or D when I might recommend A.  But whatever they choose needs to lead them down the path toward whatever level/type of employment they're seeking or they've wasted their money.  I encourage students to attend the state Music Educators convention and play every horn in the exhibit hall.  It's part of them figuring out what they like.  And just because they might decide on a .547 horn based on my recommendation doesn't mean they're stuck with it for life.  That's what gets lost in these discussions.  Just because a university professor recommends something it doesn't equate to a life sentence on that horn.  People should grow and develop enough over time as musicians to learn what they need.  When you figure out something doesn't work, change it.

Let's go outside of music for an analogy.  I'm a sedan guy.  If someone asks me for a generic car recommendation, I'll go sedan first.  I know sedans, I like sedans, they fit what I do and need.  Now if they tell me they want to haul tons of kids and cargo or go off-road, I'll change my rec.  I won't force them to buy a sedan.  If they buy something and later decide it doesn't fit them, they sell/trade it in and get something that works better.  Life moves on, people evolve and grow, and people's needs change. 

I try to be very careful not to force students into a particular horn.  In fact, I almost went to a particular university but changed my mind partially because one teacher wanted me to play a different horn and mouthpiece than what I'd auditioned on (and been accepted on and offered scholarship on).  It was off-putting to essentially be told I was good enough to get in but that my equipment (a very good Elkhart 88H at the time) wasn't "correct" in that teacher's opinion.  So I went somewhere where the teacher worked with what you had and have been better for it.

Play what works for you and whatever musical scenarios you seek.  :)
Logged

Chad Arnow, DMA
Bass Trombone, Dayton Philharmonic Orchestra
Assistant Professor of Trombone, University of Dayton
http://chadarnow.com/
http://go.udayton.edu/music
JohnL
Edge Monster

*
Offline Offline

Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 7045

View Profile WWW
« Reply #102 on: Feb 21, 2017, 08:33AM »

Blaming the situation on Remington and the 88H blatantly overlooks the tradition of large-bore instruments in American symphonic playing that had been growing since the late-1800s. It might be apt to say that Remington helped spread the influence of the American-style instrument through the 88H, but he was no fountainhead by any measure. The transition happened first in basses, with tenors following suit, and the trend was pretty well established by the time the 88H was introduced.
Not just trombones. You see it in other instruments, too. The rise of the French horns in the Kruspe Horner style (Conn 8D's and the like). Bigger tubas (Chicago York, anyone?). Remington was far from the first person to use a larger-bore trombone for orchestral playing. Gardell Simons was using an 8H in the 1920's.

There's an exhaustive discussion of the rise of the modern "symphony-bore trombone" in this thread:
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,19093.20.html

You want to popularize smaller-bore trombones for the orchestral rep? It's simple.
1) Get really good on a modern orchestral tenor.
2) Get a job as principal with a major orchestra.
3) Start playing you preferred smaller horn exclusively.
4) Take on a bunch of students and guide them toward playing smaller horns.
5) Have them win jobs with major orchestras playing those smaller horns.

I said it was simple. I didn't say it was easy.
Logged

Like the chicken says:
"You knew the job was dangerous when you took it."
Stan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: Mar 2, 2003
Posts: 495

View Profile
« Reply #103 on: Feb 21, 2017, 08:45AM »

Blaming the situation on Remington and the 88H blatantly overlooks the tradition of large-bore instruments in American symphonic playing that had been growing since the late-1800s. It might be apt to say that Remington helped spread the influence of the American-style instrument through the 88H, but he was no fountainhead by any measure. The transition happened first in basses, with tenors following suit, and the trend was pretty well established by the time the 88H was introduced.

Bryan, I concede the trend but not the standard.  The general increase in trombone sizes in American orchestras had as much to do with the German(ic) musicians playing German and German-inspired instruments than some general taste for a larger instrument.  I think the standardization of the large tenor as the "orchestral tenor" has a pedagogical underpinning.  Remington didn't invent the large bore tenor, but he went a LONG way towards standardizing it.
Logged
savio

*
Online Online

Location: Norway
Joined: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 4950

View Profile WWW
« Reply #104 on: Feb 21, 2017, 08:46AM »

I don't have a clue about this but in the history is there any that use say a Bach 36 as the main horn? Or won an audition on it?

