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Author Topic: Recusal, Removal, or Indictment?  (Read 4985 times)
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Russ White

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« on: Mar 02, 2017, 08:19AM »

It became apparent today that AG Jeff Sessions lied under oath during his confirmation hearing. We recently had a President impeached for lying under oath about an issue with far less serious ramifications. What should happen to AG Sessions?
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« Reply #1 on: Mar 02, 2017, 08:27AM »

If it was a Democratic president, the Republicans would be shouting from the rooftops for his head.  I think the Democrats are being somewhat restrained.  Even the Republicans are asking that he recuse himself from anything relating to Russia (and he appears to be loathe to do so).

I think Sessions is far and away the worst possible AG given his strong support for Jim Crow in the past.  I'd like to see somebody a little more forthright in that position.
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« Reply #2 on: Mar 02, 2017, 08:29AM »

I'm gonna say that Flynn lowered the bar.

He didn't have to resign until it was proven that he discussed pertinent issues with a Russian official. The lying to Congress (?) part didn't really cross the line in the current environment (foxes, henhouse, all that).

As long as no one can prove Sessions discussed pertinent issues with a Russian, he'll get off.
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« Reply #3 on: Mar 02, 2017, 08:31AM »

Another fake accusation by the losing party.  Evil
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« Reply #4 on: Mar 02, 2017, 08:53AM »

Another fake accusation by the losing party.  Evil

What part is fake?
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« Reply #5 on: Mar 02, 2017, 09:39AM »

What part is fake?

none of it.
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« Reply #6 on: Mar 02, 2017, 09:40AM »

What part is fake?

Who you gonna believe? Visual recordings?
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« Reply #7 on: Mar 02, 2017, 09:42AM »

For those who think this is a partisan issue:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/02/politics/democrats-sessions-russia-resignation-call/index.html

Sessions is a lying sack of ****
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« Reply #8 on: Mar 02, 2017, 09:43AM »

Who you gonna believe? Visual recordings?

Some folks will go to their graves before admitting that they could be wrong. Too much pride involved.
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« Reply #9 on: Mar 02, 2017, 09:45AM »

Some folks will go to their graves before admitting that they could be wrong. Too much pride involved.

Yeah.  We elected him :/
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« Reply #10 on: Mar 02, 2017, 10:17AM »

Anybody remember Ted Kennedy?
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« Reply #11 on: Mar 02, 2017, 10:26AM »

" The smear against Sessions is typical. I can think of a dozen reasons why the chairman of the Armed Services Committee would meet with the Russian ambassador to the U.S. having nothing to do with presidential politics. There are also several reasons why Sessions, as an individual senator would meet with Kislyak.".

I concur.
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« Reply #12 on: Mar 02, 2017, 10:27AM »

Anybody remember Ted Kennedy?

When did he get elected President?  I think Chappaquiddick did him in.

" The smear against Sessions is typical. I can think of a dozen reasons why the chairman of the Armed Services Committee would meet with the Russian ambassador to the U.S. having nothing to do with presidential politics. There are also several reasons why Sessions, as an individual senator would meet with Kislyak.".

I concur.

NPR interviewed 20 of the 24 members of the Armed Services Committees (House and Senate) and to a man they felt that there was no need for any of them to have a meeting with any ambassador.  They had a meeting with a bunch of them at the time the Iran Nuclear Treaty was being written because that directly affected them.
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« Reply #13 on: Mar 02, 2017, 10:40AM »

You can present irrefutable evidence that collusion was going on and there is STILL no way 'he' will change his position.

Predictable
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« Reply #14 on: Mar 02, 2017, 10:44AM »

" The smear against Sessions is typical. I can think of a dozen reasons why the chairman of the Armed Services Committee would meet with the Russian ambassador to the U.S. having nothing to do with presidential politics. There are also several reasons why Sessions, as an individual senator would meet with Kislyak.".

I concur.
Yes.  But why did he lie?

Action MUST be taken.  Recusal is now required and an investigation will now be required is well.  Why does everybody in the Trump camp meet with Russia, and why do they always lie about it?  Lots of smoke that they may just be making for themselves because they are incompetent.  Either way you need to find out.

Heck, Sessions may need to lose his job for this.  Asking that he rot in jail for what we know is dumb.  I'm sure if the shoe were on the other foot "Lock her up" would be the chant, but again that is ^&*$^%-ing stupid.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #15 on: Mar 02, 2017, 10:53AM »

As for anyone who DOESN'T think that an investigation is in order, I question their loyalty to the USA. They'd rather pledge loyalty to their own party.

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« Reply #16 on: Mar 02, 2017, 11:09AM »

From one of my staunch, Trump-voting neighbors - who will not compromise his strong principles of honesty and transparency:

“Lyin’ Jeff!  Lock him up!” 

 Bad dog.  No Biscuits.
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« Reply #17 on: Mar 02, 2017, 02:27PM »

But, he's pro-life (he said so and that's good enough for ...).  Plus he's not Hillary.  Cannot state that too many times - He's not Hillary.
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« Reply #18 on: Mar 02, 2017, 02:32PM »

But, he's pro-life (he said so and that's good enough for ...).  Plus he's not Hillary.  Cannot state that too many times - He's not Hillary.

Who?  Sessions?

Incidentally, I don't think any of them are pro-life.  They support the death penalty for convicted murderers.  Pro-life people will oppose the Death Penalty as well as opposing Abortion.

Sessions has recused himself.  Hope the investigation will show what really happened, whether sinister or not.
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« Reply #19 on: Mar 02, 2017, 02:34PM »

And looks like trump's son in law also met with the russians:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/02/us/politics/kushner-flynn-sessions-russia.html?_r=0
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Michael T. Flynn, then Donald J. Trump’s incoming national security adviser, had a previously undisclosed meeting with the Russian ambassador in December to “establish a line of communication” between the new administration and the Russian government, the White House said on Thursday.

Jared Kushner, Mr. Trump’s son-in-law and now a senior adviser, also participated in the meeting at Trump Tower with Mr. Flynn and Sergey I. Kislyak, the Russian ambassador. But among Mr. Trump’s inner circle, it is Mr. Flynn who appears to have been the main interlocutor with the Russian envoy — the two were in contact during the campaign and the transition, Mr. Kislyak and current and former American officials have said.

But the extent and frequency of their contacts remains unclear, and the disclosure of the meeting at Trump Tower adds to the emerging picture of how the relationship between Mr. Trump’s incoming team and Moscow was evolving to include some of the president-elect’s most trusted advisers.

The White House has repeatedly sought to play down any connections with Mr. Kislyak. Attorney General Jeff Sessions acknowledged this week that he had met twice with him during the campaign, despite previous denials.

The New Yorker reported this week that Mr. Kushner had met with Mr. Kislyak at Trump Tower in December. Hope Hicks, a White House spokeswoman, confirmed on Thursday that Mr. Flynn was also at the meeting in response to questions from a New York Times reporter.

You know... I think this is now officially the most poorly handled political scandal I have yet seen.
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« Reply #20 on: Mar 02, 2017, 03:11PM »

Who you gonna believe? Visual recordings?
Some folks will go to their graves before admitting that they could be wrong. Too much pride involved.

Pride, a profoundly (Dunning-Kruger) inflated sense of personal character, perspective and understanding.
 
What "fake news" really means from the far right, more often than not, is I'm an extreme intellectual coward and self-deception is very easy for me--something I proudly cultivate.
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« Reply #21 on: Mar 02, 2017, 03:23PM »

A den of snakes
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« Reply #22 on: Mar 02, 2017, 04:01PM »


You know... I think this is now officially the most poorly handled political scandal I have yet seen.


By the Drumpfians or by the investigators/ press?
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« Reply #23 on: Mar 02, 2017, 04:20PM »

By the Drumpfians or by the investigators/ press?
Trump!

The press only gets what they get when they get it... then they need to vet it for what they can.

But trump's folk... they've been in the know since the beginning, they are after all the ones who did this mess, and scoot around blindly like rats in the middle of the floor who never believed that the lights could be turned on and don't know what to do now that they are! How old is the adage: keep your friends close and your enemies closer?

Wha? You mean people were watching the top russian officials in the country? Wha? Um... Um...

The handling has been worse than a 5th grade bully watching a video from a school yard camera of him bullying another kid. But... but... there wasn't a teacher around! Where did you get that from?! How could you have known?!
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« Reply #24 on: Mar 02, 2017, 04:45PM »

" The smear against Sessions is typical. I can think of a dozen reasons why the chairman of the Armed Services Committee would meet with the Russian ambassador to the U.S. having nothing to do with presidential politics. There are also several reasons why Sessions, as an individual senator would meet with Kislyak.".

I concur.

The problem isn't that he met with him, the problem is during his confirmation hearing under oath he lied about meeting with him.  For the entire presidential campaign we had to listen to Trump refer to Hillary Clinton as Lying Hillary, if he's that concerned with truthfulness he should get himself a new attorney general.
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« Reply #25 on: Mar 02, 2017, 05:28PM »

The problem isn't that he met with him, the problem is during his confirmation hearing under oath he lied about meeting with him.  For the entire presidential campaign we had to listen to Trump refer to Hillary Clinton as Lying Hillary, if he's that concerned with truthfulness he should get himself a new attorney general.

He's not interested in honesty, he's interested in rallying and herding fools, and in convincing other conservatives that the fools will carry the party so they have to get in line with them.
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« Reply #26 on: Mar 02, 2017, 08:55PM »

The problem isn't that he met with him, the problem is during his confirmation hearing under oath he lied about meeting with him.  For the entire presidential campaign we had to listen to Trump refer to Hillary Clinton as Lying Hillary, if he's that concerned with truthfulness he should get himself a new attorney general.

He didn't lie either. He answered the questions correctly, because he didn't meet with them to address the campaign. He met with the Ambassador as a Senator, and member of the Armed Forces committee, dealing with other issues. This is all a setup.
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« Reply #27 on: Mar 02, 2017, 09:02PM »

He didn't lie either. He answered the questions correctly, because he didn't meet with them to address the campaign. He met with the Ambassador as a Senator, and member of the Armed Forces committee, dealing with other issues. This is all a setup.

No more than getting Bill Clinton to lie about an affair as an excuse to impeach him.
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« Reply #28 on: Mar 02, 2017, 09:12PM »

cuzzin teddy  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah, RIGHT. Yeah, RIGHT. Yeah, RIGHT. Yeah, RIGHT. Hi Hi Hi Hi Hi :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Anybody remember Ted Kennedy?
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« Reply #29 on: Mar 02, 2017, 09:25PM »

No more than getting Bill Clinton to lie about an affair as an excuse to impeach him.

It's just that democrats conflate everything. What do you think we have Ambassadors for in the first place, but to talk to them. Geez. This whole Russian-hacked-election-screwed Hillary-crap is nothing but a big crapburger.

Did Loretta Lynch recuse herself after meeting with BJ Clinton on the tarmac the weekend before the big FBI announcement? No. Did any of you demand her to recuse herself? no.

Did anybody punish Teddy for trying to get the Russians to help out in the elections? (This actually was a true story)

Why not? he's a democrat.

This is a gigantic nothing burger.

