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The Trombone ForumCreation and PerformancePerformance(Moderator: BGuttman) Why not the small bore for "legit" or classical style playing?
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BGuttman
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« Reply #20 on: Feb 14, 2017, 07:33PM »

Of course. How else could you interpret that?  :D

As in one trombone on each lip :-P :-P
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« Reply #21 on: Feb 14, 2017, 08:49PM »

Weren't the tenor trombones with F attachments during the romantic period relatively large bore?

In any case, it's not a macho thing. Some of it has to do with recordings getting louder and louder. Some of it has to do with how easy it is to sound great on a large bore.

Don't go making waves now hahaha
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« Reply #22 on: Feb 14, 2017, 09:00PM »

Trombones with F-attachments during the Romantic Era were also fairly rare.  In most cases they were used as bass trombones.  The idea of everybody using an F-attachment instrument is relatively recent.  When I was in High School most of us had straight tenors and only the 3rd trombones got the F-attachments.
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« Reply #23 on: Feb 14, 2017, 09:08PM »

I've always understood the term 'legit' to have originated in the jazz community as a pejorative term to denote the stereotype of the snooty classical musicians who have little respect for other art forms. But I don't have a source for that.
In this context I'd think you'd be source enough Matt.

Prejudice in music is the same as prejudice anywhere, and judgement is in the eye, ear and mind of the beholder.

I agree with your assessment.  And it leads to more than a little disappointment.  I've always hoped to believe that musicians, as artists,  have had wider scope of acceptance than is normal for the average of the general populace.  Simply because of our appreciation of the art.
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« Reply #24 on: Feb 14, 2017, 09:14PM »

Vocal style and uniqueness needs to be cultivated so long as it is competativeto win "legit" jobs, and competition for said jobs is all playing large-bore.
???

'There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy'.

Just sayin' Harrison...
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« Reply #25 on: Feb 14, 2017, 09:17PM »

I've always understood the term 'legit' to have originated in the jazz community as a pejorative term to denote the stereotype of the snooty classical musicians who have little respect for other art forms. But I don't have a source for that.

Never heard this used as a put down....Players of all colors will say "so and so is a great legit player" or "he plays very good legit as well as jazz."  I don't believe it to be pejorative at all.  Might have originated in a time when jazz was forbidden to be played/practiced at conservatories, but I have never heard this used as a put down.  In what context have you heard this as an insult?  
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« Reply #26 on: Feb 14, 2017, 09:24PM »

Is the third trombone really that bridge to the tuba? I think if they actually intended to make a bridge between the two they would probably put it euphonium in between

The Euphonium is usually a solo instrument where it is specifically scored.  Bass/3rd trombone does actually seem to be a bridge between the trombones and the tubas.  Not quite but frequently, when playing with a 'trombone bass/3rd' part I'm playing scores that in part double with the tubas.  Sometimes I'm actually asked to play tuba parts!!!
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« Reply #27 on: Feb 14, 2017, 09:39PM »

... Some of it has to do with recordings getting louder and louder. Some of it has to do with how easy it is to sound great on a large bore.
Is it that large bores are 'louder', or is it that they are 'fuller'.  I'd be willing to take bets on that.  I think the issue is how you define louder, by what the audience hears, or by what you mic 9" from the bell.

Don't go making waves now hahaha
What me?  Make waves?  Pffft, I'm not known around here as having a contrary opinion, am I???? Hi
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« Reply #28 on: Feb 15, 2017, 05:10AM »

A few points, gleaned from reading of TTF over the decades, and I am thankful for it as a resource to fill in huge gaps in all of our collective knowledge:

Probably 100,000 posts on TTF relate to Jay Friedman or the Chicago Symphony sound.
Likely principal trombonists of major symphony orchestras turn out many hundreds of times their own numbers as students with qualifications to fill the teacher's chair properly-- or they should be prepared-- once they have a M.Mus. Shouldn't they?