Leif
Logged

Bass Trombone - Conn, Holton
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 49849
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #105 on: Feb 21, 2017, 09:05AM »

I don't have a clue about this but in the history is there any that use say a Bach 36 as the main horn? Or won an audition on it?

Leif

Sure.

Jacob Raichman played principal in the Boston Symphony on a Bach 36.  Hansotte, his 2nd, played a Conn 8H with F.  Johannes Rochut (Principal in the 1920s) played an even smaller instrument.

There is a famous picture of the Boston Symphony Orchestra trombone section of around 1910 showing the three of them with Holton-made German style trombones.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
bonenick

*
Offline Offline

Location: Bulgaria
Joined: Nov 29, 2016
Posts: 576
"Life is change. Growth is optional. Choose wisely."


View Profile WWW
« Reply #106 on: Feb 21, 2017, 10:06AM »

You want to popularize smaller-bore trombones for the orchestral rep? It's simple.
1) Get really good on a modern orchestral tenor.
2) Get a job as principal with a major orchestra.
3) Start playing you preferred smaller horn exclusively.
4) Take on a bunch of students and guide them toward playing smaller horns.
5) Have them win jobs with major orchestras playing those smaller horns.

I said it was simple. I didn't say it was easy.

It's like winning a trumpet audition with a Monette. It's not going to happen. But that doesn't mean that you should never use one when you get a good grip on your principal position.
Logged
MikeBMiller
Best trombone player on my street.
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Sep 18, 2009
Posts: 957

View Profile
« Reply #107 on: Feb 21, 2017, 01:31PM »

I played my .525 horn when I got called to sub in the local symphony in December. Nobody knew or cared, but I felt like a little bit of a rebel inside.
Logged
Steven

*
Offline Offline

Location: Bonistan, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 2286

View Profile
« Reply #108 on: Feb 21, 2017, 02:47PM »

I played my .525 horn when I got called to sub in the local symphony in December. Nobody knew or cared, but I felt like a little bit of a rebel inside.

Were you playing first or second?  What was on the program?
Logged

Steven Cangemi
Gabe Langfur

*
Offline Offline

Location: Boston, MA, USA
Joined: Apr 9, 2000
Posts: 4887

View Profile WWW
« Reply #109 on: Feb 21, 2017, 04:32PM »

Blaming the situation on Remington and the 88H blatantly overlooks the tradition of large-bore instruments in American symphonic playing that had been growing since the late-1800s. It might be apt to say that Remington helped spread the influence of the American-style instrument through the 88H, but he was no fountainhead by any measure. The transition happened first in basses, with tenors following suit, and the trend was pretty well established by the time the 88H was introduced.

It was always my understanding that Remington advocated the 88H because it could pass as a bass trombone well enough that his students didn't need to specialize right away. Ray Premru, after all, went through Eastman as a tenor trombonist, then went to London and won two auditions - London Philharmonic 2nd trombone and Philharmonia bass trombone - on his 88H. Then got himself a bass trombone after accepting the Philharmonia job.

Incidentally, I've always wondered this...does anybody know what bass trombone Ray played before 1963 when the Holton 169 was introduced? If I understand the chronology correctly, he had about 5 years in the Philharmonia job by that time. I know he didn't like Conn basses, and maybe that was the result of struggling with one during that time.
Logged

Gabe Langfur
Bass Trombonist
Rhode Island Philharmonic
Vermont Symphony
Rodney Marsalis Philadelphia Big Brass

Trombone Faculty
Boston University
Kinhaven Music School
Wellesley College

S. E. Shires Artist
MikeBMiller
Best trombone player on my street.
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Sep 18, 2009
Posts: 957

View Profile
« Reply #110 on: Feb 21, 2017, 06:48PM »

Were you playing first or second?  What was on the program?

2nd. Lots of Christmas music. I have a Rath R3 slide with R4 8.5 bell and large shank lead pipe. The only way you would know it's not 547 is with some calipers.
Logged
Jhereg

*
Offline Offline

Location: Touring
Joined: Jun 12, 2009
Posts: 298

View Profile WWW
« Reply #111 on: Feb 21, 2017, 08:00PM »

What about a Williams?