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« Reply #30 on: Mar 02, 2017, 10:17PM »

Unfortunately, Dusty is tying himself into knots trying to protect AG/Senator Sessions.  In fact, Sen. Franken's question was not about meeting to address the campaign (that was just his prologue) - he asked if Sen Sessions had met at all with any high-level Russians.  Unfortunately for Sen Sessions, he (under oath) dishonestly replied "No."  That, by anyone's standards (especially Sen Sessions's) is perjury. 

In his confirmation hearing in February, Dusty's friend Jeff only compounded his sin originally committed in January:

According to the Washington Post, Sen. Patrick Leahy also sent Sessions this written question in January:

Several of the president-elect’s nominees or senior advisers have Russian ties. Have you been in contact with anyone connected to any part of the Russian government about the 2016 election, either before or after election day?

Sessions’s reply: “No.

No wonder - in spite of Dusty's protestations - Sessions was forced to recuse himself. 
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« Reply #31 on: Mar 02, 2017, 10:23PM »

The entertaining exercise here is to imagine DDickerson's reaction if Hillary had been elected, and there was similar evidence of misbehavior. I'm sure he'd be in here defending her, because he's a man of principle.
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« Reply #32 on: Mar 02, 2017, 11:01PM »

What sort of "official business" was the Russian Ambassador doing at the Republican National Convention?

Jeff Sessions used campaign cash for RNC trip where he met Russian ambassador for ‘official’ reasons: WSJ


If it's official business why does the Washington-based Armed Services Committee chairman go to Cleveland to meet the Washington-based Russian Ambassador?

And if it was official business why didn't he report on his meeting to his Armed Services Committee?






Did Loretta Lynch recuse herself after meeting with BJ Clinton on the tarmac the weekend before the big FBI announcement? No. Did any of you demand her to recuse herself? no.

N.Y. Times...

Quote
WASHINGTON — Attorney General Loretta E. Lynch, conceding that her airport meeting with former President Bill Clinton this week had cast a shadow over the federal investigation of Hillary Clinton’s personal email account, said Friday that she would accept whatever recommendations career prosecutors and the F.B.I. director made about whether to bring charges in the case.

Distinction without a difference.







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« Reply #33 on: Mar 03, 2017, 04:15AM »

He didn't lie either. He answered the questions correctly, because he didn't meet with them to address the campaign. He met with the Ambassador as a Senator, and member of the Armed Forces committee, dealing with other issues. This is all a setup.
Yes... the democrats are so devious... In a question asking what sessions would do if he found out news of campaign surrogates dealing with Russia.... they got him to volunteer the information that he was considered a surrogate and has also not met with Russia... aside from the times he did. They didn't even ask he the question that his answer was a lie to... Sneaky sneaky dems!

Because the GOP only cares about these things when a democrat does them...

For example:
Deficits only matter when a dem is in the white house...
Emails only matter on a private server when a dem does it, not, say... the current VP using the same while actually criticizing a dem for doing it:
     http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/03/518286557/mike-pence-used-aol-email-for-state-business-as-indiana-governor
     The now EPA head did the same when he was AG
     https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2017/02/27/us/politics/ap-us-epa-pruitt-emails.html
     Both under the same laws and problems as the dem, but it's ok.... they're republicans.
Lying before congress only matters when a dem does it...
Botched foreign attacks only matter when they happen under dems...


Such obvious ploys of pure partisanship, and a complete disregard of country and law.
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« Reply #34 on: Mar 03, 2017, 05:06AM »

The entertaining exercise here is to imagine DDickerson's reaction if Hillary had been elected, and there was similar evidence of misbehavior. I'm sure he'd be in here defending her, because he's a man of principle.

"Lock her up.  And the Kenyan Mooslim too!" Evil Evil
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« Reply #35 on: Mar 03, 2017, 05:32AM »

He didn't lie either. He answered the questions correctly, because he didn't meet with them to address the campaign. He met with the Ambassador as a Senator, and member of the Armed Forces committee, dealing with other issues. This is all a setup.

I've watched both the question and his answer:  He avoided the actual question which was and I Paraphrase; What would you do if you found out there was collusion with the Russians, he avoided answering the question by saying he couldn't answer it because he was unaware of anyone from the campaign including himself meeting with the Russians.  The question about whether or not he lied isn't in debate anymore since he is now admitting he should have said I met with the Russians but we didn't discus the campaign. It's a fact he said he didn't meet with the Russians During the Campaign (regardless of what the question was) and it's a fact that he had met with a Russian Ambassador two times during the Campaign.     
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« Reply #36 on: Mar 03, 2017, 06:04AM »


Teaser:
"The Opposition Party, the Democrats and mainstream media, has suddenly discovered that Russia is our enemy, therefore nobody in the Trump administration should have spoken to the Russians before the elections."

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2017/03/jeff_sessions_should_not_have_recused_himself.html#ixzz4aGtXGSJ8
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« Reply #37 on: Mar 03, 2017, 06:23AM »

Submissions from American Thinker are not worth the effort to paste them here DD.  You should know that.

Talk about your fake news!  LOL!

To me it's simple.  Sessions lied.  That should be enough.

It was his job to meet with ambassadors of other countries.  That being the case, unless he was trying to cover something up, why would he lie about his meeting with the Russians?  His response should have been," Yes I  met with them.  That was my job."  The fish stink is overwhelming.
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« Reply #38 on: Mar 03, 2017, 06:50AM »

But, he's pro-life!  And, he's not Hillary!
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« Reply #39 on: Mar 03, 2017, 08:30AM »

Submissions from American Thinker are not worth the effort to paste them here DD. 

Well, since this community is nothing but liberal/leftists/demos, I can understand why you can't tolerate other people's/writers point of view. It is very apparent even before you make my point here this morning.

Demos claim the mantel of open mindedness, but yet, here you are dismissing news organizations you don't like.
It makes perfect sense why discussions around here go south so quickly.

So, I go back to my, 'look it up yourself' meme for the weak minded.

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« Reply #40 on: Mar 03, 2017, 08:42AM »

Well, since this community is nothing but liberal/leftists/demos, I can understand why you can't tolerate other people's/writers point of view. It is very apparent even before you make my point here this morning.

There's a difference between "other points of view" and really bad writing.

That's a distinction some on the right formerly made also but it has become much less evident recently.

One of my right wing friends recently pointed out that all the fact checking organizations are left wing.  Really?  If true, that's a shame.   
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« Reply #41 on: Mar 03, 2017, 09:33AM »


One of my right wing friends recently pointed out that all the fact checking organizations are left wing.  Really?  If true, that's a shame.   


On the Liberal Bias of Facts

Quote
“The facts have a well-known liberal bias,” declared Rob Corddry way back in 2004 — and experience keeps vindicating his joke. But why?

Not long ago Ezra Klein cited research showing that both liberals and conservatives are subject to strong tribal bias — presented with evidence, they see what they want to see. I then wrote that this poses a puzzle, because in practice liberals don’t engage in the kind of mass rejections of evidence that conservatives do. The inevitable response was a torrent of angry responses and claims that liberals do too reject facts — but none of the claims measured up.

Just to be clear: Yes, you can find examples where *some* liberals got off on a hobbyhorse of one kind or another, or where the liberal conventional wisdom turned out wrong. But you don’t see the kind of lockstep rejection of evidence that we see over and over again on the right. Where is the liberal equivalent of the near-uniform conservative rejection of climate science, or the refusal to admit that Obamacare is in fact reaching a lot of previously uninsured Americans?
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« Reply #42 on: Mar 03, 2017, 09:44AM »

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Well, since this community is nothing but liberal/leftists/demos, I can understand why you can't tolerate other people's/writers point of view.

Mod Question:
Does repeatedly corrected, blatant lying like this get a pass for the sake of political correctness in here? Because it's pretty obvious it's disrespectful and insulting to the audience. Being so rude as to notice such things can often be the issue when political correctness is misguidedly and inappropriately applied, so it seems clarification on this is in order given the current circumstances (fueled by the fact that dishonesty has achieved an Orwellian position in our society due to authoritarians boosting a plainly depraved man into the White House).
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« Reply #43 on: Mar 03, 2017, 09:58AM »

There's a difference between "other points of view" and really bad writing.

Who is the judge of good writing? American Thinker is an excellent site with reputable writers/contributors.

So much for the open mindedness of the liberals/leftists/demos.

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« Reply #44 on: Mar 03, 2017, 10:31AM »

Well, since this community is nothing but liberal/leftists/demos, I can understand why you can't tolerate other people's/writers point of view.

Dusty, I take strong exception to this characterization - and to your consistent habit of putting EVERYONE that you disagree with into one basket of deplorables. 

I for one am not a "liberal" (at least by your definition of the word), nor am I a "leftist," and I am certainly not a Democrat ("demo," in your jargon).  I am (mostly) pretty conservative - especially on fiscal matters - but open-minded on many social issues because of my Christian faith (WWJD?).  You might have once characterized me as center-right - until the recent hard right turn made by both the Republican party and the current President (who apparently only recently found the Republican "religion").  I abandoned my Republican party registration several years ago when the party deserted middle America, and will not register as a Democrat because I cannot agree with many of that party's positions or tactics. 

I can "tolerate" many points of view, and try hard to read and assimilate (or at least understand) arguments and positions from writers of all persuasions.  But I cannot sanction or tolerate the blatant discrimination, divisiveness, nastiness - and worst of all the dishonesty - of the current administration. 

Dusty, I know it may seem it's you against the world (I wish someone else would chime in to back your posts - your allies must be hiding!), but the problem is that many of your positions are indefensible and your arguments fail the tests of logic, knowledge, and common sense.   
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« Reply #45 on: Mar 03, 2017, 10:39AM »

What's being demonstrated here, what has ground the Republic into the dirt, and what truly gets under moderate and liberal people's skins, is the absolute intellectual dishonesty that the right has embraced, cultivated, and made mainstream.  

Jeff Sessions lied.  He just plain said one thing, in an answer to a straightforward question, while he had done another thing.  And instead of admitting that, he and his proxies are now twisting their guts into more half-truths.

Flynn lied.  Same thing.

Trump lies all the time.  Same thing.

Conway lies all the time.  Same thing.

Mike Pence ran a private email server.  Where is the same outrage from the right that they had when Hillary Clinton did that.

The same party that investigated the tragedy at Benghazi for years and years all but refused to investigate Russian interference in our election.

And before Mr. Dickerson jumps in with some kind false equivalency, I want to say that false equivalency is part of the problem.  Deflection and false equivalency are the weapons of intellectual dishonesty.  You shouldn't mention what Bill or Hillary Clinton did when you're talking about what Jeff Sessions did.  You shouldn't mention what George W Bush did when you're talking about Jeff Sessions.  You shouldn't mention what General Flynn did when talking about Jeff Sessions.  There's not an equivalent in this.  The attorney general lied, plain and simple, and got caught.  An appropriate response from an actual patriot, and not a puppet, is "Then he needs to be investigated, and if the investigation leads to charges then he needs to resign."  It not, "Well, Hillary Clinton lied all the time."  She may have. She paid for that.  She's not the attorney general right now.  

Intellectual dishonesty breeds alternative facts.  I really wanted to give Trump a chance, but I can't turn on the news without hearing a lie and then watching a mad scurry to defend a lie.  

If the Republicans in Congress turned around and investigated these Russian allegations with the same ferocity they investigated Hillary Clinton, they would be national heroes.  I'd vote for every one of them.  But all I see is people scrambling to answer lies with more lies.