And so, the question!
Q:Who was the U.S. president when Friedman was hired by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra?
A: John F. Kennedy

Q: Who was the president of the United States when Friedman was appointed principal trombone there?
A. Lyndon B. Johnson

And so, for 56 years that chair in the Chicago Symphony has NOT been up for audition, or open for a new player.

My question-
Are we, as trombonists doing OURSELVES, any favors by chasing something obsolete since 1961? Can't we try something new? Can't we try something new?
It is NOT just Chicago. Now, go down to your local record store and look on the album jackets and see if you can identify any of the trombones or trombonists on the latest recordings of a Mahler symphony. Oh, wait........ no record stores left. No recordings left.
Sorry. This was a wasted post. Please forget it.
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« Reply #29 on: Feb 15, 2017, 05:37AM »

For me it is a question of getting the job done as best as possible. Sometimes I would really like to have a smaller horn for a movement of a symphony or when I am playing soli with woodwinds, other times I want a horn that can blend down into the low brass... a large bore horn does this job for me well enough, sometimes I have to work more to get the exact sound I want but it all comes out balanced in the end.

In terms of changing horns, it is a nice idea in my opinion but not always possible. I have to play performances of Tchaikovsky Pique Dame, Berg Lulu and Ravel Bolero this week. If I had three horns for thr three works I would be going crazy. I use my (large bore)horn and play the best I can.
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« Reply #30 on: Feb 15, 2017, 06:01AM »

???

'There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy'.

Just sayin' Harrison...

What I was saying is that TEACHERS, referred to by the OP, do students no favors in the performance world as far as auditions for legit jobs go, as mentioned by the OP, by saying:

"Nahhhh, you're right. Forget about getting a largebore tenor, young freshman. You know best a nd we're gonna cultivate that unique sound!"

For more creative music? Say, at Berklee? Sure.
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« Reply #31 on: Feb 15, 2017, 06:24AM »

A few points, gleaned from reading of TTF over the decades, and I am thankful for it as a resource to fill in huge gaps in all of our collective knowledge:

Probably 100,000 posts on TTF relate to Jay Friedman or the Chicago Symphony sound.
Likely principal trombonists of major symphony orchestras turn out many hundreds of times their own numbers as students with qualifications to fill the teacher's chair properly-- or they should be prepared-- once they have a M.Mus. Shouldn't they?

And so, the question!
Q:Who was the U.S. president when Friedman was hired by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra?
A: John F. Kennedy

Q: Who was the president of the United States when Friedman was appointed principal trombone there?
A. Lyndon B. Johnson

And so, for 56 years that chair in the Chicago Symphony has NOT been up for audition, or open for a new player.

My question-
Are we, as trombonists doing OURSELVES, any favors by chasing something obsolete since 1961? Can't we try something new? Can't we try something new?
It is NOT just Chicago. Now, go down to your local record store and look on the album jackets and see if you can identify any of the trombones or trombonists on the latest recordings of a Mahler symphony. Oh, wait........ no record stores left. No recordings left.
Sorry. This was a wasted post. Please forget it.


You are right..... I think it is a bit of a wasted post. Your point is not clear. At least, not to me.
No recordings left? What does that mean? We have easy access to more recordings from around the world more than ever.
I dont understand your point with Chicago. There are distinct differences of sound between major orchestras not just around the world but in America. The New York Phil record a very different Mahler to Chicago. If you cant hear that, you simply aren't listening hard enough.

Cant we try something new? You mean play small bore trombones in orchestral settings? Its been done. As i said earlier in the thread, its still being done by some. Its not popular, but for good reason I think. As I said earlier, some people can do it and sound great! Most can not.
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« Reply #32 on: Feb 15, 2017, 06:24AM »

Is it that large bores are 'louder', or is it that they are 'fuller'.  I'd be willing to take bets on that.  I think the issue is how you define louder, by what the audience hears, or by what you mic 9" from the bell.

Right but you need to remember that it's a recording as a whole. Everything is getting louder with a cleaner signal on recordings across all genres. Recordings are very much realer than real and recreate a performance that never happened.