Just something I've been wondering lately and then this thread came up in my feed. People who have played/heard a Williams .500, do you think a horn like that could make it through an orchestral audition? It does have that big sound...
Logged

"Passion is born from earnestness.
Miracles have value precisely because you cause them."
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 5832

View Profile
« Reply #112 on: Feb 21, 2017, 09:10PM »

I could see playing a 3B/F once in a while, depending on the program. I did play my .525 on a few concerts when I played principal last year. But, I also love the sound of my .547 Shires in the orchestra. It's all good.
Logged
JBledsoe
*
Offline Offline

Location: Destin, FL
Joined: Aug 20, 2004
Posts: 1789

View Profile WWW
« Reply #113 on: Feb 21, 2017, 10:30PM »

If one is going to try an squarely blame Remington for the standardization of the large bore trombone in the American school of trombone playing, then perhaps we should also blame him for putting out scores of remarkable players during his time at Eastman as well. We should also blame him for a pedagogy which has thrived in one way or another for well over 40 years past his death.

I studied with Ralph Sauer for 5 years. He never pushed the 88H on me, and he also commented once that Remington never pushed the 88H on any of his students. More often than not, the students simply gravitated that direction.

I like Chris Stearn's summation of the current orchestral climate.

If you want to change the way things are done in the trombone community, it doesn't start with the lowest people on the totem pole. If you're a student, amateur, administration, etc. you're not in a position to change the status quo. Want to change things? Prove that you're able to be a consummate  musician on anything you're holding in your hand, win that big orchestra job, start putting out a fleet of successful musicians, and THEN start trying to initiate a paradigm shift.

As an aside, if you assert that someday you will not have 4 hours a day to practice and thus cannot create a beautiful sound on a large bore instrument, then you're spending those 4 hours now focused on the wrong things. A beautiful sound is not about effort.

If you're working hard, you're doing it wrong.
Logged

Josh Bledsoe
Presidio Brass
Missouri Symphony Orchestra
Principal Trombone

-----------------------
www.JoshBledsoe.com
Posaunus
*
Offline Offline

Location: California
Joined: Feb 20, 2014
Posts: 561

View Profile
« Reply #114 on: Feb 21, 2017, 10:55PM »


A beautiful sound is not about effort.

If you're working hard, you're doing it wrong.


 Good!
Logged
Stan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: Mar 2, 2003
Posts: 495

View Profile
« Reply #115 on: Feb 22, 2017, 07:31AM »

If one is going to try an squarely blame Remington for the standardization of the large bore trombone in the American school of trombone playing, then perhaps we should also blame him for putting out scores of remarkable players during his time at Eastman as well. We should also blame him for a pedagogy which has thrived in one way or another for well over 40 years past his death.


I don't think blame is the right word here.  As I noted, good and bad are subjective.  Physical dimensions are not.  If you want to know why, in 2017, that sub-.525 horns aren't the standard anymore in American and European orchestras, then Remington and his students are clearly at the center of the pedagogical movement that shaped the modern trombone sound. 

I still maintain that most players that sound great on large tenors do so because they sound great, and not because the bigger trombones help them.  Ralph Sauer, who Josh mentioned, moved to a smaller instrument because it required less work to get the sound to the back of hall.  He sounded amazing on his LP recordings with an 8H.  He sounds amazing on his .525 and .525/.547 horns.  But I bet he'd admit that a beautiful sound with less effort is always a worthy goal. 
Logged
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 5832

View Profile
« Reply #116 on: Feb 22, 2017, 08:46AM »

It takes work to make it sound easy. At least in my experience.
Logged
blast

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: scotland
Joined: Jul 26, 2001
Posts: 6810
"Bass/Contrabass trombone, Scottish Opera."


View Profile
« Reply #117 on: Feb 22, 2017, 09:13AM »

It takes work to make it sound easy. At least in my experience.

Sounding easy feels easy... but you're right... it takes a lot of work... a LOT... and a few days off and it's gone....
Logged

Still cannot think of anything better to do. Back on an old 1 1/2G again !
MoominDave

*
Offline Offline

Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 2943

View Profile
« Reply #118 on: Feb 22, 2017, 09:24AM »

Perhaps a good analogy would be balancing on a tightrope? The mission is to not go wrong - which, when one has the skill down pat, feels easy because the considerable under-the-surface learned precision is being deployed near instinctively. When one doesn't, it suddenly feels very hard, and the consequent growth of self-doubt makes things even worse.
Logged

Dave Taylor

(me, not the other one)
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2104
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #119 on: Feb 22, 2017, 09:36AM »

So wait... if I switch to the Ralph Sauer dual bore I still have to put in work each day? That can't be right based on what I'm reading here.

