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The Trombone ForumCreation and PerformancePerformance(Moderator: BGuttman) Why Do Jazz Artists Always Play The Same Old Stuff?
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ddickerson

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« Reply #120 on: Mar 09, 2017, 01:32PM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxVM9_ANbjg

Bob Wills 'Who walks in when I walk out"
Smoking hot at about a tempo of 250 to 254 or so.

Trombone included too!

Here is a Trad Version by Bob Schulz's group:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw6SnUX-u5U

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« Reply #121 on: Mar 09, 2017, 05:19PM »

To our ears today, it might sound awfully corny. But I can also hear some nice melody lines. What the heck happened to "country" music of today that the vocals got so mutated? Sounds to me that "back in the day", country music was more about the instrumental make-up of the group than it was the sound of the lead vocalist, although I can hear a Southern twang - but not near as perverted as it has become today to where I have no idea what area of the South would sound like they do. The subject matter of the lyrics seems to have held constant through the decades, though.
Nothing wrong with corn. Unless it's monsanto - in which case you get sued if you grow it without a contract (lame) and worst of all it has no freaking taste (lameX2). I remember as kids that even the corn that came in the can had a great taste to it, and the stuff on the stalk was as strong and sweet as nothing most of today's youth will ever experience. GMOs, stripped soils, and industrial growing have all but killed the produce we had as kids. The "organic" stuff, when it ain't just some BS with "organic" slapped on it, has a taste. You smell it and it's like perfume.

The real deal is always a damn sight better than the fake stuff.

Now-a-days, county is trying so hard to sound like the pop music on the radio. Singers that ain't from the south are injecting "twang" from a vocal coach. Failed pop songwriters are sending their stuff to nashville where they take a pop track and sing it with a little twang and call it country. Bro-country, guns and jesus, creepy objectification of girls, big $50,000 trucks that no farmer or country boy of my generation could've ever afforded, pressed jeans with nary a grass stain and pressed mo-betta shirts, ridiculous hats, chaw, show dogs instead of real bird dogs, and for the love of God, autotune????? - the country music you hear today for the most part is a giant wal-mart/pickup truck/guns/republican party commercial. It lost it's heart and it's edge when it became more about selling a "lifestyle" than it did about telling a story. The political landscape of country music used to actually be pretty diverse - some of the most liberal cats I know were some old country musicians (and they had some stories.)  Now it's largely about a target audience. Not all of it, mind you - like any genre, there are some gems, and the best artists don't play the "target audience" game. It's just that what you hear dominating the airwaves is for the most part aimed at the lowest common denominator, like pretty much all the "in" stuff. There are some great current artists doing good work - Brad Paisley and Chris Stapleton will change a lot of people's minds about country. If bluegrass is your thing Allison Krauss and

Anyway, yeah - why not? I believe it would have to come from some Billboard Top 100 all-time country hits though for a general audience anywhere to recognize the tune - like "Ghost Riders In The Sky". I think that one could be made into a great jazz chart. Probably some of Johnny Cash as well as Merle Haggard. "Oakie From Muskogie" in a jazz format. lol Why not...
It's "Okie" and "Muskogee" - and if you're from California, you can't say "Okie". If you're from Cali and you call me an Okie, well, dem's fightin' words. And in this part of the country, most of us grew up on the old country standards. Johnny Cash, Hank Williams (Jr. and Sr.), Merle Haggard, Willie Nelson (one of my grandmother's favorites, I get teary when "blue eyes cryin' in the rain comes on), Reba McEntire, Patsy Cline, Jimmy Rogers, Loretta Lynn, George Strait, Charley Pride, heck even Garth Brooks is a classic now - as poppy as his stuff seemed, much of it has held up well. One could put together about 3 sets worth of music representing those artists and do well just about anywhere around here. I used to do an arrangement of Willie's "My Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys" to close sets. There's so much good material in there.

Oops. I just used the term "jazz" a few times. I think Zack would prefer I use the term "     ". lol If I remember correctly, Zach doesn't like the term "Dixieland" either. I wonder if Zach is in the room.  :D  And I wonder why we aren't "allowed" to use those terms. No I don't.  Yeah, RIGHT.

The only problem with "Jazz" is that it's just a horrible identifier - it applies to such a wide range of music (and in some cases not correctly in my opinion.) Despite it's questionable origins that's a term that isn't overtly objectionable.

"Dixieland" has three huge strikes against it: 1) the term "Dixie" is closely associated with the south at a time when the oppression of african americans was a normal way of life, and is also a term used specifically to describe the south when slavery was legal. 2) It implies a southern origin for the music and attempts to take the credit from the african americans who invented to style and by association give it to the white bands who "stole" it. 3) The term "New Orleans" music is both more accurate and less offensive.
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« Reply #122 on: Mar 09, 2017, 05:36PM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxVM9_ANbjg

Bob Wills 'Who walks in when I walk out"
Smoking hot at about a tempo of 250 to 254 or so.