Now imagine you grew up listening to those same recordings, you've got the job in the orchestra, and you know the audience probably just listened to the program on Naxos before coming so they can be "educated listeners". In many cases in this context a small bore trombone will disappoint you, the orchestra, and the audience. The audience may not even know why, but they likely will think that something was off.
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« Reply #33 on: Feb 15, 2017, 06:27AM »

It's entirely possible to use a small or medium bore trombone in some orchestral settings, but you have to be very comfortable with it, and it's honestly not appropriate all the time.

For example, Toby Oft of the Boston Symphony is using a Bach 36 for some things these days - Bolero and other French repertoire, for example. I've been at a concert where Jay Friedman and Mick Mulcahy used old small bore instruments for Bolero. I was at another CSO concert where they used those small bores and Charlie played a large bore tenor on the third part of Symphonie Fantastique.

I've played a couple of programs with a guy named David Loucky, who freelances in the Nashville area and teaches at Middle Tennessee State, where he played a Mt. Vernon Bach 8 and I played my 70H. The 2nd trombone players in each case played large bores (actually one was a .525-.547 dual bore with a large shank mouthpiece) but with very focused sounds. We were in an orchestra with a very small but excellent string section and were playing earlier Romantic repertoire - Schubert and Brahms. It worked great; we were able to play with a real dynamic range without having to worry about overbalancing. In bigger repertoire David plays a 42B. I've played other concerts with him where he played a 36B. David is a special player who is very comfortable on all his trombones (and euphonium, and ophecleide, and bass trombone, etc. etc.).

I would like to see this more often, and we're starting to talk about it in one of my orchestras.
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« Reply #34 on: Feb 15, 2017, 06:29AM »

I guess it all depends on the orchestra, the conductor and the work in question.

Some orchestra are so set to certain type of sound and certain equipment (this is not only about trombones - think trumpets - rotary or pistons, certain type of horns etc...Many gravitate around a rounder, darker sound and certain type of visual conventions (they hear with their eyes). Unless you play in Vienna Philharmonic, I don't think it is a big deal.

If you do something out of the ordinary, but it sounds OK, just pretend that you are using the most traditional equipment on earth - most of the time it will work.
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« Reply #35 on: Feb 15, 2017, 06:31AM »

I'm going to blame a specific teacher:  I think this is Emory Remington's fault. 

Slightly OT, but bass trombonists seem to suffer periodic existential crises because their horns are just really big tenor trombones and it's an underdeveloped instrument and it's a makeshift instrument, etc etc.  Wick and Kleinhammer were talking about that in the 70s and 80s.

But Remington has a great deal to do with the popularization of the .547 bore, F-attachment "tenor" as the standard sized "tenor" in classical playing.  And a lot of that was likely practicality.  Remington's students, armed with their Bb/F instruments, could go forth and audition for any open trombone position in every orchestra.  Those were often attached to teaching positions.  Thus, those teachers pushed 88H style instruments to their students, and so on.  The trombone that kept showing up in the orchestra was a large-bored "tenor" instrument with an F attachment.  This necessitated getting a bigger bass trombone, and here we are.

How many of Remington's students ended up in orchestras and teaching at universities?  Lots of them.  How many of the Chief's students ended up playing jazz professionally?  I can't think of a single one. 

Big band sections today, with horns hovering around .500 and a larger-bored bass, look like orchestra and band sections looked 100 years ago.

I'm all for a return to smaller equipment on tenor trombones in legit settings; they're easier to play!

Stan
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« Reply #36 on: Feb 15, 2017, 07:16AM »

Here are are my 'sacrilegious' thoughts and observations (coming from me, a legit/orchestrally trained musician who has spent most of my career playing 'commercial, jazz, shows, rock, latin, etc. styles of music, with some great orchestral playing opportunities along the way. I've had great players as teachers, heard great players in all styles, and stand by what I say.)

