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Author Topic: A little experiment with Silicone lubrication...  (Read 1293 times)
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BGuttman
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« Reply #20 on: Feb 18, 2017, 05:05PM »

There are a lot of acids I'd strongly recommend against use by "civilians".  Strong acids will actively attack the metals in the brass and cause structural problems in a trombone.

Vinegar (acetic acid) and oxalic acid are organic acids.  Oxalic acid is often used in automotive radiator cleaners so it's more compatible with brass.  Any organic acid is a lot less aggressive on metals than the mineral acids like hydrochloric, sufuric, nitric, and phosphoric.  Still, organic acids are somewhat corrosive to metals.  CLR does not contain acetic or oxalic acids, though.

The CLR MSDS states that it's reactive with all metals except stainless steel and chrome.  I don't know if this means they tested it with everything else and found some corrosion or if they didn't test it and just assumed it will corrode if not tested.

Incidentally, the MSDS of CLR shows a glycol ether solvent in the formula.  It's not shown in the hazardous materials list but is shown in the environmental section.  Glycol ether solvents may attack a lacquer coating.  Note that I said may.  Do a test on an unimportant area before you start soaking.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #21 on: Feb 18, 2017, 11:04PM »

Thanks Bruce,
There are a lot of acids I'd strongly recommend against use by "civilians".  Strong acids will actively attack the metals in the brass and cause structural problems in a trombone.

Vinegar (acetic acid) and oxalic acid are organic acids.  Oxalic acid is often used in automotive radiator cleaners so it's more compatible with brass.  Any organic acid is a lot less aggressive on metals than the mineral acids like hydrochloric, sufuric, nitric, and phosphoric.  Still, organic acids are somewhat corrosive to metals.  CLR does not contain acetic or oxalic acids, though.

The CLR MSDS states that it's reactive with all metals except stainless steel and chrome.  I don't know if this means they tested it with everything else and found some corrosion or if they didn't test it and just assumed it will corrode if not tested.

Incidentally, the MSDS of CLR shows a glycol ether solvent in the formula.  It's not shown in the hazardous materials list but is shown in the environmental section.  Glycol ether solvents may attack a lacquer coating.  Note that I said may.  Do a test on an unimportant area before you start soaking.
I guess that's a pretty good indicator that CLR is NOT a benign alternative, even though it's used to target calcium...  :-0
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« Reply #22 on: Feb 19, 2017, 10:45AM »

No common denominators. In southern california heat may be a constant, at least compared to other parts of the US.  Always the outers, but nickel or brass, new or old can happen.

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« Reply #23 on: Feb 19, 2017, 01:57PM »

No common denominators. In southern california heat may be a constant, at least compared to other parts of the US.  Always the outers, but nickel or brass, new or old can happen.

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Thanks mate.

Quite a conundrum isn't it...

Doesn't surprise me that it's the outers that suffer - I imagine the highly polished chrome finish of the inners would make any deposition quite a bit less effective.

If it was simply the heat I would have expected all a players horns to be affected.  Confused
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« Reply #24 on: Feb 19, 2017, 04:33PM »

No common denominators. In southern california heat may be a constant, at least compared to other parts of the US.  Always the outers, but nickel or brass, new or old can happen.
If tap water is involved, that's a source of inconsistency all by itself. One day your water comes from the Sacramento Delta, the next it's from local wells. A week later it's from the Colorado River or maybe a local reservoir filled by runoff from local mountains.
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« Reply #25 on: Feb 19, 2017, 04:39PM »

CHrome is interesting.  I've polished chrome bike handlebars....rusty and nasty, but afterwards the rust is gone and they look new?  I've found that chrome plate is much like a sharks skin under a microscope, not the impervious layer I'd imagined.  Then the rusty handlebars made sense, the pores let the rust through, and wax (or cold cream) seals the pores.

So chrome is a hard layer resistant to wear, but not corrosion resistant.  Some gun coatings make chrome look like hairspray when comparing corrosion resistance, salt spray and heat, etc.  Also there are harder more wear resistant coatings (TIn) but most seem to be not compatablle with brass (ie high heat to apply).
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« Reply #26 on: Feb 19, 2017, 06:29PM »

CHrome is interesting.  I've polished chrome bike handlebars....rusty and nasty, but afterwards the rust is gone and they look new?  I've found that chrome plate is much like a sharks skin under a microscope, not the impervious layer I'd imagined.  Then the rusty handlebars made sense, the pores let the rust through, and wax (or cold cream) seals the pores.

So chrome is a hard layer resistant to wear, but not corrosion resistant.  Some gun coatings make chrome look like hairspray when comparing corrosion resistance, salt spray and heat, etc.  Also there are harder more wear resistant coatings (TIn) but most seem to be not compatablle with brass (ie high heat to apply).
Two different types of chrome plating. The plating on handlebars, bumpers, etc., is usually "decorative" chrome (very thin chrome over nickel). Mechanical wear parts normally get "hard" chrome - significantly thicker.
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« Reply #27 on: Feb 19, 2017, 07:57PM »

Thanks JohnL,
Two different types of chrome plating. The plating on handlebars, bumpers, etc., is usually "decorative" chrome (very thin chrome over nickel). Mechanical wear parts normally get "hard" chrome - significantly thicker.
Mildly informative wikipedia article here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_plating
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« Reply #28 on: Mar 01, 2017, 02:37PM »

An update for those interested.
The full Silicone lube route is working pretty good on both horns with the following caveats:

a) On my R10F, the roller I made for the F trigger doesn't like the very light silicone fluid I'm using - it dries out fairly quickly.  To stop it being a distraction during a rehearsal I tried a drop of SoM Rapid comfort on it and it was excellent.  I'll keep that in my bag of tricks.  Longer term I have some 7cSt fluid AND some emulsion that is relatively heavy - 2000cSt.  The emulsion may turn out to be a better choice for the roller, but it is way too heavy for the valve itself.  Perhaps if I'd reamed the roller instead of simply drilling it and thereby gotten a closer fit the lighter fluid might have worked.

b) I want to try a slightly heavier (higher viscosity) lube than I'm currently testing.  I think I selected one that was too light - fortunately I can "dial my own" viscosity between 2 and 7 cSt by simply mixing various ratios of the 2 fluids I have.

Updates to come.
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« Reply #29 on: Apr 21, 2017, 09:42AM »

Time for the next update.

The 2cst fluid is too light.  I didn't end up trying to mix the 7cst to adjust viscosities, instead I tried SoM Rapid Comfort.  I have to say it's been a raging success - my valves have never been better.  Just need to use a little of the 2cst fluid with it.

Next move will be to convert my Chinese bass - it has conventional rotors rather than Hagmaans and I want to see if the silicone works as well - I expect it to.
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--=-- My credo - If something's worth doing, it's worth overdoing. - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya Grin --=--

You're only paranoid if you're wrong.
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