Trombone included too!

There should be a 'like' button on the forum.
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« Reply #123 on: Mar 09, 2017, 08:40PM »

I like to listen to good Dixieland. I would like to find some all-time great pop tunes to play in a Dixieland format, but I've given up trying to learn how to play in that style. There simply are NO good learning books currently on the market. This is the place where someone will jump up and exclaim how good the Hal Leonard and/or Jamey Aebersold books are. Been there; tried that. They were terrible for me! I guess it's just too minor of a niche for them to put much effort into.

...Geezer
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« Reply #124 on: Mar 09, 2017, 10:17PM »

I like to listen to good Dixieland. I would like to find some all-time great pop tunes to play in a Dixieland format, but I've given up trying to learn how to play in that style. There simply are NO good learning books currently on the market. This is the place where someone will jump up and exclaim how good the Hal Leonard and/or Jamey Aebersold books are. Been there; tried that. They were terrible for me! I guess it's just too minor of a niche for them to put much effort into.

...Geezer

Just listen and copy. What better book than that?
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« Reply #125 on: Mar 09, 2017, 10:19PM »

I've been toying with the idea of using John Lennon's 'Imagine' as the basis of either a ballad or a jazz piece for Big Band.  I think it can work either way.

Dixie land ... not so much, but hey ... fruit form a different mind?  Why not?
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« Reply #126 on: Mar 09, 2017, 10:22PM »

I like to listen to good Dixieland. I would like to find some all-time great pop tunes to play in a Dixieland format, but I've given up trying to learn how to play in that style. There simply are NO good learning books currently on the market. This is the place where someone will jump up and exclaim how good the Hal Leonard and/or Jamey Aebersold books are. Been there; tried that. They were terrible for me! I guess it's just too minor of a niche for them to put much effort into.

...Geezer

mmmmm......, interesting. I thought the same thing quite a few years back and set about writing a tutor on how to play the style. I actually distributed it to a few youngsters (then) on this forum and even had it posted on a website at one time. But then I decided it was lacking in some areas and started a rewrite that was never completed.  :/ Yeah, RIGHT. But I'll have a look and see if there is anything there that I can rescue for you.

I also have never been happy with the term 'Dixieland', for somewhat the same reasons as explained by Zac. However, the book is called "Dixieland to Denmark and onwards", "A guide to playing 'hot' jazz (for frontline instruments)" In the Prelude to the book, I say:

"This book is about playing `hotī jazz, by which I mean the genres that are variously described as Traditional Jazz, Dixieland, New Orleans Jazz, Small-band Swing and Mainstream (British definition). If you want to play Bebop, Cool Jazz or Free Jazz, this is probably not your tutor although the basic theory is more-or-less the same. That being said, there have been advances in jazz teaching that are mainly associated with Modern Jazz (Bebop and onwards) playing and improvising, and I make no excuses for referencing some practice methods and techniques used by jazz educators teaching those styles." :D



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« Reply #127 on: Mar 09, 2017, 10:52PM »

Nothing wrong with corn. Unless it's monsanto - in which case you get sued if you grow it without a contract (lame)
Even if it gets blown unexpectedly into your field by a wind storm, post harvest.  But I digress.

We all like to hear jazz on melodies we are familiar with.  Free-form jazz has a loyal, but at least around these parts, limited following.  It will never be mainstream.

Geezer has a point.  We need to move forward. Jazz, in all it's forms is still valid.  My 26 year old son loves jazz, especially swing.   These are the people we need to cultivate.  Since jazz naturally co-opts other music by it's very nature, this should not be so difficult.  There is lots of suitable music out there to co-opt.  It just needs Jazz musicians to stand up and move the genre forward.
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« Reply #128 on: Mar 09, 2017, 11:45PM »

I've been toying with the idea of using John Lennon's 'Imagine' as the basis of either a ballad or a jazz piece for Big Band.  I think it can work either way.

Dixie land ... not so much, but hey ... fruit form a different mind?  Why not?

One of my favourite tunes of all time and I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed in the lyric. There are several big band arrangements of the tune but that is not to say there is no room for another. Good luck with it!

Here is one of those arrangements by John Berry:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53Fd8ddaChY

I find that many Beatles tunes adapt very well to being played by a big and small jazz bands. I mentioned 'Hey Jude' earlier and I did an arrangement for my own band of 'Here There and Everywhere', although I will admit it was a bit of a steal from the James Morrison version.
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« Reply #129 on: Mar 10, 2017, 05:01AM »

I believe the point of transcribing a Dixieland piece is valid. That is what we are urged to do with jazz licks. Some also state that to learn how to play jazz, it is helpful to just take a chord progression and learn how to improv through it. That may be fine for an art form like jazz where it's a kinda free-form thing. But my understanding of Dixieland is that it is more structured, at least the trombone part is.