(By 'best', I refer to the most 'life in the sound', the most inspiring blend of overtones, the most musicality for the given musical style, the most 'moving' to the audience (most of whom don't give a crap about what kind of trombone is being played, and are just using their ears)


My list of what 'moves' me and continually inspires: (I don't really know the rest of the world's players that much, except through recordings or live concerts as noted)



Most 'musically moving' orchestral sounds I've heard:

 - a NYC section of Jim Pugh, Ed Neumeister, and Dave Taylor. (2 small/medium bore tenors and Dave's bass trombone)
 - any LSO recordings with Denis Wick, principal (Conn 88H) or Ian Bousfield (Conn 88H ?)
 - 'ET' soundtrack with Lloyd Ulyate, principal (Bach 12); or most any LA studio film score recordings (mix of horns, from small Bach's and King's to Conn 88H's)
 - Vancouver Symphony Orchestra (when they had Gordon Cherry and Greg Cox playing Conn 88H's, and Doug Sparkes playing a Conn bass trombone)

(*..a thought... most of the world has been listening to 'orchestral music' through film scores recorded mostly in LA over the last 80 years. Most of those years the horns were all .495, .500, .508, .509, .525 in size. Only in recent years has there been a demand for 'large bore' horns (.525 or larger). Some of the most 'moving' music in the world has all been created with small or medium bore horns and their inherent sounds.)

 

'Most musically moving' classical/art music soloists sound (live or recorded):

 - Miles Anderson (Bach 12); Ian McDougall (King 2B+); Jim Pugh (Edwards .500); Ed Neumeister (King 3B); Christian      Lindberg (Conn 88H); Ronald Borror (Conn 88H, Bach 36B); Glenn Ferris (King 3BF)


'Most musically moving' show/pit players:

 - Bruce Eidem, NY (Bach 36); Jack Gale, NY (Bach 36), or all the many fantastic players in NY that have used King 3B's or Bach 16's and 12's


'Most moving' live/recorded sounds of miscellaneous styles that I've had the pleasure of hearing:

Urbie Green, NY (King 2B, Martin)
James Pankow, "Chicago" (King 3B, Yamaha 691)
Sam Burtis, NY (various small/med horns)
Birch Johnson, NY (Bach 12)
Keith O'Quinn, NY (Bach 16?)
the late Jerry Johnson, Toronto (King 2B, 3B, Yamaha 697z)
Al Kay, Toronto (Yamaha 697z, King 2B, Yamaha 646?)
Russ Little, Toronto (King's, Yamaha 697z)
Nils Landgren, Sweden (Yamaha 500/525)
the late Bob Stroup, Edmonton (hybrid .500 horns)
the late Dave McMurdo, Toronto (Williams 6)
Bob Livingston, Toronto (King 2B)
Mark Nightingale, London (small Rath)


BEST SOUND EVER Award:   the late, legendary Dave Robbins (Williams 6).

(*true story....when Don Waldrop, the great LA studio bass trombonist was visiting Vancouver, he came to a recording session of 5 trombones/rhythm section and helped 'tonmeister'. Dave Robbins was playing lead. Waldrop said he'd heard of the legendary Dave Robbins' time in LA, but upon hearing him live, Waldrop said he's never, ever heard such an amazing trombone sound, except for maybe Tommy Pederson or Lloyd Ulyate. And he'd heard some pretty awesome LA trombone players in his time there, to be sure.)
Dave had played lead trombone in the Harry James Orchestra, did LA studio work, played everything possible in Vancouver,Canada. He had also played with Denver Symphony, US Presidents Marine's Own Band, and more.


What's the point of my musical musings?

Well, large bore horns are pretty over-rated when it comes to people thinking they 'can serve all musical purposes.' Large bore horns have their time and place, as do small bore horns.

Oh yeah...WORST SOUND EVER Awards go to:

- any Jazz bands that have sections consisting of entirely large-bore horns.











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« Reply #37 on: Feb 15, 2017, 08:42AM »

Despite wether large bore is easier to play or small bore. Wouldn't it be cool if the top custom trombone designers actually focused time on a making a small bore horn with an f attachment designed for the major symphonic and commercial repertoire? I mean there's just a big gaping whole in the mainstream between these small and large bores. More often in these settings don't we balance with the trumpets and horns? So is it logical in terms of balance and integrity to do things like, balance out the orchestra and diversify the timbre of the section. With so many incredible players who are able to play so well on a small bore with an incredible sound, I just think it is wrong to limit their ability to commercial jazz when the small size fits them well no matter what they play. So as a community there needs to be a demand in the market for these kind of horns (orchestra small bore) and the incredible sound concept they present. Large bore horns are amazing, and we all know that.... But to have a whole section of them,is a little off-putting. Considering the history of our music we play and the characteristic sound they were looking for when writing for the lead Tenor Trombone. It can't be the dead straight standard anymore. I don't think we're doing our beloved instrument as a whole any justice.
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« Reply #38 on: Feb 15, 2017, 08:59AM »

First, Shires makes a nice 0.508" trombone and they have an F-attachment for it.  Apparently smaller bore instruments don't do so well in modular, so the smaller horns are not modular.

Second, if you are playing the higher trombone parts an F-attachment is not necessary.  In the "bad old days" they would offer a whole step or half step "trill valve" (still offered on some alto trombones).

You want to use a small bore in symphony?  Have at it.  But you need to play the large bore to win the audition; after that you can use what helps give the guy in front the sound he's looking for.

Denis Wick introduced the 88H into England to help replace some VERY small bore instruments used in English orchestras at the time.  They had a rather funny sound -- I think the term "piercing" would describe it.  The 88H coupled with a Bb/F large bore bass made the sound much more pleasant.
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« Reply #39 on: Feb 15, 2017, 09:29AM »

Before I get started, I will recognise that my following post is intended to rip your post to shreds. You are a "trombone major and professional", so I don't feel bad doing it. I also have the feeling that this topic was prompted because your teacher told you to use certain equipment and you don't want to. Posting huge responses full of baseless claims and false info where you claim to speak for the whole community justifies the following response:

Wouldn't it be cool...

Here we go...

...if the top custom trombone designers actually focused time on a making a small bore horn with an f attachment designed for the major symphonic and commercial repertoire?

Uh oh... wait, what?

Come on Shires! You need to focus more time into your .525 line of instruments!



And stop making those small bore (.490 - .508) bore trombones with the same options. And the T25 medium bore slide. Not enough time was focused on that.



Shame on you, King. You need to focus more time on your .508 bore 3B/F which has been around since the 60s.



Shame shame, Bach. The 36B just doesn't cut it.

I mean there's just a big gaping whole in the mainstream between these small and large bores.

False. See above.

More often in these settings don't we balance with the trumpets and horns?

Very easy to do on large bore instruments. Have you played in an orchestra before or listened to any professional orchestra recordings?

So is it logical in terms of balance and integrity to do things like, balance out the orchestra and diversify the timbre of the section.

Huh?

With so many incredible players who are able to play so well on a small bore with an incredible sound, I just think it is wrong to limit their ability to commercial jazz when the small size fits them well no matter what they play.

Who? Who is an amazing jazz player who actually wants to play in an orchestra? Of that short list, who wants to do so on their jazz horn? The above is completely fabricated and just an idea you think is the case.

So as a community there needs to be a demand in the market for these kind of horns (orchestra small bore) and the incredible sound concept they present.


As a "Trombone major and early professional", you should only speak for yourself. Where is this demand? Are you calling upon the brass community to demand these instruments? It already exists. It's a small specialty demand.

Large bore horns are amazing, and we all know that.... But to have a whole section of them, is a little off-putting.

Have you ever heard an orchestra before? "I'm sorry [insert any major orchestra section here] ... but your section playing is just off-putting."

Considering the history of our music we play and the characteristic sound they were looking for when writing for the lead Tenor Trombone.

I would say "lead bone" would be written for a small bore. In that cool jazzy notation script. The one thing you should mostly play on small bore and somehow its being played on a symphonic tenor in your world.

It can't be the dead straight standard anymore. I don't think we're doing our beloved instrument as a whole any justice.

You should speak only for yourself.

What year of "trombone major" are you at? Has your teacher told you that you need specific equipment for specific jobs? Is this topic prompted from your unwillingness to buy the right gear for the job you want?

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