Rats!
Logged

Tone it up.
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - Griego 1A ss
3B/F Silversonic - DE XT106, C+, D3
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 5832

View Profile
« Reply #120 on: Feb 22, 2017, 09:38AM »

There's no free lunch.
Logged
Stan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: Mar 2, 2003
Posts: 495

View Profile
« Reply #121 on: Feb 22, 2017, 09:45AM »

So wait... if I switch to the Ralph Sauer dual bore I still have to put in work each day? That can't be right based on what I'm reading here.

Rats!

I don't think anybody's saying that, even jokingly.  But it's a fact that it takes a different energy requirement to play a larger instrument.  It's not a free lunch, but it is a reduced-price lunch. 
Logged
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2104
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #122 on: Feb 22, 2017, 10:06AM »

I don't think anybody's saying that, even jokingly.  But it's a fact that it takes a different energy requirement to play a larger instrument.  It's not a free lunch, but it is a reduced-price lunch. 

Why is it so much harder to play well on a small bore then? It might take less air but it takes considerably more concentration and finesse.
Logged

Tone it up.
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - Griego 1A ss
3B/F Silversonic - DE XT106, C+, D3
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
Dukesboneman

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sarasota, Fl
Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 1334

View Profile
« Reply #123 on: Feb 22, 2017, 10:43AM »

I recently retired from Teaching and we moved to FL. I`ve since been asked to play in a very good Trombone Quartet and a large Brass Ens.
For the first time in years I have a need for a Large Bore horn. For years I didn`t own one because, I didn`t need one.
Now that I`m older (and hopefully wiser) I GET how to play a larger horn. In college and beyond I could never really get into playing .547 horns.
I had a lot, a couple good 88H`s , 8H, 42. 42B and a Benge 190. They were all good horns but I couldnt do them justice.
Now I bought 4 months ago a used 42BO. It`s looks like hell but plays like a dream .
I now understand Jay Freidman`s comment on how he plays that huge set-up . (and I paraphrase) "I play it like it`s a small bore horn".
I now don`t approach the larger horn any differently that the smaller horns and it works for me
Just my 2 cents
 
Logged

RETIRED
fsgazda

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dover, Delaware, USA
Joined: Jan 30, 2002
Posts: 855

View Profile WWW
« Reply #124 on: Feb 22, 2017, 10:50AM »

When talking about getting an exciting sound it's often more about thickness/weight of the bell than bore size.
Logged

Associate Professor of Music, Delaware State University, Dover, DE.
Bimmerman
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 170

View Profile
« Reply #125 on: Feb 22, 2017, 10:54AM »

For grins, a few years ago I brought both my 16M and my Edwards to a local youth symphony rehearsal that hired brass/woodwinds for concerts. I switched from the large horn to the Bach about halfway through, and switched back a few minutes later; the sound was all wrong from the section. I personally preferred playing the smaller horn and the conductor didn't seem to care, but the section sound was just not right.
Logged
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2104
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #126 on: Feb 22, 2017, 11:06AM »

When talking about getting an exciting sound it's often more about thickness/weight of the bell than bore size.

Or even more likely, the approach of the musician playing the instrument.
Logged

Tone it up.
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - Griego 1A ss
3B/F Silversonic - DE XT106, C+, D3
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
bonenick

*
Offline Offline

Location: Bulgaria
Joined: Nov 29, 2016
Posts: 576
"Life is change. Growth is optional. Choose wisely."


View Profile WWW
« Reply #127 on: Feb 22, 2017, 11:49PM »

Or even more likely, the approach of the musician playing the instrument.