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« Reply #46 on: Mar 03, 2017, 10:55AM »

If the Republicans in Congress turned around and investigated these Russian allegations with the same ferocity they investigated Hillary Clinton, they would be national heroes.

They are too craven to realize this, let alone act.

Amazing, sad, and predictable.

Nice post.

 Good!
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« Reply #47 on: Mar 03, 2017, 10:56AM »

Who is the judge of good writing? American Thinker is an excellent site with reputable writers/contributors.

Saying American Thinker has reputable writers makes me think of the joke, "I'm in shape! Round is a shape!" They do have a reputation after all, might not be a good one, but they have one...
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« Reply #48 on: Mar 03, 2017, 10:59AM »

What's being demonstrated here, what has ground the Republic into the dirt, and what truly gets under moderate and liberal people's skins, is the absolute intellectual dishonesty that the right has embraced, cultivated, and made mainstream.  ....

Krugman's current article lists out a few more as well

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/03/opinion/goodbye-spin-hello-raw-dishonesty.html?ref=opinion&_r=0

Quote
Not incidentally, if this news hadn’t come to light, forcing Mr. Sessions to recuse himself, he would have supervised the investigation into Russian election meddling, possibly in collusion with the Trump campaign.

But let’s not focus too much on Mr. Sessions. After all, he is joined in the cabinet by Scott Pruitt, the Environmental Protection Agency administrator, who lied to Congress about his use of a private email account; Tom Price, the secretary of health and human services, who lied about a sweetheart deal to purchase stock in a biotechnology company at a discount; and Steven Mnuchin, the Treasury secretary, who falsely told Congress that his financial firm didn’t engage in “robo-signing” of foreclosure documents, seizing homes without proper consideration.

And they would have served with Michael Flynn as national security adviser, but for the fact that Mr. Flynn was forced out after the press discovered that, like Mr. Sessions, he had lied about contacts with the Russian ambassador.

At this point it’s easier to list the Trump officials who haven’t been caught lying under oath than those who have. This is not an accident.

Is quite amazing the level of dis-ingenuity they are showing. The party of morals and ethics! Or at least in investigating those things in non-party people.
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« Reply #49 on: Mar 03, 2017, 11:30AM »

It isn't just the lies told during the confirmation hearings--it's the constant lying by Trump, his administration, and his spokespeople.

He lies about important stuff, but also trivia. His staff recently lied about him golfing. He lied about the size of his electoral victory at a press conference, which is not only not important enough to lie about, but easily disproved.

He claimed the Flynn story was 'fake news'--in other words, a made-up story--then swore to find the person who leaked it, who of course wouldn't have existed if the writer had made up the story. He lies so much he can't keep his story straight.

He can be quite indignant about negative stories, and lies about them self-righteously, declaring them as fake news, until his staff sheepishly admits the stories are true. He lies in layers--Flynn's conversations didn't exist, Flynn's conversations existed, okay, but they didn't concern sanctions, okay, that was a lie but there was nothing wrong with him discussing the sanctions.

The disheartening thing is that his people believe him at each step, even though he eventually has to admit to the previous lies. You'd think that 'fool-me-once-etc.' would apply here, but Trumpers are nothing if not credulous. "Okay, that thing I parroted yesterday from Trump isn't true anymore, but here's the new thing I'm parroting, just as confidently!"

What worries me is that we're entering a phase where some people don't really care if what the president says is true--they're so used to believing things for no reason that they'll just go along with anything that supports their side. As we see in the forum, the argument seems to be, "It's true because I'm saying it!"

I've never seen it to this degree. Trump's people make the Nixon White House look like pikers.
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« Reply #50 on: Mar 03, 2017, 12:04PM »

It is very apparent even before you make my point here this morning.
  Hmmm, not too sure I made your point for you.  Perhaps you might re-read what I wrote.

As for American Thinker, I have read that thing many times.  It's just been a waste of my time.  90% (just a wild estimate) of what they print is simply not true and is not substantiated by any other press.  The rest is so fiercely spun to the right it's enough to break your spine.
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« Reply #51 on: Mar 03, 2017, 12:30PM »

"American Thinker"

That is an oxymoron if I ever heard of one
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« Reply #52 on: Mar 03, 2017, 03:22PM »

Who is the judge of good writing?

Those of us who can write.
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« Reply #53 on: Mar 03, 2017, 04:35PM »

"American Thinker"

That is an oxymoron if I ever heard of one

What do you know?

You know it is not a liberal/leftist/demo rag. That's all you need to know to feed your open minded self. LOL!
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« Reply #54 on: Mar 03, 2017, 04:42PM »

"American Thinker"

That is an oxymoron if I ever heard of one

Here's a suggestion:

Take that article from American Thinker that I posted, read it, and unpack it point by point, and bring it back here. At least, it will prove that you read the article.

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« Reply #55 on: Mar 03, 2017, 06:24PM »

OK.  Here we go:

Quote from: American Thinker
There is no charge or evidence that the release of the Podesta emails affected the election.  Hillary won the popular vote.  Even if the release of the Podesta emails swayed some voters, how is it "interference" to release the truth about Hillary?

It is a violation of election rules (Hatch Act?) to release information that could prejudice any voters on the eve of an election.  The FBI was investigating Trump for a number of things as well, but they didn't release any of it.  Is this fair?

Quote from: American Thinker
As part of the Opposition Party's campaign,  it is now a political crime for a member of the Trump administration to have spoken with anyone from the Russian government before the election, and there must be investigations.

Not quite true.  Given the FBI has released a report that there is strong evidence that Russian hackers tampered with the DNC computers, contact between any Republican candidate and the Russians is suspect.  Not necessarily criminal, but deserving of scrutiny.

Quote from: American Thinker
First we had General Flynn.  Now  the Opposition Party is in full attack mode.  Nancy Pelosi and Chuck "Lightweight" Schumer demand the resignation of Attorney General Sessions because he spoke with the Russian ambassador.

Remember, we had Republicans demanding the resignation of Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State in the wake of the Benghazi attack.  I think it's just tit for tat.

Quote from: American Thinker
This had its intended effect.  Sessions announced on March 3 that he will recuse himself from any investigation of Russian "interference" in our election.

Sessions should not have recused himself.  He did nothing wrong.  By recusing himself, he adds credibility to the baseless charges.  He spoke with the Russian ambassador?  Big deal.  He did not sell uranium to Russia.  He did not run guns to Mexico as Eric Holder did in Fast and Furious.  He did not meet, as Loretta Lynch did, with Bill Clinton the day before the FBI questioned Hillary, not under oath, and then the FBI gave Hillary a pass.

Loretta Lynch effectively recused herself by stating publicly that she would abide by the findings of the FBI on the Clinton e-mails.  She did not attempt to halt or deflect the investigation.

Quote from: American Thinker
The Opposition Party is using the "Russia is our enemy" line only to attack Trump.  It does not seriously view Russia as our enemy.

The reason to suspect Russia is that we have evidence they tried to interfere with our election.  Any country that found we interfered with their election would suspect us too.  This is a straw man.

Quote from: American Thinker
For perspective, look at how the Opposition Party reacted to the news that Hillary and Bill Clinton profited from their contacts with Russia.

On April 23, 2015, the New York Times reported that Hillary Clinton, while secretary of state, agreed to sell to Putin's Russia twenty percent of the uranium production in the USA.  A Canadian company, Uranium One, that owned the USA uranium sold its assets to a Russian company.  Because uranium is a strategic asset, the sale had to be approved by the State Department and other departments.  The executives at Uranium One made four donations to the William Jefferson Clinton Foundation, also known as the William J. Corleone Foundation, totaling 2.35 million dollars.  In addition, Bill Clinton was paid $500,000 by a Russian bank involved with Uranium One for a speech Bubba gave in Moscow.  Draw your own conclusions.

The Times article was based on the research by Peter Schweizer in his book, Clinton Cash: The Untold Story of How and Why Foreign Governments and Businesses Helped Make Bill and Hillary Rich.

There has been no solid proof that any donations from the Canadian company or the Russians to the Clinton Foundation had any effect on Hillary Clinton's signing off on the uranium deal.  Besides, she was only one person.  Others included DoD people.

Note that there is an agreement between the US and Russia (and other countries) limiting the number of nuclear weapons that can be deployed.  However, there is no limit on the number of nuclear power plants that can be created.  Nuclear plants use a much lower grade Uranium than a weapon does.  This is a false assertion and intended to insinuate that Clinton gave the Russians nuclear weapons to use against us.

Quote from: American Thinker
The Republicans should have united  to defend Sessions, which is defending Trump.  Instead, Jason Chaffetz, Rob Portman, Susan Collins, and Lindsey Graham were touted by the Opposition Party as calling for Sessions to recuse himself.

The Opposition Party can always find appeasing Republicans to collaborate to attack and destroy fellow Republicans.

OK.  Anybody who wants a fair investigation is now a traitor?  Chaffetz, Portman, Collins, and Graham aren't calling for his resignation; just for him to keep his nose out of the investigation.

Quote from: American Thinker
There were no investigations of Hillary's and Bill's profitable contacts with Russia.  No investigations of Holder and Lynch.  But General Flynn was forced to resign, and now Attorney General Sessions recuses himself from an investigation where there is nothing to investigate.

Speaking to the Russians is much more serious than selling uranium for kickbacks of $2.35 million and $500,000 disguised as "contributions" to the Clinton Foundation and speaking fees.

Again.  There was no evidence that the Clinton Foundation donations had anything to do with the approval of the uranium deal.  This is a red herring.

Just proves again that American Stinker is trying to create something from nothing.
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« Reply #56 on: Mar 03, 2017, 06:39PM »

I don't disparage you the exercise and I'm pretty sure the results won't surprise you in the slightest, but you can't reason with people about positions they clearly didn't reason themselves into (all the more true when they reliably demonstrate a complete failure to understand even the most basic principles of reason).
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« Reply #57 on: Mar 03, 2017, 06:46PM »

Thanks, Bruce. I know Dusty to be a good person, and consider him a friend, so I was going to jump in. You saved me a bunch of effort, but you missed a couple of points.

"There is no charge or evidence that the release of the Podesta emails affected the election.  Hillary won the popular vote.  Even if the release of the Podesta emails swayed some voters, how is it "interference" to release the truth about Hillary?"

THe release of the Podesta e-mails, and the hacking in general, were the least damaging intrusion into the election by the Russians. THe constant barrage of false news and sensational, slanderous propaganda onto right-wing websites was far more damaging. It probably managed to turn the votes of enough fence sitters in the swing states to have an effect.

"First we had General Flynn.  Now  the Opposition Party is in full attack mode.  Nancy Pelosi and Chuck "Lightweight" Schumer demand the resignation of Attorney General Sessions because he spoke with the Russian ambassador."

No. Quite simply, that is a lie. Or, an alternate fact, at best. Pelosi and Schumer are demanding his resignation because he lied under oath, not because he spoke with the Russian Ambassador. We had a President impeached for doing the same on an issue much less germaine to National Security. Whether the lie was intentional, or a matter of forgettfulness or misunderstanding, it was, indeed, a falsehood. As the Chief Law Enforcement Official in the country, the AG should be held to an extremely high standard. Sessions did not meet it.

"This had its intended effect.  Sessions announced on March 3 that he will recuse himself from any investigation of Russian "interference" in our election. Sessions should not have recused himself.  He did nothing wrong.  By recusing himself, he adds credibility to the baseless charges.  He spoke with the Russian ambassador?  Big deal.  He did not sell uranium to Russia.  He did not run guns to Mexico as Eric Holder did in Fast and Furious.  He did not meet, as Loretta Lynch did, with Bill Clinton the day before the FBI questioned Hillary, not under oath, and then the FBI gave Hillary a pass."

Sessions should have recused himself before this issue even came up. It is a clear violation of basic legal ethical conduct for someone who was a party to an event to hold any position what so ever in a legal investigation of that event. Whether he spoke to the Russian Ambassador or not is irrelevant to whether or not he should have recused himself from any investigation into the Drumpf campaign. He was a principal actor in it. The rest of this quote is just inflammatory drivel.

THere is a ton more absurdly ridiculous, not-tethered-to-reality horsebleep in that article. THere is ZERO information in it reflecting any depth of critical thought what so ever. But, it IS par for the course for what passes for "intellectual" writing in the right wing bubble.
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« Reply #58 on: Mar 03, 2017, 07:08PM »

Here's a suggestion:

Take that article from American Thinker that I posted, read it, and unpack it point by point, and bring it back here. At least, it will prove that you read the article.



I won't waste my time. I did however visit the AT website. Just browsing the article titles was enough for me to see what sort of bias they have.

One of them alleges that Obama is a racist. Hilarious.
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« Reply #59 on: Mar 03, 2017, 08:25PM »

Ok Bruce, I don't agree with any of your conclusions, but addressing the points is better than what others have done,

People complain when I don't post the articles, then when I do I get stinko crap.




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« Reply #60 on: Mar 03, 2017, 08:49PM »

People complain when I don't post the articles, then when I do I get stinko crap.

From my perspective, I don't care if you post articles unless you believe they are pertinent to your justification.  I can use google just fine.  What I like to see are arguments to justify the positions you take if such arguments are requested.  And they likely will. Be ready to stand behind your assertions.  Use links to articles if you need to, but know that what those articles state will be 'fact checked' by most folks.  A convincing argument is worth 10 nonsensical linked articles.

Just as others around here have asserted about themselves, and that you seem to ignore, I, like them, am not a leftist liberal.  I'm a right leaning moderate.  Sometimes I find your placing everyone that does not agree with you on the far left a little insulting.  Especially the way you put it forward.

I have no issue with people that think differently as long as they stand by their rhetoric, and are ready and willing to support it with reasoned argument.  There is only one thing I know for sure in this life, and that is I am not always right.  If I say something you think is excrement, then challenge me.  I'll do my best to argue my position.  In the end we may not agree, but at least, if we are intellectually honest, we can still respect one another.

Stand behind your statements with reason.

You have already dismissed Bruce's response, and I suppose you are quite willing to just dismiss Russ' as well.  However both of these are 'reasoned' responses.  Both men have put in some thought on their reply and offer argument (reason) for their response.  They do not come off as 'far left' or 'liberal/leftist/demo', they come off as folks that read, and apply some thought, then respond in such a way that they will support their response.  You can recognize that reasoned support as the words that follow their initial remarks.
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« Reply #61 on: Mar 03, 2017, 09:21PM »

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/nancy-pelosi-sergey-kislyak-meeting-235653

Pelosi must resign. She lied. She met with the same Russian ambassador that has got everybody in a twit.
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« Reply #62 on: Mar 03, 2017, 09:41PM »

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/nancy-pelosi-sergey-kislyak-meeting-235653

Pelosi must resign. She lied. She met with the same Russian ambassador that has got everybody in a twit.
Good!  You made an argument!

So, I'd shoot back, did she even talk with him at that 'meeting', or was he just there?

I once played my much missed King 4BF in an ensemble for prime minister Pierre Trudeau (father of our current PM) at a function he was presenting (circa 1974).  I was in the same room with him (a big, big room), and after our performance he stood and addressed us and thanked us for our music ... so would your assertion  be that I met with him?

I've never met Trudeau Sr.  He, if he were still alive, would not know me from a nail in the wall.  Not even 3 seconds after we played for him.
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« Reply #63 on: Mar 04, 2017, 04:23AM »

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/nancy-pelosi-sergey-kislyak-meeting-235653

Pelosi must resign. She lied. She met with the same Russian ambassador that has got everybody in a twit.

Still missing the point. Intentionally? Willfully? She didn't lie under oath about meeting him. She is not the AG of the USA.
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« Reply #64 on: Mar 04, 2017, 04:52AM »

This from the UK Sun.

He(Trump) wrote: “The first meeting Jeff Sessions had with the Russian Amb was set up by the Obama Administration under education program for 100 Ambs…”

He(Trump) added: “Just out: The same Russian Ambassador that met Jeff Sessions visited the Obama White House 22 times, and 4 times last year alone.”

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« Reply #65 on: Mar 04, 2017, 05:20AM »

This from the UK Sun.

He(Trump) wrote: “The first meeting Jeff Sessions had with the Russian Amb was set up by the Obama Administration under education program for 100 Ambs…”

He(Trump) added: “Just out: The same Russian Ambassador that met Jeff Sessions visited the Obama White House 22 times, and 4 times last year alone.”



Still refusing to address the actual issue. It DOESN"T MATTER whether Sessions met with the Russian Ambassador once or a 1000 times. OR if it was arranged by Santa Claus. HE LIED UNDER OATH. It was poor taste for Clinton to get a blow job from an intern, but it wasn't an impeachable offense until HE LIED UNDER OATH about it. IT's really not hard, Dusty. About 2nd grade logical capacity.
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« Reply #66 on: Mar 04, 2017, 05:51AM »

Still refusing to address the actual issue. It DOESN"T MATTER whether Sessions met with the Russian Ambassador once or a 1000 times. OR if it was arranged by Santa Claus. HE LIED UNDER OATH. It was poor taste for Clinton to get a blow job from an intern, but it wasn't an impeachable offense until HE LIED UNDER OATH about it. IT's really not hard, Dusty. About 2nd grade logical capacity.


He didn't lie under oath. He answered the question as it was worded correctly. Sorry you can't see that. He never spoke to the Russian Amb regarding the 2016 campaign. You want to mix contexts to prove a lousy argument. Bad.

Actually, your complaint should be with Franken who can't ask a cogent question.
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« Reply #67 on: Mar 04, 2017, 06:17AM »



I once played my much missed King 4BF in an ensemble for prime minister Pierre Trudeau (father of our current PM) at a function he was presenting (circa 1974).  I was in the same room with him (a big, big room), and after our performance he stood and addressed us and thanked us for our music ... so would your assertion  be that I met with him?



Years ago I played with a local symphony for a visit to Williamsburg by the French ambassador.  I didn't play with that group regularly but the regular was on vacation and I subbed. It was a freebie but we were fed, and it must have been a top chef at that resort, because after all these years I still remember how good that food was.  I don't remember the ambassador's name or what he looked like, but -that chicken!  in that sauce! 
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« Reply #68 on: Mar 04, 2017, 06:46AM »

He didn't lie under oath. He answered the question as it was worded correctly. Sorry you can't see that. He never spoke to the Russian Amb regarding the 2016 campaign. You want to mix contexts to prove a lousy argument. Bad.

Actually, your complaint should be with Franken who can't ask a cogent question.

Session's response to a written question from Leahy:


    Leahy: Several of the President-Elect’s nominees or senior advisers have Russian ties. Have you been in contact with anyone connected to any part of the Russian government about the 2016 election, either before or after election day?

    Sessions: No.
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« Reply #69 on: Mar 04, 2017, 06:53AM »

“There is enough wiggle room that makes a perjury prosecution [against Sessions] difficult,” Eliason said. Unless there is some bombshell, he said, such as emails or notes from the conversation that suggest Sessions was acting in his role as a campaign surrogate, “I don’t see it as a criminal case.”   http://www.factcheck.org/2017/03/did-sessions-lie


Sessions used campaign funds for travel that included Russian meeting: report
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/322145-sessions-used-campaign-funds-on-convention-reports
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« Reply #70 on: Mar 04, 2017, 07:13AM »

Sessions Met With Russia’s Ambassador A Day After Meeting With Ukraine’s

Teaser:
"That visit occurred a day after Sessions met with Valeriy Chaly, Ukraine’s ambassador.

Fox News reported that Sessions’ schedules showed those two meetings and others with nearly 30 ambassadors from various nations between April 14 and Nov. 11.

And those two meetings took place just as Russia and Ukraine were hammering out a ceasefire plan in a conflict between pro-Russia separatists operating in eastern Ukraine."


http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/02/sessions-met-with-russias-ambassador-a-day-after-meeting-with-ukraines/#ixzz4aN1GIX00


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« Reply #71 on: Mar 04, 2017, 07:19AM »

“There is enough wiggle room that makes a perjury prosecution [against Sessions] difficult,” Eliason said. Unless there is some bombshell, he said, such as emails or notes from the conversation that suggest Sessions was acting in his role as a campaign surrogate, “I don’t see it as a criminal case.”   http://www.factcheck.org/2017/03/did-sessions-lie


Sessions used campaign funds for travel that included Russian meeting: report
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/322145-sessions-used-campaign-funds-on-convention-reports

I have watched the testimony numerous times. Franken did not at any time use the phrase, "about the campaign". His question was, "do you know of anybody connected to the campaign who met with anyone from the Russian government". PERIOD. Sessions admitted to being a surrogate for the campaign and denied having met anyone from the Russian government and was unable to comment further. It was clearly an untruth. I agree it PROBABLY does not rise to the level of perjury, BUT the AG of the USA should/ needs to be held to a far higher standard than your run of the mill Senator or Rep. Sessions clearly did not meet that standard. HE needs to resign.
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« Reply #72 on: Mar 04, 2017, 07:30AM »

I have watched the testimony numerous times. Franken did not at any time use the phrase, "about the campaign". His question was, "do you know of anybody connected to the campaign who met with anyone from the Russian government". PERIOD. Sessions admitted to being a surrogate for the campaign and denied having met anyone from the Russian government and was unable to comment further. It was clearly an untruth. I agree it PROBABLY does not rise to the level of perjury, BUT the AG of the USA should/ needs to be held to a far higher standard than your run of the mill Senator or Rep. Sessions clearly did not meet that standard. HE needs to resign.

You guys are holding him to a higher standard than you've ever used for any demo. LOL!

The whole purpose and context for Car Trunk Franken's inquiry was about the 2016 campaign. Sessions meetings were about other topics and important matters.
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« Reply #73 on: Mar 04, 2017, 07:42AM »

Dusty,

Sessions was on a trip paid for by campaign funds.  That would make him a campaign surrogate while on that trip.  While on that trip he met with the Russian Ambassador. That would mean that he met with the Russian Ambassador while acting as a campaign surrogate.

Are you okay with that?

This question is not about whom gets held to what standards by anyone of any idealogical bent.  It's about this meeting specifically.
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« Reply #74 on: Mar 04, 2017, 07:48AM »

Dusty,

Sessions was on a trip paid for by campaign funds.  That would make him a campaign surrogate while on that trip.  While on that trip he met with the Russian Ambassador. That would mean that he met with the Russian Ambassador while acting as a campaign surrogate.

Are you okay with that?

This question is not about whom gets held to what standards by anyone of any idealogical bent.  It's about this meeting specifically.


If the trip was paid for by campaign funds, that's one topic. However, the content of the meetings is what we're discussing. He was a Senator on a trip regarding issues between the Ukraine, Russia and Crimea. Nothing to do with the campaign. BTW, the meeting produced an agreement between them too.

Witch hunters don't care about facts. They're just wanting to stir the pot when there is nothing in the pot. LOL!

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« Reply #75 on: Mar 04, 2017, 07:58AM »

It's very important for citizens to ignore suspicious activity among politicians because, well... "witch hunting"!


But we're not hunting for witches. We're looking at an elected leader and his entourage with one damning fact after another being revealed after they had promised us that no such thing could possibly be true.

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« Reply #76 on: Mar 04, 2017, 08:09AM »

It's very important for citizens to ignore suspicious activity among politicians because, well... "witch hunting"!


But we're not hunting for witches. We're looking at an elected leader and his entourage with one damning fact after another being revealed after they had promised us that no such thing could possibly be true.



Actually, there was not any nefarious activity with Sessions, so this line of inquiry is just wishful thinking for the liberals.

Accepting the explanation that Clinton and Lynch were talking about grand children on the tarmac is a perfect example of being a useful idiot. Not this about Sessions.

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« Reply #77 on: Mar 04, 2017, 08:13AM »

If the trip was paid for by campaign funds, that's one topic. However, the content of the meetings is what we're discussing. He was a Senator on a trip regarding issues between the Ukraine, Russia and Crimea. Nothing to do with the campaign. BTW, the meeting produced an agreement between them too.

Witch hunters don't care about facts. They're just wanting to stir the pot when there is nothing in the pot. LOL!



No,the question of who paid for the trip is not "one topic", it is the central issue of the topic. You dismissed Session's answer to Franken's question based on the context of Franken' question, which left Sessions leeway to answer in the context of a government official. Franken's "context" to which I believe you were alluding, is that of a campaign reresentative (also known as surragate) meeting with any Russians. 

The content of Session's meeting in Cleveland is irrelevant. The fact is that Sessions met with the Ambassador on a campaign funded trip. Session's wiggle when confronted with his denial of ever meeting any Russians was that he never did it in the capacity of a campaign surrogate.  This has now been shown to be untrue.
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« Reply #78 on: Mar 04, 2017, 08:25AM »

Actually, there was not any nefarious activity with Sessions, so this line of inquiry is just wishful thinking for the liberals.

Accepting the explanation that Clinton and Lynch were talking about grand children on the tarmac is a perfect example of being a useful idiot. Not this about Sessions.



Hilarious that you of all people use the words 'facts'
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« Reply #79 on: Mar 04, 2017, 08:28AM »

If the trip was paid for by campaign funds, that's one topic. However, the content of the meetings is what we're discussing. He was a Senator on a trip regarding issues between the Ukraine, Russia and Crimea. Nothing to do with the campaign. BTW, the meeting produced an agreement between them too.

Witch hunters don't care about facts. They're just wanting to stir the pot when there is nothing in the pot. LOL!



You are conflating two seperate meetings. It was the meeting in his offices that were with the Ambassadors from Russia and Ukraine, not the one in Cleveland. I know keeping more than one thing at a time in focus is a challenge, but, you can do it.
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« Reply #80 on: Mar 04, 2017, 08:42AM »

Still no curiosity over the lynch/Clinton meeting on the tarmac. LOL!

I'm glad that you guys are entertained. It makes for a more fun weekend.  :D
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« Reply #81 on: Mar 04, 2017, 09:00AM »

Still no curiosity over the lynch/Clinton meeting on the tarmac. LOL!

I'm glad that you guys are entertained. It makes for a more fun weekend.  :D

That is not the topic of this thread. It could lend for interesting discussion, though. How about you start a thread on that topic?
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« Reply #82 on: Mar 04, 2017, 09:58AM »

Still no curiosity over the lynch/Clinton meeting on the tarmac. LOL!

I'm glad that you guys are entertained. It makes for a more fun weekend.  :D

Lame shot at diverting attention from the issue (Session's lies about meeting the Russians).

I'm surprised you haven't brought up Bill and Monica. Because that's EXACTLY the same, right?
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« Reply #83 on: Mar 04, 2017, 10:29AM »

Still no curiosity over the lynch/Clinton meeting on the tarmac. LOL!

I'm glad that you guys are entertained. It makes for a more fun weekend.  :D

Why would I have an interest in that sofa when we're talking about these apples? No rational comparison between the two issues. Lynch recused herself immediately after the meeting rathger than waiting to be called on it as Sessions did.
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« Reply #84 on: Mar 04, 2017, 10:34AM »

Still no curiosity over the lynch/Clinton meeting on the tarmac. LOL!

I'm glad that you guys are entertained. It makes for a more fun weekend.  :D

I think Lynch showed terrible judgment in meeting with Clinton, because it created at least the appearance of impropriety. She seemed to agree with that assessment.

I'm not sure how that exonerates Sessions or Flynn or the rest.

The fact that you see things in terms of 'you guys' and 'us guys' is exactly why it's hard for you to argue from principle. If your whole approach is to choose a side, then say the worst things possible about the other side and the best things about your own, your principles will continually change.
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« Reply #85 on: Mar 04, 2017, 10:43AM »

DDickerson, regarding your 'Car Trunk' moniker for Franken:

https://www.minnpost.com/braublog/2008/11/minneapolis-election-director-speaks-ballots-my-car-story-false

The story that a bunch of ballots were left for days in the Election Director's care is plainly false. This is another example of how 'you guys' are interested in whether a story helps 'your side' and incurious or indifferent as to whether it's actually true.

It's ironic that you specifically accuse Democrats of making up stories as excuses for losing an election, then you do that very thing in your post.
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« Reply #86 on: Mar 04, 2017, 10:44AM »

Why would I have an interest in that sofa when we're talking about these apples? No rational comparison between the two issues. Lynch recused herself immediately after the meeting rathger than waiting to be called on it as Sessions did.


No, she did not recuse herself. However, it's telling that you guys dismiss her and show concern over Sessions.
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« Reply #87 on: Mar 04, 2017, 10:46AM »


It's ironic that you specifically accuse Democrats of making up stories as excuses for losing an election, then you do that very thing in your post.

geez, that's what the demos are doing now. Making up stories for why they lost the election. LOL!
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« Reply #88 on: Mar 04, 2017, 10:53AM »

No, she did not recuse herself. However, it's telling that you guys dismiss her and show concern over Sessions.

Also more telling that you don't think sessions should have recused, but lync should have. You see... "tit for tat" goes both way. Funny how the gop is now fussing about the dems using their own tactics against them.
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« Reply #89 on: Mar 04, 2017, 10:55AM »

No, she did not recuse herself. However, it's telling that you guys dismiss her and show concern over Sessions.

She said she would accept whatever the results of the FBI probe were.  Isn't that recusing?  Recusal means you will not interfere with something because of potential conflict of interest.  It should not be confused with resigning.
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« Reply #90 on: Mar 04, 2017, 10:57AM »

geez, that's what the demos are doing now. Making up stories for why they lost the election. LOL!

I'm well aware that that's your opinion, because it's one of the ones you repeat. But you're apparently doing the same thing in propagating the 'car trunk' myth, which was used as an excuse for Coleman losing.

Neither that nor Loretta Lynch has anything to do with the guilt or innocence of Trump's cabinet, advisers, and campaign staff, or of the appropriateness of their behavior, which doesn't rely entirely on legal guilt or innocence. I think what Hillary did was wrong, even if she wasn't found legally guilty. I believe the same of Flynn, and so does Trump--he said he no longer trusted Flynn.


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« Reply #91 on: Mar 04, 2017, 10:58AM »

She said she would accept whatever the results of the FBI probe were.  Isn't that recusing?  Recusal means you will not interfere with something because of potential conflict of interest.  It should not be confused with resigning.

No. It is not a recusal.
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« Reply #92 on: Mar 04, 2017, 10:59AM »

I'm well aware that that's your opinion, because it's one of the ones you repeat. But you're apparently doing the same thing in propagating the 'car trunk' myth, which was used as an excuse for Coleman losing.

Neither that nor Loretta Lynch has anything to do with the guilt or innocence of Trump's cabinet, advisers, and campaign staff, or of the appropriateness of their behavior, which doesn't rely entirely on legal guilt or innocence. I think what Hillary did was wrong, even if she wasn't found legally guilty. I believe the same of Flynn, and so does Trump--he said he no longer trusted Flynn.




So there. Everyone is t1t for t@t.
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« Reply #93 on: Mar 04, 2017, 11:01AM »

No, she did not recuse herself. However, it's telling that you guys dismiss her and show concern over Sessions.

Again, 'you guys'. I didn't dismiss Lynch's behavior. I wouldn't have been surprised if Obama had asked for her resignation over the incident.

However, after she was rightly criticized for her meeting with Bill, she announced that she would be leaving the decision whether to prosecute to someone else. If you don't want to count that as 'recusal', you're surely splitting hairs, but it suits your purpose.

To Sessions's credit, he also chose to recuse himself, and properly so.

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« Reply #94 on: Mar 04, 2017, 11:05AM »

So there. Everyone is t1t for t@t.

No, not everyone is.

If you want to criticize Loretta Lynch, I'll join you, but she isn't AG, neither Hillary nor Obama is president, and none of this has anything to do with the merits of the current situation. (I realize that the idea of judging something on its merits must seem novel to you). I don't see anyone else dredging up false stories in a t1t-for-t@t manner, as you did with the Franken story.

The fact that you're trying to create this diversion bespeaks a certain desperation, and shows that you don't have much of a defense of the Trump admin and campaign's shenanigans.
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« Reply #95 on: Mar 04, 2017, 11:13AM »

What is the distinction between taking yourself out of the decision and recusing yourself from the decision?
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« Reply #96 on: Mar 04, 2017, 11:24AM »

No. It is not a recusal.

Oh?  Please edumacate me.  What is  recusal?
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« Reply #97 on: Mar 04, 2017, 11:26AM »

What is the distinction between taking yourself out of the decision and recusing yourself from the decision?

Someone with more legal knowledge than I can surely correct me on this.

Recusal is typically done ahead of a deliberation or investigation where a person might have an inappropriate interest or conflict, and means that the person won't participate from the beginning. Sessions is recusing himself from a hypothetical prosecution in which he has not yet participated.

In the Lynch situation, the investigation of Hillary was nearly concluded before the conversation with Bill Clinton. Lynch could not have retroactively left herself out of the investigation, so she barred herself from any decision as to whether to prosecute and left it to someone else.

I think both Sessions's and Lynch's responses to the controversies were appropriate to the situations presented.
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« Reply #98 on: Mar 04, 2017, 11:32AM »

:  to disqualify (oneself) as judge in a particular case; broadly : to remove (oneself) from participation to avoid a conflict of interest

Emphasis added.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/recuse

It appears that Lynch's voluntary removal from participating in the prosecution decision indeed meets at least the dictionary definition.
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« Reply #99 on: Mar 04, 2017, 11:43AM »

To put DDickerson's hairsplitting into context, Don Lemon apparently said that Loretta Lynch had recused herself, and all the nutjob websites went ape over it. It's probably good to keep up with what the extremists are up to, and convenient to have our point man here to digest and regurgitate it for us so we don't have to wade through the slime.

The further context is that Trump's alternative-fact-based administration is inconvenienced by press coverage, and thus has a vested interest in this sort of nit-picking, which they then use to 'prove' that CNN and other news outlets are fake. If this is what they come up with as 'fake news', it's pretty weak tea. We can fairly assume that the people making a big deal about this, present company included, never had the slightest concern or curiosity as to the actual meaning of recusal. It's just a talking point, and its very weakness relies on gullible talkers.
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« Reply #100 on: Mar 04, 2017, 11:52AM »

Lynch herself said there was no reason for her to recuse herself:

"During a House Judiciary Committee hearing with Attorney General Loretta Lynch on Tuesday morning, committee Chair Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) asked Lynch why she did not recuse herself from the investigation into Hillary Clinton's email use, suggesting that Lynch decided not to prosecute the former secretary of state for political reasons.

Goodlatte mentioned that Lynch was appointed as U.S. Attorney in the Eastern District of New York by then-President Bill Clinton in 1999.

"Given she was a political appointee of your current boss and more importantly the wife of your previous boss, why did you not see fit to recuse yourself from the investigation? Wouldn't recusal or appointment of a special prosecutor have removed any appearance of impropriety given your service during Bill Clinton's presidency?" Goodlatte asked Lynch about the investigation into Clinton's private email server.

In response, Lynch told Goodlatte "there was no need for recusal or an independent prosecutor that the investigation."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/loretta-lynch-bob-goodlatte-clinton-recusal


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« Reply #101 on: Mar 04, 2017, 11:55AM »

Example of recusal - a judge who has a family member come before him will recuse himself, handing over the trial to somebody else.  A judge who owns part of a business same thing.  Not just not interfering, but stepping away completely.

Long thread, so if this is already posted my pardon, but

SEN. AL FRANKEN: "If there was any evidence that anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign communicated with the Russian government in the course of this (2016) campaign, what would you do?," the Minnesota Democrat asked.

SESSIONS: "I'm not aware of any of those activities. I have been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign and I did not have communications with the Russians."

So, under oath, he said he had no communications with the Russians.  He lied under oath.
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« Reply #102 on: Mar 04, 2017, 12:05PM »

You know, what's interesting about Sessions's response is that the question didn't make any direct reference to Sessions's own behavior toward the Russians at all.

The question was about how he would perform his duties as AG in the event that evidence turned up regarding communication between the Trump campaign and the Russians. It would have been easy to answer in the hypothetical: "If there was any evidence of illegality, it would be pursued--no one is above the law, including the president." I'll bet he wishes he answered that way.

Instead, he veered off into defending himself against allegations of his own contacts with Russians during the campaign, even though the subject had never really been brought up, including by Franken.

I heard a joke to the effect that it's like your wife saying, "The neighbor's lawn sure looks great," and answering, "I never slept with her!"
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« Reply #103 on: Mar 04, 2017, 03:04PM »

SEN. AL FRANKEN: "If there was any evidence that anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign communicated with the Russian government in the course of this (2016) campaign, what would you do?," the Minnesota Democrat asked.
 
SESSIONS: "I'm not aware of any of those activities. I have been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign and I did not have communications with the Russians."
 
So, under oath, he said he had no communications with the Russians.  He lied under oath.

Anyone and everyone with a few functioning brain cells who isn't both extremely inclined toward self-deception and so good at it that even "believing" blatant absurdities comes easily--so good that a sense of what's credible or reasonable has no bearing at all on it--everyone else, already gets it. Those who don't ... well, why would you think reason has anything at all to do with their thinking or perceptions? Facts don't matter to Trump, nor do they matter to his fans who actually buy his nonsense, because they're all about post-truth and Alternative Facts™ and have too little intellectual integrity and too casual a relationship with honesty to even actually care what's real and true. They just know they like Trump, probably specifically because he's amoral, doesn't care what's real or true, and deplorable. To them they like Trump = Trump is right and good and virtuous ... etc. They don't understand any other, i.e. any actual, standards.
 
So, bottom line, they're going to make bleating noises in favor of Trump and to whine about his opposition and inconvenient facts. The complaints of these Trump fans should be given their due--which means about the same consideration and credence as any chronological two-year-old's complaints about fairness and such. Don't give them a constant stage so they can set the tone int he public square and be the dominant impact on the social climate. That's how Trump happened. Let's keep the damage of that toxic influence from taking us even lower.
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« Reply #104 on: Mar 04, 2017, 09:28PM »


Anyone and everyone with a few functioning brain cells who isn't both extremely inclined toward self-deception and so good at it that even "believing" blatant absurdities comes easily--so good that a sense of what's credible or reasonable has no bearing at all on it--everyone else, already gets it. Those who don't ... well, why would you think reason has anything at all to do with their thinking or perceptions? Facts don't matter to Trump, nor do they matter to his fans who actually buy his nonsense, because they're all about post-truth and Alternative Facts™ and have too little intellectual integrity and too casual a relationship with honesty to even actually care what's real and true. They just know they like Trump, probably specifically because he's amoral, doesn't care what's real or true, and deplorable. To them they like Trump = Trump is right and good and virtuous ... etc. They don't understand any other, i.e. any actual, standards.
 
So, bottom line, they're going to make bleating noises in favor of Trump and to whine about his opposition and inconvenient facts. The complaints of these Trump fans should be given their due--which means about the same consideration and credence as any chronological two-year-old's complaints about fairness and such. Don't give them a constant stage so they can set the tone int he public square and be the dominant impact on the social climate. That's how Trump happened. Let's keep the damage of that toxic influence from taking us even lower.
Why are we trying to argue with DD and his ilk?  What is the point?

Cogito ergo sum ... not going to argue anymore with someone that does not.
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« Reply #105 on: Mar 05, 2017, 05:30AM »

Why are we trying to argue with DD and his ilk?  What is the point?

not going to argue anymore

That about explains it. I'm trying to have a discussion, and you guys only want to argue.

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« Reply #106 on: Mar 05, 2017, 06:27AM »

Why are we trying to argue with DD and his ilk?  What is the point?
 
Cogito ergo sum ... not going to argue anymore with someone that does not.

Ex-actly ...
 
To further explain this situation (since an excellent example was conveniently if not at all surprisingly provided just above), at least in matters of ideology and of social and political consideration and discourse, there's a striking disconnect between most authoritarians' understanding of the ideas and their understanding of application. A great simile is dancing, and young children learning to do it. A child's mind and body simply haven't developed to where they can dance very well. They can see what it looks like when skilled adult dancers do it, but they can't make those movements happen in anything much like the same way themselves, no matter how hard they try. There's a very real and very physical disconnect between the child's conception of dance, and their attempts at making their bodies do it. It's hilarious! And in the context of children trying to dance it's a joy to observe. But the dance we're talking about here has serious implications and effects on many people--not such a joy to watch, and we don't get to just watch--we have to try and dance with them as they flail about randomly, claiming (knowing--Dunning-Kruger yet again) they're doing it right and the real dancers are incompetent. Again, The Donald is, I certainly hope, a crystal clear demonstration of that fact.
 
The simile ends at the dance class though, because children will develop the physical apparatus in their brains and bodies so that they can learn to dance like the pros--some will in fact become professional dancers--but the analog children (the Alt-Right/Alternative Facts™/authoritarian types) think they are dancers, and that those who flail about randomly as they do are the best of the pros--that the inability to control their bodies and make them conform to what the mind is picturing is the precise opposite, and that those who so plainly to the rest of us have developed those skills to an exceptional degree are the ones who don't know what they're doing. The disconnect in these authoritarians' psychology is very real and every bit as much a matter of function as the lack of body and brain development in children trying to dance. You have to wait until those things develop before you can interact with them, just as you have to wait for a child to transform into an adult mind and body before they're going to be eligible to dance at the highest level (or just to do it well, really).
 
I have to wonder if this trolling in the Interweb has been spilling over into Real Life more and more as people who are just trolls in general are encouraged by the psychology that online trolling exposes for examination and exploration.
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« Reply #107 on: Mar 07, 2017, 12:45PM »

Quote
I have to wonder if this trolling in the Interweb has been spilling over into Real Life more and more as people who are just trolls in general are encouraged by the psychology that online trolling exposes for examination and exploration.

Yes.  Absolutely.  10,000%.  At this point, I can't tell if Mr. Dickerson actually believes the doublespeak he's spouting or is simply trolling everyone who tries to have a meaningful interaction with him.  When you can't tell the troll from the truth, then there's no longer any difference between them.

I was teaching my son some magic tricks last night.  He's 5, and a very concrete thinker.  I told him that in magic, there's one hand that moves and one hand that hides.  The hand that moves is meant to distract you and keep you from seeing what's really happening.  So, in learning magic, you've got to practice moving one hand and keeping the other hand very steady.

Answering questions about Jeff Sessions and his conversations with the Russian ambassador by talking about Loretta Lynch, the way Al Franken's asked his questions, and Hillary Clinton is literally telling people to "look over here" while the steady hand completes the deception.  And if you engage with that, with Dusty Dickerson and his ilk, and humor them in that bottomless argument, then you're going to lose.  You're going to lose because at that point there's no difference between trolling, doublespeak, or willful ignorance.  It's all the same. 

Jeff Sessions lied.  Period.  He got caught.  Period.  He might not have lied intentionally, he might not have known he lied.  But he lied and the record shows it.  The only response to the slight of hand is, "You're protecting lies with half truths" or "You're protecting lies with redirection."  You can't have a reasonable conversation when someone operantly refuses to meet you half way.  You just can't.

(I fully expect an ad hominem attack to follow.)
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« Reply #108 on: Mar 07, 2017, 01:25PM »


Jeff Sessions lied.  Period.  He got caught.  Period.  He might not have lied intentionally, he might not have known he lied.  B

Do you realize that what you just posted made no sense at all?
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« Reply #109 on: Mar 07, 2017, 07:36PM »

Do you realize that what you just posted made no sense at all?

What?  Jeff Sessions said he had no meetings with any Russian dignitaries.  He had two meetings with the Russian Ambassador.  Was it because of his office?  Was it because of the Trump Campaign?  We don't really know.  But he claimed he had no meetings and he did.  So he lied.
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« Reply #110 on: Mar 07, 2017, 07:38PM »

What?  Jeff Sessions said he had no meetings with any Russian dignitaries.  He had two meetings with the Russian Ambassador.  Was it because of his office?  Was it because of the Trump Campaign?  We don't really know.  But he claimed he had no meetings and he did.  So he lied.
But... only democrats can lie.. and sessions is a republican. No sense, I tell ya!

So goes normal republican "logic" these days. The only certainty is party above county, and if something doesn't come to advantage self or party, it is meaningless. "Morals" "ethics" "sense" "care" ... empty buzz words to a party of false prophets and a god that is printed and held close by those in the fold.
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« Reply #111 on: Mar 07, 2017, 07:39PM »

Do you realize that what you just posted made no sense at all?
Wheeeeee!
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« Reply #112 on: Mar 07, 2017, 08:22PM »

Many on the far right only understand lying as intentional. They may not intentionally choose to ignore most lying because it's so convenient, but I'm sure they sleep much better that way.
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« Reply #113 on: Mar 07, 2017, 08:26PM »

Quote
Jeff Sessions lied.  Period.  He got caught.  Period.  He might not have lied intentionally, he might not have known he lied.
 

Do you realize that what you just posted made no sense at all?

Perhaps DD is referring to the last sentence.

I think you have to intend to lie for it to be a lie. Otherwise, you're just mistaken or misinformed.


However, I don't think Jeff Sessions was mistaken or uninformed about his own activities.


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« Reply #114 on: Mar 07, 2017, 08:52PM »

 

Do you realize that what you just posted made no sense at all?


Perhaps DD is referring to the last sentence.

I think you have to intend to lie for it to be a lie. Otherwise, you're just mistaken or misinformed.


However, I don't think Jeff Sessions was mistaken or uniformed about his own activities.




At least one person knows what a lie is.  Evil
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« Reply #115 on: Mar 07, 2017, 11:09PM »

At least one person knows what a lie is.  Evil

No, I get it, too. There's an element of intent to lying, rather than simply being mistaken.

To give an entirely hypothetical example, if a person spreads a false story about James Rosen being wiretapped, that hypothetical person might just be ignorant, ill-informed, gullible, incurious, or largely indifferent to truth and falsehood. That's not automatically a lie.

If that same, entirely hypothetical person accuses a forum member of plagiarism, without any basis and without offering any evidence to support it, then that hypothetical person is a liar, because it's intentional.

Did I get it right?
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« Reply #116 on: Mar 08, 2017, 05:05AM »

At least one person knows what a lie is.  Evil

If the only supposed difference here is whether sessions understood that he was uttering a falsehood at the time he went out of his way to give it, then two things come to mind:

1) Recusal is still the appropriate course of action. He should not be investigating a campaign he was involved in. To do otherwise renders the investigation very very suspect.
2) If he went out of his way to provide information that was blatantly wrong, but did it on accident and on a whim while under oath, then this is probably not a good person to be attorney general and should likely step down. That's generally called incompetence. And not a good thing for the top lawyer in the country to flub up legal situations so blatantly.

Either way... the GOP attempts to say that sessions is all good still only rely on diversion and distraction and try to pretend that their own arguments cast sessions as incompetent for the role they appointed him to.
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« Reply #117 on: Mar 08, 2017, 05:25AM »

I think you have to intend to lie for it to be a lie. Otherwise, you're just mistaken or misinformed.
I'm not so sure.

So, someone of wanton ignorance is forgiven of all lies, because they have no idea what they were talking about and did not intentionally 'lie' about something due to not having confirmed the veracity of their comments?

I know absolutely nothing about Trumps personal activities when he was 40 years old.  I know I know nothing about them since I have never read anything about them or heard anything about them. So, now if I make the statement "Trump raped an underage girl with one of his buddies when he was 40." and it turns out to be untrue, should I be excused from having lied because I was speaking through my arse?

Naw, a lie is a lie.  If you make a statement you cannot stand behind, and it's not true, you lied, whether or not you intended it to be a lie.
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« Reply #118 on: Mar 08, 2017, 05:29AM »

At least one person knows what a lie is.  Evil
I think you have to intend to lie for it to be a lie. Otherwise, you're just mistaken or misinformed.

Hence the fact, at least for now, he is not being charged with perjury.
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« Reply #119 on: Mar 08, 2017, 05:59AM »



Naw, a lie is a lie.  If you make a statement you cannot stand behind, and it's not true, you lied, whether or not you intended it to be a lie.

I draw the line slightly lower.

An intentional falsehood is of course a lie.

A false statement than could have been known to be false is also a lie, if a reasonable person would have checked.
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« Reply #120 on: Mar 08, 2017, 06:27AM »

I think you have to intend to lie for it to be a lie. Otherwise, you're just mistaken or misinformed.
In that case dogmatism and intellectual irresponsibility get a pass--most lies come from those who first convinced themselves of the lie.
 
There's a point at which intellectual negligence is indistinguishable in any way from lying--it's lying all the same, just from a slightly different angle.
 
Lying includes advocating self-deceptions to others and imposing or attempting to impose your own intellectual negligence upon others.
 
Lying is being directly responsible for dishonesty or deception, and again, intellectual irresponsibility and negligence are just applications of dishonesty and deception, and elf-deception counts when it spills over onto the outside world. If you only want to satisfy yourself that you're honest when you're not, you'll be far more inclined to stick with overt or willful intent as a necessary element of lying. If you take honesty seriously you recognize and acknowledge and address the lies behind the end results. That's where it all starts, after all.
 
However, I don't think Jeff Sessions was mistaken or uninformed about his own activities.
Well ... there's also that.
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« Reply #121 on: Mar 08, 2017, 08:24AM »

Do you realize that what you just posted made no sense at all?

There's that ad hominem I predicted.

It makes perfect sense unless you're trolling. 

You can lie unintentionally.  Sessions might not have caught that Franken was asking about all contact with the Russians, and then he didn't correct himself.  That's a lie.

You can lie and not intend to.  Sessions might not have remembered either of his specifically-paid-for meetings with the Russians.  He may have meant "no" when he said "I don't know of anybody that's spoken to the Russians."  But when the tape and the meetings were made public, it was Sessions' responsibility to say, "You know what, I made an error.  I was wrong.  I did meet with Russian officials during the time in question, and I would like to formally amend my testimony for the record." 

He didn't do that.  He made up an excuse.  That makes the statement a lie, plain and simple.

And yes, being willfully ignorant is the same thing as lying.  It's the spreading of dishonesty.
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« Reply #122 on: Mar 08, 2017, 10:05AM »

I draw the line slightly lower.

An intentional falsehood is of course a lie.

A false statement than could have been known to be false is also a lie, if a reasonable person would have checked.

That's a good point. Saying something without having any particular reason to believe it, or without making any effort to verify if it's true, is still dishonest.

I've noticed there's a sort of ecosystem for spreading these stories, and it's apparently quite efficient. After the lie about Obama wiretapping James Rosen popped up on the forum, I noticed that someone brought it up in every Facebook discussion of the wiretap allegations.

Trump understands this perfectly--it doesn't matter if what he says is true, as long as it's useful. For Trump, and for a lot of his supporters, saying something that's not true seems to be viewed roughly the way an NBA player might view getting away with a goal tend--whatever works, right? So his claim that over 100 Gitmo detainees released by Obama returned to terrorism (in fact, nearly all of them were released by Bush) works nearly as well being false as true: many people will repeat it because they like the way it sounds, or because they don't read or believe the credible sources that debunk it.

The other thing I've noticed is that when people spread these stories, they never seem to appreciate when you point out that they're hoaxes. I would be grateful to be told that something I was saying wasn't actually true, because I'd quit saying it. It's a little embarrassing, like being told your fly's down, but it's better to know. Besides, if a person were genuinely outraged over something, wouldn't they be relieved to learn it wasn't true?

So, yeah, people who spread these 'alternative facts' are doing something very near to lying. Indifference to truth is still dishonesty.
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« Reply #123 on: Mar 08, 2017, 10:13AM »

For the record, james Rosen's phone records and emails were subpoenaed but he was not wiretapped. From a Fox News interview:

Quote
I have to clarify that I was not wiretapped, my parents were not wiretapped, which is where you place a listening device on someone’s telephone line and you listen to their conversations,” Rosen said. He continued, “What happened to me was that the Attorney General, Eric Holder, under Barack Obama as president secretly designated me a criminal co-conspirator and a flight risk and thereby had a federal judge give the government permission to rifle through all my gmails."
[emphasis added]

http://hotair.com/archives/2017/03/05/james-rosen-on-being-the-target-of-surveillance-under-the-obama-administration/

I actually agree that the Justice Dept. went a bit overboard on this case, because it seemed to go after the press too hard. But you can object to Holder's behavior without lying about it. The point of the lie is to say, Obama wiretapped someone before, so he probably did it again. It kicks up some useful dust for a person who's more interested in partisanship than accuracy.

There's further dishonesty in making a comparison between the two situations. The Rosen subpoena was pursuant to a legitimate national security concern over leaks that could compromise ongoing operations. The investigation led to several convictions. On the other hand, if a president wiretapped a candidate for political reasons, it would be a crime.

Whaddya wanna bet the the people spreading the fake story on this forum will continue to do so elsewhere, knowing it's untrue?
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« Reply #124 on: Mar 08, 2017, 03:07PM »



You can lie unintentionally.  Sessions might not have caught that Franken was asking about all contact with the Russians, and then he didn't correct himself.  That's a lie.

You can lie and not intend to.  Sessions might not have remembered either of his specifically-paid-for meetings with the Russians.  He may have meant "no" when he said "I don't know of anybody that's spoken to the Russians."  But when the tape and the meetings were made public, it was Sessions' responsibility to say, "You know what, I made an error.  I was wrong.  I did meet with Russian officials during the time in question, and I would like to formally amend my testimony for the record." 

He didn't do that.  He made up an excuse.  That makes the statement a lie, plain and simple.

And yes, being willfully ignorant is the same thing as lying.  It's the spreading of dishonesty.

Knowingly spreading untruths is called 'malicious gossip'.  It can also be called 'slander', or if in print 'libel'.

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« Reply #125 on: Mar 08, 2017, 04:13PM »

Stan, you raise an excellent point.

How often do you hear Trump correct the record?
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« Reply #126 on: Jun 29, 2017, 08:23PM »

So was Claire McCaskill lying when she incorrectly claimed not to have met with any Russians?
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« Reply #127 on: Jun 30, 2017, 10:15AM »

So was Claire McCaskill lying when she incorrectly claimed not to have met with any Russians?

It's not unreasonable for Senators and Representatives to meet with Russian representatives when they are acting as Senators and the Russians are acting as Lobbyists.

The problem is one of optics.  Sessions was an official of the Trump campaign when he had these meetings with the Russians and we don't know if he was acting as a Senator or as a representative of the Trump campaign.  Some promises were apparently made (somehow) to the Russians since they didn't respond to Obama's actions following revelations of hacking.  This is unusual and raises suspicions.
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« Reply #128 on: Jun 30, 2017, 10:26AM »

So was Claire McCaskill lying when she incorrectly claimed not to have met with any Russians?

No.

Of all the lies being told lately, if this is the one that stands out in your mind, you're trying way too hard. McCaskill said that as a Senate Armed Services member she didn't have calls or meetings with the Russian Ambassador. A black-tie event at the Ambassadors house honoring her mentor, James Symington, was not a call or meeting and had nothing to do with her duties as an Armed Services committeeperson.

She could have worded it more arftully, but it was a 140-word Tweet, not sworn testimony, and the substance of her claim stands.

By contrast, the criticism of Jeff Sessions was that he apparently lied under oath, rather than a slightly inaccurate Tweet. He omitted very recent meetings that were precisely of the character the hearing was looking for. His personal meeting with Kislyak was at the GOP convention, which was plainly Trump campaign business and not Senate Armed Services business.

In the case of Flynn, he took a public and official stance that he did not discuss sanctions with the Russians. Given the timing of the conversation, and the Russian response, it's absolutely implausible that Flynn could have forgotten the nature of the conversation. The only reason he got caught is that the Russian was under routine surveillance.

Like I said, you're trying too hard. As the leaky Trump ship founders, you're trying to make something out of nothing with the McCaskill tweet.

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« Reply #129 on: Jul 02, 2017, 10:41AM »

Sorry piano, your whataboutism notwithstanding, CNN disagrees with you.

Claire McCaskill attended reception at Russian ambassador's home - CNNPolitics.com

http://us.cnn.com/2017/06/26/politics/mccaskill-russian-ambassador/index.html

More to the point, Sessions' original answer still stands. Whether he met, or was in the same building  Yeah, RIGHT., with a Russian while performing his job as a US senator clearly wasn't the intent of the question. It was whether he'd been involved in this virtually meaningless "collusion" business or not. His answer remains unchanged in this regard. He's in a much better position, ethically, than say... Loretta Lynch.
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« Reply #130 on: Jul 02, 2017, 11:29AM »

Sorry piano, your whataboutism notwithstanding, CNN disagrees with you.

Claire McCaskill attended reception at Russian ambassador's home - CNNPolitics.com

http://us.cnn.com/2017/06/26/politics/mccaskill-russian-ambassador/index.html

I'm not sure where you see the disagreement. I mentioned the reception in the Ambassador's home in my post.

As regards my purported 'what-about-ism', you're the one who brought up Claire McCaskill in a conversation about Jeff Sessions's lying, which is the very definition of the term. I"m just responding to your question.

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« Reply #131 on: Jul 02, 2017, 11:45AM »

More to the point, Sessions' original answer still stands. Whether he met, or was in the same building  Yeah, RIGHT., with a Russian while performing his job as a US senator clearly wasn't the intent of the question. It was whether he'd been involved in this virtually meaningless "collusion" business or not. His answer remains unchanged in this regard. He's in a much better position, ethically, than say... Loretta Lynch.

Look, you're going to make excuses for the guy because he's your guy, and you have to. There aren't any imaginable circumstances where you would not.

I understand you're repeating the talking point here, but Jeff Sessions wasn't performing his Senatorial duties when he met with met with Kislyak. The convention is a political event, and by Sessions's own account he was a Trump surrogate.

This is from the article you posted:
Quote
Indeed, the controversy over McCaskill's comments started once it was revealed that Attorney General Jeff Sessions failed to disclose during his Senate confirmation proceedings the fact that he had multiple meetings with Kislyak during the election year. The meetings raised suspicions given Russia's role in trying to sway the elections and Sessions' role as a high-profile Trump surrogate.

McCaskill was dumb to send the tweet as she did. And I understand Sessions's excuse--that he was answering in the constext of collusion only and not answering the question literally. But her omitting a 2015 social event in a 140-character tweet is more understandable than Sessions omitting a very recent conversation at a political event with Kislyak and multiple other election-year meetings, while testifying under oath to Congress.

If you can't see the difference between sworn testimony and a tweet, the difference between a political event and a social one, you could pretend that the cases are similar. Your problem would still be that McCaskill's point was that the Senate Armed Services committee doesn't have much business with the Russian ambassador. That point still stands even if she went to a black tie social event, and it undercuts Sessions's defense of his lie.

It's the same problem you have with Flynn. If the conversations were appropriate, they wouldn't have lied about them.

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« Reply #132 on: Jul 02, 2017, 02:14PM »

You guys still arguing over the nothing burger? LOL!
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« Reply #133 on: Jul 02, 2017, 02:22PM »

You guys still arguing over the nothing burger? LOL!

It's as much a nothing burger as Benghazi, and "you guys" seemed happy to continue to flog that.
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« Reply #134 on: Jul 02, 2017, 11:27PM »

You guys still arguing over the nothing burger? LOL!

Yeah, the McCaskill thing.

By the way, just because someone cooler than you said 'nothingburger' one time doesn't mean it's cool when you say it all the time. You have to pace yourself. Go back to 'disingenuous', or ' sycophant', or one of the other words you copied.
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« Reply #135 on: Jul 03, 2017, 07:34AM »

It's as much a nothing burger as Benghazi, and "you guys" seemed happy to continue to flog that.

No, that's not exactly true. We have documented evidence that Hillary spouted the lie that the attack was caused by a video.
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« Reply #136 on: Jul 03, 2017, 08:39AM »

Yawn

Meanwhile Trump lies everyday, yet you don't have a problem with that.

Latest polls:

Now just 37 percent of Americans say they approve of the job the president is doing in office, down three percentage points since last Thursday.

Fifty-seven percent say they disapprove of the job Trump is doing as president.

And no, that wasn't from CNN.
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« Reply #137 on: Jul 03, 2017, 09:41AM »

No, that's not exactly true. We have documented evidence that Hillary spouted the lie that the attack was caused by a video.

Even if that were true, it wouldn't warrant multiple investigations. And it's not.
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« Reply #138 on: Jul 03, 2017, 01:50PM »

Even if that were true, it wouldn't warrant multiple investigations. And it's not.
It is true. So, supplying false evidence of what happened is obstruction of justice. Is it not?
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« Reply #139 on: Jul 03, 2017, 02:22PM »

It is true. So, supplying false evidence of what happened is obstruction of justice. Is it not?


Is it true?  Eight investigations have failed to prove it.  If I say Donald Trump is the Devil Incarnate, does that make it true?  Even though nobody has proved that to be the case?
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« Reply #140 on: Jul 03, 2017, 02:23PM »

It is true. So, supplying false evidence of what happened is obstruction of justice. Is it not?


No, it's not.

First of all, all of the investigations showed that initial intelligence reports conflicted, some indicating that it was a spontaneous uprising inspired by the video, which had already happened elsewhere. The ultimate finding was that it was an attack by a local warlord, who used the video as a recruiting tool.

At worst, the administration was guilty of spin, by choosing the intelligence that best suited them, which is pretty much de rigeur. In the event that this were proved--that the White House definitely put the best face on a negative event--it wouldn't be an occasion for multiple investigations, because that happens every week now. None of that has any bearing on the actual attack, the prevention of which should have been the focus of the investigation rather than the political gamesmanship.

Second, there was no supplying of 'false evidence', because the initial statements weren't presented as evidence in response to an investigation, but were initial public statements from the White House and State Dept. If you counted any inaccurate statement from the White House or the President as 'obstruction of justice', Trump would be guilty of dozens of counts by now. How many inaccurate public statements has he made so far?

I know this won't matter to you, because you don't care whether what you say is true, any more than your guy does.
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« Reply #141 on: Jul 03, 2017, 08:45PM »

To all my fellow discontented Americans: 

Happy Independence Day!
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« Reply #142 on: Jul 03, 2017, 10:43PM »

Is it true?  Eight investigations have failed to prove it.  If I say Donald Trump is the Devil Incarnate, does that make it true?  Even though nobody has proved that to be the case?

Maybe I wasn't clear as to what is true. Hillary on more than one occasion stated that the video was the reason for the attack on the embassy. That was a bald face lie. That's something that you can't deny happened. That was an obstruction of justice.
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« Reply #143 on: Jul 04, 2017, 01:37AM »

Maybe I wasn't clear as to what is true. Hillary on more than one occasion stated that the video was the reason for the attack on the embassy. That was a bald face lie. That's something that you can't deny happened. That was an obstruction of justice.

I can certainly deny it, because it's not true.

It wasn't a 'bald-faced lie'--it was consistent with some early intelligence reports.

It wasn't obstruction of justice, even if it was wrong.

There isn't an 'obstruction of justice' charge every time a president or Secretary of State says something that proves to be untrue, and that's a good thing for Trump. He rarely passes a day without a lie.

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« Reply #144 on: Jul 04, 2017, 05:44AM »

I can certainly deny it, because it's not true.

It wasn't a 'bald-faced lie'--it was consistent with some early intelligence reports.

It wasn't obstruction of justice, even if it was wrong.

There isn't an 'obstruction of justice' charge every time a president or Secretary of State says something that proves to be untrue, and that's a good thing for Trump. He rarely passes a day without a lie.



Keep on believing the lies of the left. Happy Independence Day!
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« Reply #145 on: Jul 04, 2017, 01:03PM »

We have documented evidence that Hillary spouted the lie that the attack was caused by a video.
Please present your documentation.  Not a media editorial article (left, right or otherwise), because they are not evidence.  A news article with a credible source, or the documents themselves.  Let everyone see this evidence.

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« Reply #146 on: Jul 04, 2017, 02:24PM »

As it happens, someone pointed me this way:

http://dailycaller.com/2016/04/14/new-documents-prove-hillary-told-conflicting-stories-about-benghazi-video/

The transcript in question is on page 42 of the FOIA document linked to in that article.  You be the judge.  However, from my perspective, there is a sentence removed from Mohamed Amr's excerpt near the top of the page that might very well be the first mention of a movie or video.  Whatever is in that sentence is refereed to by Amr as "incitement".

In Hillary's response she talks of the movie as though it had already been introduced into their conversation.
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« Reply #147 on: Jul 04, 2017, 04:16PM »

As it happens, someone pointed me this way:

http://dailycaller.com/2016/04/14/new-documents-prove-hillary-told-conflicting-stories-about-benghazi-video/

The transcript in question is on page 42 of the FOIA document linked to in that article.  You be the judge.  However, from my perspective, there is a sentence removed from Mohamed Amr's excerpt near the top of the page that might very well be the first mention of a movie or video.  Whatever is in that sentence is refereed to by Amr as "incitement".

In Hillary's response she talks of the movie as though it had already been introduced into their conversation.

You decide:
News report:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xitCdlo9IlQ

Trey Gowdy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3RfxNJBArU

When the bodies arrived:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSooz2wXpes

In front of Congress, she said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOjX-o9axmw
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« Reply #148 on: Jul 04, 2017, 04:44PM »

Keep on believing the lies of the left. Happy Independence Day!

Happy Independence Day!
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« Reply #149 on: Jul 04, 2017, 05:33PM »

Happy Independence Day!
I hope that you're enjoying your holiday today!
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« Reply #150 on: Jul 04, 2017, 05:45PM »

... That was an obstruction of justice.
So, you really have no idea what that means, do you?

Really.

Every time you have typed that Trump is clearly not guilty of obstruction, you have Naha absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

Impressive, Mr. Darcy.
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« Reply #151 on: Jul 04, 2017, 05:59PM »

Keep on believing the lies of the left. Happy Independence Day!

That fell short of an effective rebuttal, but it's all you have. If you could build an entire nation on talking points, you could have been one of the founders. Happy Independence Day!
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« Reply #152 on: Jul 05, 2017, 04:51AM »

So, you really have no idea what that means, do you?
 
Really.
 
Every time you have typed that Trump is clearly not guilty of obstruction, you have Naha absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

Doesn't matter what it really means, only how it can fit neatly the existing, absolutely unyielding worldview (i.e. neatly enough to fool anyone immensely and intensely investing in being fooled).
 
That's the disconnect You Guys are failing to fully appreciate and that's needed to perpetuate this wonderful social climate through the misguided allocation of attentions ... or so it seems to me, on both counts. What's real and true is just a ghost to Those Guys. Any standards or practices by which You Guys use to take responsibility and try to assess what's real and true as best you can are completely alien and even offensive to Those Guys, because they fail to affirm that existing worldview, which is the only standard by which They actually measure what's real and true. Nicely circular, and all but absolutely impervious to correction. Sadly it takes tragedy to provide any actual hope of any actual significant correction (and "hope" is a strange term there, but it's being used in a surgical manner, very specifically about correction only).
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