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Author Topic: Triple tonguing - why?  (Read 1579 times)
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sabutin

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« Reply #20 on: Feb 17, 2017, 07:57AM »

Practice all variations in all subdivisions. I personally think in Ts + Ks. Ds and Gs are just as good, I suppose. The vowel sound? You choose. "ah" always sounds cleaner than "uh" for me, but in some idioms you do not necessarily want "clean."

First get good w/double tonguing both ways:

T K T K  T K T K

and

K T K T  K T K T

Why?

Because it works both ways, and you never know when you are going to need to start on an offbeat. Developing the initial attack as a K opens up many possibilities.

Then work triple tonguing all three ways and see how they work...for you.

T K T  T K T  T K T  T K T

T T K  T T K  T T K  T T K

T K T  K T K  T K T  K T K

Keep experimenting...starting on the second and third subdivisions, etc. with both consonant sounds. Get fluid.

When you get good at that...go on to five subdivisions.

T K T/T K  T K T/T K seems to work best for me. T K T/K T  K T K/T K seems like it should work, but I just haven't got the time to spend developing it.

Then seven.

T K T K/T K T  T K T K/T K T works for me.; Again...not enough time in life for this kind of development. Got long tones to do...sigh...

It's potentially endless. But doing these kinds of things works wonders for your straight double and triple tonguing.

Like I said...get fluid.

Look into the Indian vocal approach to learning how to play tabla.

Like this. There are many more up on YouTube.

It pertains.

Bet on it.

Like I said...it's endless.

S.
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« Reply #21 on: Feb 17, 2017, 09:59AM »

Is it? I would say I've only ever heard single.
You're right.  I have heard single a lot too, but I guess it depends on the speed they take it at.  Most of the better players take it pretty reasonably.  When I played it in high school I used triple as it let me set the triplets out better.
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« Reply #22 on: Feb 17, 2017, 10:31AM »

You're right.  I have heard single a lot too, but I guess it depends on the speed they take it at.  Most of the better players take it pretty reasonably.  When I played it in high school I used triple as it let me set the triplets out better.

Now the original Pryor recording ... I don't even know what kind of pattern he was using. Tempo was all over the place on that variation. His style doesn't mesh too well with the way my ears were 'socialized'.
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« Reply #23 on: Feb 17, 2017, 12:14PM »

Yeah, Pryor's rendition is one of the faster ones and he was certainly freer with his tempo than any of the modern artists.  But his was so fast that I think he must have used triple tonguing, at least in some places.  The way he treats tempo - he must have given the other players fits.
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Max Croot
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« Reply #24 on: Feb 18, 2017, 03:17AM »

Billo is right about triple and double in Blue Bells and in Pryors day using cylinder discs they had to play fast to get it all on the disc.
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« Reply #25 on: Feb 18, 2017, 04:13AM »

Generally it works better to learn triple first, then double. 

I guess that everybody is different. I had hard time setting up the triple tonguing well in place and in order.
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #26 on: Feb 18, 2017, 08:18AM »

Generally it works better to learn triple first, then double.
I guess that everybody is different. I had hard time setting up the triple tonguing well in place and in order.

Did you try to learn triple first, or after learning double?
If it was after you learned double, that's my point exactly.
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« Reply #27 on: Feb 18, 2017, 09:28AM »

I guess I try them to learn simultaneosly. The problem was to make automatic where what syllable goes. With double there was not much of a choice, which I guess made things simple. In tripple tonguing I was more inclined to do t-k-t instead of t-t-k. T-K-T would normally slow me down because of two consecutive normal tonguing (t) between beats, that's why my teacher wanted the t-t-k, which is understeandable.
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« Reply #28 on: Feb 18, 2017, 09:50AM »

I found that I used a slightly different thing.  Two T's in a row is tough.  T-D-K seems to work better for me.
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« Reply #29 on: Feb 18, 2017, 09:55AM »

I gues that depends on the register that articulations are played in. This was just an example. Depending on the character I look for and the register mines go between t-d and k-g. The indian thing that Sam posted is really good.
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #30 on: Feb 18, 2017, 01:11PM »

If you do like I said and learn triple first, both will be a lot easier.
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« Reply #31 on: Feb 18, 2017, 01:25PM »

maybe so...but I cannot go back 15 years ago. Now everything works as intendeed Yeah, RIGHT.
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« Reply #32 on: Feb 19, 2017, 02:18AM »

She is good, though the music doesn't get sold without lots of beer...