Nobody can argue with that. No instrument will make or break a musician. The argument here, as far as I can see is about timbral colours and shapes. Nobody wins an orchestral audition with a small bore trombone. That's a standard. The question is, whether the timbres and colours that can be naturally created with a small bore tbone can be use adequately in symphonic/opera settings.
Logged
MoominDave

*
Offline Offline

Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 2943

View Profile
« Reply #128 on: Feb 23, 2017, 01:46AM »

The question is, whether the timbres and colours that can be naturally created with a small bore tbone can be use adequately in symphonic/opera settings.

Oh, we know the answer to that: yes, they can. At professional level they were in the past, and sometimes are today. Various pro sections (particularly in chamber orchestras) these days use equipment downsizing to good effect, which is a trend I like the results of and motivation for.

The question that's being debated here seems to be more along the lines of "Can we conceive of smaller equipment thriving in the larger settings to the point where it starts to command a market share that starts to rival large bores?", and "Can we <ditto> to the point where it ceases to be a disadvantage in audition situations?".

So, much of this is obvious and/or already said in this thread, but I'll offer my answer:

The basic difficulty is that a smaller instrument in a large bore section has challenges tonally matching. If you come in on 2nd trombone with something smaller, how well does the section sound work the first time you lay out a big fortissimo together? 1st bone has more scope to downsize without upsetting the balance, higher in the chord as they are.
One could imagine a scenario where if enough 1st trombone players started playing medium bores as their go-to equipment, then 2nds and basses would go down to match. But we're a long way from that culturally.

I am not a professional player. Sure, people give me money to parp regularly, but I don't seek it out, and it isn't my income. Proper pros have significantly greater consistency in their playing, because they have to. But still, I ask myself what I do with my fixing hat on... I fix for quite a decent brass band (the other two trombonists are music college graduates), and fix low brass for various amateur orchestral situations, centring around the upper available end of the 'I play for them because the music's good and the standard isn't terrible' level. And I must say that I am contributing to the status quo in what I do - players that I know will show up with smaller equipment I will book carefully to suit repertoire. I need a 2nd trombone for some Mahler to sit between an 88H and me on my bass? I'm not going to book the player who always brings a King 3B or even a Bach 36, no matter how technically accomplished and musically sensitive they are. I need a tenor player of either flavour to go to a brass band contest with a piece that's a big modern blow? Ditto, even more so. The blend/balance won't be what's expected.

What I will do is, when the opportunity musically arises, discuss possibilities of downsizing the whole section together. But very often individual players will veto such suggestions, preferring the familiarity of their regular instruments. I think we will be comfortably enjoying our large bore trombone sound culture for a while yet. I rather hope to live to see the next change, but I'm in my late 30s now, and the landscape is only minorly changed from what it was when I was learning to play as a child. This equilibrium seems relatively stable.
Logged

Dave Taylor

(me, not the other one)
Edward_Solomon
Vintage trombone aficionado

*
Offline Offline

Location: London, UK
Joined: Nov 9, 2001
Posts: 1830
"Freelance semi-pro bass/contrabass trombonist"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #129 on: Feb 23, 2017, 02:18AM »

I'll second that, Dave.

I've been fixing for various amateur London orchestras for longer than I care to remember now. I do have the luxury of suggesting which instruments would work well in different repertoire situations and given that the vast majority of those occasions involve either a small or concert orchestra, possible with a chorus, it goes without saying that smaller instruments are often well suited to that performance situation. Not for the first time, out will come either two B flat tenors and a G bass or the German set of ATB trombones (either B flat/F or F bass), as these are particularly well suited to use in the smaller orchestra (though the German trombones will work well even in a large orchestra).

It's horses for courses. Some modern, full-time, professional orchestras (e.g. London Philharmonic, Royal Opera House) will downsize as the repertoire demands. Ultimately it's down to the section and the conductor. Unfortunately, the large bore trend set in mainly because of conductors in the jet-set age expecting the same results everywhere they went, while before that (we're talking pre-WWII) conductors didn't have that luxury, so even orchestras such as the Concertgebouw were able to use the G bass regularly.
Logged
Pre59

*
Offline Offline

Location: Devon UK
Joined: May 26, 2015
Posts: 367

View Profile
« Reply #130 on: Feb 23, 2017, 02:50AM »


Unfortunately, the large bore trend set in mainly because of conductors in the jet-set age expecting the same results everywhere they went, while before that (we're talking pre-WWII) conductors didn't have that luxury, so even orchestras such as the Concertgebouw were able to use the G bass regularly.