Seeing a book on how to learn Dixieland, where the chords are laid out over measures with nothing but slashes through them teaches me nothing. Give me a book with ALL the trombone notes and all of the musical notation laid down and I'll memorize all of the songs. Then hopefully I will have a chance to assimilate the pattern and repeat it in a song of my own choosing. It would be a process very similar to transcribing a jazz solo and absorbing it to the point of being able to use it as a guide in another song, minus the tedium of transcribing.

I know. I know. Transcribing is good for us and I've done some. But I'm not a music major with his whole music life ahead of him. At this point in my life I want shortcuts; the easy way, if you will. Other than what notes are in basic chords, I'm not interested in learning much about music theory. If anything, I'm learning how to "play by ear". Every educator among you thinks in terms of educating youth and that's fantastic. But also learn to think in terms of senior adult education. It's different. I don't want to know the "why", I want to cut straight to the "how" in a more "down and dirty" or "meatball" way. Flawed though that approach may be, it will get me - I say me - to a usable point quicker.

With respect, perhaps a discussion on the use or disuse of the commonly-used term "Dixieland" should best be served on the "Purely Politics" board or it's like.

...Geezer
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« Reply #130 on: Mar 10, 2017, 05:23AM »

" 2) It implies a southern origin for the music and attempts to take the credit from the african americans who invented to style and by association give it to the white bands who "stole" it."
"the genres that are variously described as Traditional Jazz, Dixieland, New Orleans Jazz, Small-band Swing and Mainstream (British definition)."

Not to hi-jack the thread, and I am sure there is another devoted to the topic somewhere on the forum, but my belief is that the birth of "Jazz" in America had both a mother and a father. I won't speculate on which played which role, but I believe the Klezmer tradition coming out of Eastern Europe played as much a part in the birth of "Jazz" as did the music of black suppression in the south. I would suggest that Be-Bop is where the two traditions finally met and melded completely, but there is certainly as rich a history of great improvisational soloists coming out of the klezmer tradition in the late 19th and early part of the 20th centuries as there is of those coming out of the "traditional or Dixieland" era in the south.

Back to the suject at hand, I have mentioned Sting and Prince as more modern, up-to-date examples of folks whose music will, with the passage of time, someday be the "same old stuff" everybody plays. Toto, Phil Collins, and Peter Gabriel come to mind as others from the end opf the 20th century who will rise to that level over time.
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« Reply #131 on: Mar 10, 2017, 05:29AM »


...

Back to the suject at hand, I have mentioned Sting and Prince as more modern, up-to-date examples of folks whose music will, with the passage of time, someday be the "same old stuff" everybody plays. Toto, Phil Collins, and Peter Gabriel come to mind as others from the end opf the 20th century who will rise to that level over time.

Outside of maybe "Little Red Corvette" and "Purple Rain", I never really "got" Prince. But those two songs alone make him more than a "one-hit wonder" to me. I also never "got" The Grateful Dead. Are there songs from their rep that would work in a jazz format?

...Geezer
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« Reply #132 on: Mar 10, 2017, 06:22AM »

Some also state that to learn how to play jazz, it is helpful to just take a chord progression and learn how to improv through it. 

Seeing a book on how to learn Dixieland, where the chords are laid out over measures with nothing but slashes through them teaches me nothing. Give me a book with ALL the trombone notes and all of the musical notation.

Geezer, you sure are missing out on how much more a trombone and player are capable of once measures with just slashes are learned or how to use them.  Sure it's easier with all the notes written for you.  We all learned that way, at least the ones who played in school.  After you start dinking around with the slashes trying to solo with no notes to read what you think sounds corny at first may very well sound great to others. 

Any chance of you listing the chord changes to some of your tunes that you've been working on?  Then you could possibly get free lessons here on what to do with them in regards to making your own solos.
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« Reply #133 on: Mar 10, 2017, 06:35AM »

Thank you sir!

Honestly, I would rather that part of it stay between me and my instructor. It's that "too many hands in the soup" thing and I prefer to go exclusively in the direction in which he is teaching me. It and more advanced written-out play-alongs are a large part of my sessions with him. I want to preserve a continuity with his instruction and not introduce other directions at this point, however valid they may be.

But as far as Dixieland is concerned, yes - I would like to see it all written out, even if it's not "good for me", as it were.

Thanks again!

...Geezer
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« Reply #134 on: Mar 10, 2017, 06:55AM »

That's not the tradition in traditional jazz, Geezer.

If you want to perform that music, you should do it the way they did it.
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« Reply #135 on: Mar 10, 2017, 06:59AM »

That's not the tradition in traditional jazz, Geezer.

If you want to perform that music, you should do it the way they did it.

I respect your opinion. I hope you know that.

...Geezer
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« Reply #136 on: Mar 10, 2017, 07:59AM »

One of the band leaders (trad jazz) that I play with explains that Trad Jazz is soul music. You listen to the original artists, and they played from their heart. Each instrument of the front line plays from the heart of the player. However, there are 'rules' or 'roles' that each instrument plays during the ensemble portion, or head portion.

Out of the three roles, the trombone has the easiest role to play, but one of the most important, because the trombone is the traffic cop that helps the other two instruments always know where the next section is heading.

In that light Geezer, to start out with, just play the root note of each chord, and do the walking up to the next chord. After a while, you will find more creative ways to achieve the same effect. You hear a lot of trombonists use glisses into the next chord, and a lot of trad fans love it when the trombone plays effective glisses.

Bottomline, listen, listen, listen. Don't listen for your own pleasure though. I used to do that. I would crank it up and listen and just be thoroughly entertained, but I wasn't paying attention to what the trombone player was doing, to see how he was performing his role in the front line, so all those years of listening, I really didn't learn as much as I could have.

When your chops are tired, listen. Listen with purpose, just like you practice with purpose.


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« Reply #137 on: Mar 10, 2017, 09:16AM »

One of the band leaders (trad jazz) that I play with explains that Trad Jazz is soul music. You listen to the original artists, and they played from their heart. Each instrument of the front line plays from the heart of the player. However, there are 'rules' or 'roles' that each instrument plays during the ensemble portion, or head portion.

Out of the three roles, the trombone has the easiest role to play, but one of the most important, because the trombone is the traffic cop that helps the other two instruments always know where the next section is heading.

In that light Geezer, to start out with, just play the root note of each chord, and do the walking up to the next chord. After a while, you will find more creative ways to achieve the same effect. You hear a lot of trombonists use glisses into the next chord, and a lot of trad fans love it when the trombone plays effective glisses.

Bottomline, listen, listen, listen. Don't listen for your own pleasure though. I used to do that. I would crank it up and listen and just be thoroughly entertained, but I wasn't paying attention to what the trombone player was doing, to see how he was performing his role in the front line, so all those years of listening, I really didn't learn as much as I could have.

When your chops are tired, listen. Listen with purpose, just like you practice with purpose.


Okay. That's actually the best guidance I've seen yet on this particular art form. So I can go through a typical "how to" book and mark in the root tones for all the listed chords, even though I guess the root tones are pretty much self-evident. It will still give me a written place in which to "walk".

I wonder if there any merit in playing a "walking" trombone part as fond in "trad jazz" as a bass line for a pop "_____" arrangement.

Thanks!

...Geezer
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« Reply #138 on: Mar 10, 2017, 02:40PM »

I just remembered something.  The first lesson we had in high school was to learn what the walking bass line was for 12 measure blues Bb and 16 measure blues key of F.  Then the only notes we were allowed to improvise with were the root, lowered third, fourth, sharped fourth. fifth, lowered seventh and the octave root aka 1, 3b, 4, 4#, 5, 7b and 8.
  Those were the only notes allowed at first though we could go above or below the given range only if the formula was still followed.  The idea was to train the ears to what sounds go together well when soloing while alternating notes long, short, long etc.  The trick was to make music with only the blues scales without sounding generic.  After Bb 12 measure blues it was on to 16 measure blues in F though I have seemed to have forgotten that progression.  Just a longer version in a different key - good for high school basketball halftime intermission, for example.

  Then after all that was hopefully understood it was on to the measures with slashes and chord names only when it was solo time.  Was told if you get lost while playing a non written solo that if you resort to your blues scale for the key or chord you're in that you can save face some until you find your way back.  Sometimes it sound good and sometimes it don't.   
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« Reply #139 on: Mar 10, 2017, 02:40PM »

I just remembered something.  The first lesson we had in high school was to learn what the walking bass line was for 12 measure blues Bb and 16 measure blues key of F.  Then the only notes we were allowed to improvise with were the root, lowered third, fourth, sharped fourth. fifth, lowered seventh and the octave root aka 1, 3b, 4, 4#, 5, 7b and 8.
  Those were the only notes allowed at first though we could go above or below the given range only if the formula was still followed.  The idea was to train the ears to what sounds go together well when soloing while alternating notes long, short, long etc.  The trick was to make music with only the blues scales without sounding generic.  After Bb 12 measure blues it was on to 16 measure blues in F though I have seemed to have forgotten that progression.  Just a longer version in a different key - good for high school basketball halftime intermission, for example.

  Then after all that was hopefully understood it was on to the measures with slashes and chord names only when it was solo time.  Was told if you get lost while playing a non written solo that if you resort to your blues scale for the key or chord you're in that you can save face some until you find your way back.  Sometimes it sound good and sometimes it don't.   
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