Well the music is for selling lots of beer. :D
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« Reply #33 on: Feb 19, 2017, 05:45AM »

At a recent band gig, we played a totally inane and stupid piece. Afterwards, I petitioned the director to let me buy the full score from the band at whatever price they wanted - just so I could burn it.

Anyway, there was a long part where I used double-tonguing. I didn't have to or need to. I just did it to give those notes that characteristic staccato double-tongue sound, which I thought sounded nicer than my best single-tongue.

Can you tell when a performer is using some form of multiple-tongue, and the give-away isn't the speed of the piece he's playing, it's the characteristic sound?

So, my point for using multiple-tonguing isn't always for speed; sometimes it's for the sound that I believe would be very, very difficult to replicate with single-tonguing.

Perhaps, as is the custom, a few posts later a pro will pretty much re-iterate what I just posted and get ALL the credit for it.

...Geezer 
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« Reply #34 on: Feb 19, 2017, 06:50AM »

So, my point for using multiple-tonguing isn't always for speed; sometimes it's for the sound that I believe would be very, very difficult to replicate with single-tonguing.

Is there a characteristic multiple tonguing sound to strive for though? I was always taught to work on your multiple tonguing to the point where it's indistinguishable from your single tongue, meaning lots of practicing with just the K articulation and such. Different players cross over to multiple tonguing at different speeds, but not usually because of style. E.G. A professor I took from in undergrad starts multiple tonguing 16ths at q=80 because he has a strong double and weak single, but it never sounds like multiple tonguing. Meanwhile my single tongue is strong so I do it up to 16ths at q=160.

At the same time, he taught that you should be able to play every type of multiple tonguing there is, even triple tonguing starting with a K (KTT KTT), so that you can most easily lock in with a principal player who does it that way. He also used each type of triple tonguing for different things, like TTK for solitary loud triplets, TKT for repeated triplets, and alternating double tongue for the fastest passages.
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« Reply #35 on: Feb 19, 2017, 08:39AM »

The "characteristic sound" of any tonguing done WELL is to be indistinguishable as to what kind of tonguing is being used.

I believe the Geezer is referring to the characteristic sound of an amateur.

Evil Don't know

I have no idea what sort of "pro" will take credit for that.
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« Reply #36 on: Feb 19, 2017, 09:30AM »

Lol. Cute. There are many instances where it SHOULD be indistinguishable from single-tonguing and many instances where a characteristic sound is preferred. YMMV as there is no accounting for taste.

...Geezer
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« Reply #37 on: Feb 19, 2017, 09:35AM »

 :good:I couldn't agree more. Use what sounds best in the given musical situation
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« Reply #38 on: Feb 19, 2017, 10:29AM »

Thanks Bob. That is precisely what I am referring to.

I have heard lines played with legato multiple-tonguing where I didn't know the performer was using multiple-tonguing until it was pointed out to me by someone with much more playing and listening acumen than me (wink wink). And I have heard lines multiple-tongued in such an "off the books" way with a "characteristic sound" unique to the performer and unique to the piece that I would not want to hear those lines played in any other way.

So when I use the term "characteristic sound", it relates not only to how a given performer may wish to execute it, it also refers to the musical context in which it resides.

There are some pieces where I want to hear a "characteristic sound" of the staccato - - - (pick your pet syllables) for triple tonguing that is unmistakable. Double-tonguing as well. And there are places where I don't want to hear that; I want it performed with a type of "non-characteristic sound" that is done seamlessly within the phrase.

...Geezer   
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« Reply #39 on: Feb 19, 2017, 10:58AM »

I always thought I could double and triple tongue pretty well.  However it seems that's not the case.  I've recently started taking lessons again to speed up my return to some decent level of playing.  My instructor asked me to do some triple and double tonguing exercises from Arban's.  He said it's not just about speed, he could hear the syllables I was using and said that that was not right.  So he's given me some exercise which I have to perform fairly slowly and record myself every other day or so and try to get all the syllables to sound exactly the same.  He says the listener should not be able to tell when multi-tonguing is being used.  Especially double.  Triple they might guess from musical figures, but they should not hear a difference in the attack of each note.

It's tough to get the ku and du syllables hard enough to sound like the tu syllable, but that is to goal.  I'll tell you, it's a real workout for the tongue.

To the OP, I just pulled out a piece that is nigh impossible to play up to speed without using triple and double tongue.  William Tell Overture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxOaqCmZcUU  The fun starts about 1:29
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