In the last 40 years there's been a convergence of sound and styles going across all musics to making everything sound uniform, and orchestras certainly haven't been excluded. If so many orchestras sound similar, it's going to be ever more difficult to justify their funding, and ultimately their existence.

Is this smaller bore a Brit thing?
Logged
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2065

View Profile
« Reply #131 on: Feb 23, 2017, 04:26AM »

Yes, market share. Money talks.

A friend has played a prototype Rath R5. .543 bore slide. Not .547. Supposedly it was an attempt to capture the best qualities of a Conn 88H that mimicked a Bach 36. My Eastman trained prof always said that the closest horn to a Conn 88H , that was a non-Conn, was a Bach 36B.
Why didn't the Bach 36B rival the 88H? Because the Elkhart 88H was superior in every way.
Valve pull to bE, more ergonomic slide, and a sound to die for.

The Rath website still lists the R5 leadpipe as an option to purchase. It was designed for a lost .543 bore horn. The beginning of a lost trend.

Take note that the commonly available red brass Rath bell Conn-clone 845 isn't there any more.
Another experiment that market share devoured.

At one point tenors were smaller. The King Symphony designed for the Cleveland Orchestra was .536/ .546...but it played huge because it was a clone of  a German trombone and had a 9" bell, so numbers and specs don't account for much.
Logged
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2104
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #132 on: Feb 23, 2017, 04:32AM »

.543 vs. 547...? .004" difference? That's still a .547 tenor built imperceptibly out of spec.
Logged

Tone it up.
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - Griego 1A ss
3B/F Silversonic - DE XT106, C+, D3
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
MoominDave

*
Offline Offline

Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 2943

View Profile
« Reply #133 on: Feb 23, 2017, 05:07AM »

It's a fifth of the way between 547 and 525. Subtle, but I'd expect to feel that.

Btw, by "market share", I meant the fraction of players playing smaller stuff; I wasn't talking about fashions driving development priorities, although that's an interesting topic in itself.
Logged

Dave Taylor

(me, not the other one)
LX

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles
Joined: Jan 12, 2005
Posts: 735

View Profile
« Reply #134 on: Mar 09, 2017, 02:43AM »

I have brought in a small tenor to play first on some orchestral works. Chavez Symphony #2 goes sailing up to a high E on a solo. Much easier on a smaller horn.

I like the idea of other orchestral rep on small tenor. Even some alto parts work nicely on small tenor, if you get a nice sound on the horn.

You have to PRACTICE small bore horns!! Too many people think of the small tenor as a "jazz" horn. It can be and tends to be more popular in those idioms but listen to Charlie Loper, Jim Pugh, Miles Anderson and others and you will hear a great sound. Period. And it's a sound that is refined and just as "legitimate" as a great big tenor sound.

The late Byron Peebles asked then LA phil conductor Zubin Mehta to go out in the hall to hear Byron play a few different instruments for feedback. Byron played a series of excerpts and solos on a Bach 42, a Conn 88h and a Bach 36.

Mehta chose the 36. Hands down.
Logged

"Perfection is a achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Edward_Solomon
Vintage trombone aficionado

*
Offline Offline

Location: London, UK
Joined: Nov 9, 2001
Posts: 1830
"Freelance semi-pro bass/contrabass trombonist"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #135 on: Mar 09, 2017, 03:06AM »

I'll be doing a strange combination of works in little over a week's time. The orchestra has programmed Strauss Till Eulenspiegel and Debussy Images in the same concert and they demand very different styles of sound and approach. Trombones have all agreed to switch from large bore TTB instruments in the Strauss to small bore TTT for the Debussy. The difference in sound is tremendous.
Logged
JohnL
Edge Monster

*
Offline Offline

Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 7045

View Profile WWW
« Reply #136 on: Mar 09, 2017, 07:48AM »

At one point tenors were smaller. The King Symphony designed for the Cleveland Orchestra was .536/ .546...but it played huge because it was a clone of  a German trombone and had a 9" bell, so numbers and specs don't account for much.
Not just a 9" flare, but a generally larger instrument all the way back through most of the neckpipe.
Logged

Like the chicken says:
"You knew the job was dangerous when you took it."
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [All]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: