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Author Topic: Recusal, Removal, or Indictment?  (Read 4983 times)
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ddickerson

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« Reply #100 on: Mar 04, 2017, 11:52AM »

Lynch herself said there was no reason for her to recuse herself:

"During a House Judiciary Committee hearing with Attorney General Loretta Lynch on Tuesday morning, committee Chair Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) asked Lynch why she did not recuse herself from the investigation into Hillary Clinton's email use, suggesting that Lynch decided not to prosecute the former secretary of state for political reasons.

Goodlatte mentioned that Lynch was appointed as U.S. Attorney in the Eastern District of New York by then-President Bill Clinton in 1999.

"Given she was a political appointee of your current boss and more importantly the wife of your previous boss, why did you not see fit to recuse yourself from the investigation? Wouldn't recusal or appointment of a special prosecutor have removed any appearance of impropriety given your service during Bill Clinton's presidency?" Goodlatte asked Lynch about the investigation into Clinton's private email server.

In response, Lynch told Goodlatte "there was no need for recusal or an independent prosecutor that the investigation."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/loretta-lynch-bob-goodlatte-clinton-recusal


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« Reply #101 on: Mar 04, 2017, 11:55AM »

Example of recusal - a judge who has a family member come before him will recuse himself, handing over the trial to somebody else.  A judge who owns part of a business same thing.  Not just not interfering, but stepping away completely.

Long thread, so if this is already posted my pardon, but

SEN. AL FRANKEN: "If there was any evidence that anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign communicated with the Russian government in the course of this (2016) campaign, what would you do?," the Minnesota Democrat asked.

SESSIONS: "I'm not aware of any of those activities. I have been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign and I did not have communications with the Russians."

So, under oath, he said he had no communications with the Russians.  He lied under oath.
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« Reply #102 on: Mar 04, 2017, 12:05PM »

You know, what's interesting about Sessions's response is that the question didn't make any direct reference to Sessions's own behavior toward the Russians at all.

The question was about how he would perform his duties as AG in the event that evidence turned up regarding communication between the Trump campaign and the Russians. It would have been easy to answer in the hypothetical: "If there was any evidence of illegality, it would be pursued--no one is above the law, including the president." I'll bet he wishes he answered that way.

Instead, he veered off into defending himself against allegations of his own contacts with Russians during the campaign, even though the subject had never really been brought up, including by Franken.

I heard a joke to the effect that it's like your wife saying, "The neighbor's lawn sure looks great," and answering, "I never slept with her!"
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« Reply #103 on: Mar 04, 2017, 03:04PM »

SEN. AL FRANKEN: "If there was any evidence that anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign communicated with the Russian government in the course of this (2016) campaign, what would you do?," the Minnesota Democrat asked.
 
SESSIONS: "I'm not aware of any of those activities. I have been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign and I did not have communications with the Russians."
 
So, under oath, he said he had no communications with the Russians.  He lied under oath.

Anyone and everyone with a few functioning brain cells who isn't both extremely inclined toward self-deception and so good at it that even "believing" blatant absurdities comes easily--so good that a sense of what's credible or reasonable has no bearing at all on it--everyone else, already gets it. Those who don't ... well, why would you think reason has anything at all to do with their thinking or perceptions? Facts don't matter to Trump, nor do they matter to his fans who actually buy his nonsense, because they're all about post-truth and Alternative Facts™ and have too little intellectual integrity and too casual a relationship with honesty to even actually care what's real and true. They just know they like Trump, probably specifically because he's amoral, doesn't care what's real or true, and deplorable. To them they like Trump = Trump is right and good and virtuous ... etc. They don't understand any other, i.e. any actual, standards.
 
So, bottom line, they're going to make bleating noises in favor of Trump and to whine about his opposition and inconvenient facts. The complaints of these Trump fans should be given their due--which means about the same consideration and credence as any chronological two-year-old's complaints about fairness and such. Don't give them a constant stage so they can set the tone int he public square and be the dominant impact on the social climate. That's how Trump happened. Let's keep the damage of that toxic influence from taking us even lower.
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« Reply #104 on: Mar 04, 2017, 09:28PM »


Anyone and everyone with a few functioning brain cells who isn't both extremely inclined toward self-deception and so good at it that even "believing" blatant absurdities comes easily--so good that a sense of what's credible or reasonable has no bearing at all on it--everyone else, already gets it. Those who don't ... well, why would you think reason has anything at all to do with their thinking or perceptions? Facts don't matter to Trump, nor do they matter to his fans who actually buy his nonsense, because they're all about post-truth and Alternative Facts™ and have too little intellectual integrity and too casual a relationship with honesty to even actually care what's real and true. They just know they like Trump, probably specifically because he's amoral, doesn't care what's real or true, and deplorable. To them they like Trump = Trump is right and good and virtuous ... etc. They don't understand any other, i.e. any actual, standards.
 
So, bottom line, they're going to make bleating noises in favor of Trump and to whine about his opposition and inconvenient facts. The complaints of these Trump fans should be given their due--which means about the same consideration and credence as any chronological two-year-old's complaints about fairness and such. Don't give them a constant stage so they can set the tone int he public square and be the dominant impact on the social climate. That's how Trump happened. Let's keep the damage of that toxic influence from taking us even lower.
Why are we trying to argue with DD and his ilk?  What is the point?

Cogito ergo sum ... not going to argue anymore with someone that does not.
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« Reply #105 on: Mar 05, 2017, 05:30AM »

Why are we trying to argue with DD and his ilk?  What is the point?

not going to argue anymore

That about explains it. I'm trying to have a discussion, and you guys only want to argue.

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« Reply #106 on: Mar 05, 2017, 06:27AM »

Why are we trying to argue with DD and his ilk?  What is the point?
 
Cogito ergo sum ... not going to argue anymore with someone that does not.

Ex-actly ...
 
To further explain this situation (since an excellent example was conveniently if not at all surprisingly provided just above), at least in matters of ideology and of social and political consideration and discourse, there's a striking disconnect between most authoritarians' understanding of the ideas and their understanding of application. A great simile is dancing, and young children learning to do it. A child's mind and body simply haven't developed to where they can dance very well. They can see what it looks like when skilled adult dancers do it, but they can't make those movements happen in anything much like the same way themselves, no matter how hard they try. There's a very real and very physical disconnect between the child's conception of dance, and their attempts at making their bodies do it. It's hilarious! And in the context of children trying to dance it's a joy to observe. But the dance we're talking about here has serious implications and effects on many people--not such a joy to watch, and we don't get to just watch--we have to try and dance with them as they flail about randomly, claiming (knowing--Dunning-Kruger yet again) they're doing it right and the real dancers are incompetent. Again, The Donald is, I certainly hope, a crystal clear demonstration of that fact.
 
The simile ends at the dance class though, because children will develop the physical apparatus in their brains and bodies so that they can learn to dance like the pros--some will in fact become professional dancers--but the analog children (the Alt-Right/Alternative Facts™/authoritarian types) think they are dancers, and that those who flail about randomly as they do are the best of the pros--that the inability to control their bodies and make them conform to what the mind is picturing is the precise opposite, and that those who so plainly to the rest of us have developed those skills to an exceptional degree are the ones who don't know what they're doing. The disconnect in these authoritarians' psychology is very real and every bit as much a matter of function as the lack of body and brain development in children trying to dance. You have to wait until those things develop before you can interact with them, just as you have to wait for a child to transform into an adult mind and body before they're going to be eligible to dance at the highest level (or just to do it well, really).
 
I have to wonder if this trolling in the Interweb has been spilling over into Real Life more and more as people who are just trolls in general are encouraged by the psychology that online trolling exposes for examination and exploration.
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« Reply #107 on: Mar 07, 2017, 12:45PM »

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I have to wonder if this trolling in the Interweb has been spilling over into Real Life more and more as people who are just trolls in general are encouraged by the psychology that online trolling exposes for examination and exploration.

Yes.  Absolutely.  10,000%.  At this point, I can't tell if Mr. Dickerson actually believes the doublespeak he's spouting or is simply trolling everyone who tries to have a meaningful interaction with him.  When you can't tell the troll from the truth, then there's no longer any difference between them.

I was teaching my son some magic tricks last night.  He's 5, and a very concrete thinker.  I told him that in magic, there's one hand that moves and one hand that hides.  The hand that moves is meant to distract you and keep you from seeing what's really happening.  So, in learning magic, you've got to practice moving one hand and keeping the other hand very steady.

Answering questions about Jeff Sessions and his conversations with the Russian ambassador by talking about Loretta Lynch, the way Al Franken's asked his questions, and Hillary Clinton is literally telling people to "look over here" while the steady hand completes the deception.  And if you engage with that, with Dusty Dickerson and his ilk, and humor them in that bottomless argument, then you're going to lose.  You're going to lose because at that point there's no difference between trolling, doublespeak, or willful ignorance.  It's all the same. 

Jeff Sessions lied.  Period.  He got caught.  Period.  He might not have lied intentionally, he might not have known he lied.  But he lied and the record shows it.  The only response to the slight of hand is, "You're protecting lies with half truths" or "You're protecting lies with redirection."  You can't have a reasonable conversation when someone operantly refuses to meet you half way.  You just can't.

(I fully expect an ad hominem attack to follow.)
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« Reply #108 on: Mar 07, 2017, 01:25PM »


Jeff Sessions lied.  Period.  He got caught.  Period.  He might not have lied intentionally, he might not have known he lied.  B

Do you realize that what you just posted made no sense at all?
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« Reply #109 on: Mar 07, 2017, 07:36PM »

Do you realize that what you just posted made no sense at all?

What?  Jeff Sessions said he had no meetings with any Russian dignitaries.  He had two meetings with the Russian Ambassador.  Was it because of his office?  Was it because of the Trump Campaign?  We don't really know.  But he claimed he had no meetings and he did.  So he lied.
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« Reply #110 on: Mar 07, 2017, 07:38PM »

What?  Jeff Sessions said he had no meetings with any Russian dignitaries.  He had two meetings with the Russian Ambassador.  Was it because of his office?  Was it because of the Trump Campaign?  We don't really know.  But he claimed he had no meetings and he did.  So he lied.
But... only democrats can lie.. and sessions is a republican. No sense, I tell ya!

So goes normal republican "logic" these days. The only certainty is party above county, and if something doesn't come to advantage self or party, it is meaningless. "Morals" "ethics" "sense" "care" ... empty buzz words to a party of false prophets and a god that is printed and held close by those in the fold.
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« Reply #111 on: Mar 07, 2017, 07:39PM »

Do you realize that what you just posted made no sense at all?
Wheeeeee!
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« Reply #112 on: Mar 07, 2017, 08:22PM »

Many on the far right only understand lying as intentional. They may not intentionally choose to ignore most lying because it's so convenient, but I'm sure they sleep much better that way.
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« Reply #113 on: Mar 07, 2017, 08:26PM »

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Jeff Sessions lied.  Period.  He got caught.  Period.  He might not have lied intentionally, he might not have known he lied.
 

Do you realize that what you just posted made no sense at all?

Perhaps DD is referring to the last sentence.

I think you have to intend to lie for it to be a lie. Otherwise, you're just mistaken or misinformed.


However, I don't think Jeff Sessions was mistaken or uninformed about his own activities.


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« Reply #114 on: Mar 07, 2017, 08:52PM »

 

Do you realize that what you just posted made no sense at all?


Perhaps DD is referring to the last sentence.

I think you have to intend to lie for it to be a lie. Otherwise, you're just mistaken or misinformed.


However, I don't think Jeff Sessions was mistaken or uniformed about his own activities.




At least one person knows what a lie is.  Evil
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« Reply #115 on: Mar 07, 2017, 11:09PM »

At least one person knows what a lie is.  Evil

No, I get it, too. There's an element of intent to lying, rather than simply being mistaken.

To give an entirely hypothetical example, if a person spreads a false story about James Rosen being wiretapped, that hypothetical person might just be ignorant, ill-informed, gullible, incurious, or largely indifferent to truth and falsehood. That's not automatically a lie.

If that same, entirely hypothetical person accuses a forum member of plagiarism, without any basis and without offering any evidence to support it, then that hypothetical person is a liar, because it's intentional.

Did I get it right?
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« Reply #116 on: Mar 08, 2017, 05:05AM »

At least one person knows what a lie is.  Evil

If the only supposed difference here is whether sessions understood that he was uttering a falsehood at the time he went out of his way to give it, then two things come to mind:

1) Recusal is still the appropriate course of action. He should not be investigating a campaign he was involved in. To do otherwise renders the investigation very very suspect.
2) If he went out of his way to provide information that was blatantly wrong, but did it on accident and on a whim while under oath, then this is probably not a good person to be attorney general and should likely step down. That's generally called incompetence. And not a good thing for the top lawyer in the country to flub up legal situations so blatantly.

Either way... the GOP attempts to say that sessions is all good still only rely on diversion and distraction and try to pretend that their own arguments cast sessions as incompetent for the role they appointed him to.
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« Reply #117 on: Mar 08, 2017, 05:25AM »

I think you have to intend to lie for it to be a lie. Otherwise, you're just mistaken or misinformed.
I'm not so sure.

So, someone of wanton ignorance is forgiven of all lies, because they have no idea what they were talking about and did not intentionally 'lie' about something due to not having confirmed the veracity of their comments?

I know absolutely nothing about Trumps personal activities when he was 40 years old.  I know I know nothing about them since I have never read anything about them or heard anything about them. So, now if I make the statement "Trump raped an underage girl with one of his buddies when he was 40." and it turns out to be untrue, should I be excused from having lied because I was speaking through my arse?

Naw, a lie is a lie.  If you make a statement you cannot stand behind, and it's not true, you lied, whether or not you intended it to be a lie.
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« Reply #118 on: Mar 08, 2017, 05:29AM »

At least one person knows what a lie is.  Evil
I think you have to intend to lie for it to be a lie. Otherwise, you're just mistaken or misinformed.

Hence the fact, at least for now, he is not being charged with perjury.
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« Reply #119 on: Mar 08, 2017, 05:59AM »



Naw, a lie is a lie.  If you make a statement you cannot stand behind, and it's not true, you lied, whether or not you intended it to be a lie.

I draw the line slightly lower.

An intentional falsehood is of course a lie.

A false statement than could have been known to be false is also a lie, if a reasonable person would have checked.
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