Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1083850 Posts in 71757 Topics- by 19136 Members - Latest Member: Weirdness28
Jump to:  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 ... 9  All   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: GOP Health Care  (Read 7382 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
B0B
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 27, 2008
Posts: 5594

View Profile
« on: Mar 08, 2017, 04:35AM »

The GOP officially and publicly released their "plans" recently to replace obamacare.

Oddly enough, to tout it from the White House side, Spicer had printouts of their proposed bill and the ACA to compare the sizes of the two side by side. It was also followed from trump in an attempted encouraging (but doesn't have that effect) of noting key GOP desires that are missing from it, promising later phases that are unlikely to happen. And from the house side... the side said to be most concerned with costs and prices... they couldn't speak to any of that because they avoided any financial review of the consequences of the bill for fear they might be worse. And then on the senate side, they have already lost enough GOP senators that they cannot cross even 50 votes.

And in the end, it is a bill that is likely to increase the rate of insured, while still mandating that insurance companies cover pre-existing conditions, and guts funding and access to the government options. After all, under their plan, I could pay for insurance only when I needed it, and the only penalty I would receive is a potential extra 30% cost for a year. So.... 4 months insurance payment, spread out over a year.... to avoid have to pay for years of insurance.

It also add that extra cost for anyone who lets their coverage lapse 60 days, such as a job change. So... you're penalized in getting insurance in the new job because HR wanted 60-90 days to sign you up as a new employee.

And at the same time, the tax credits are said to be based on age instead of income... allowing older folks to get twice the tax credits of younger folks. Though it raised the allowable billing difference to 1:5 young:old per the costs from the 1:3 ratio of obamacare. So... they get double the tax credits... and 5 times the cost?

The fireworks are only just beginning.
Logged
Russ White

*
Offline Offline

Location: Orange City, Fl
Joined: Feb 27, 2007
Posts: 5153

View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Mar 08, 2017, 05:20AM »

THis is a train wreck in the making. It is horrible for the poor, the sick, and the elderly in this country, but it is solid gold for the electoral prospects of the Dems in 2018. IT will be interesting to watch this play out.
Logged

Better than yesterday, better yet tomorrow.
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18506
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Mar 08, 2017, 05:56AM »

THis is a train wreck in the making. It is horrible for the poor, the sick, and the elderly in this country, but it is solid gold for the electoral prospects of the Dems in 2018. IT will be interesting to watch this play out.

"Interesting" isn't the word I'd go with, but it's still true.
 
What we need to watch and study and figure out how to correct is how hard core Trumpistanians will manage to maintain their beliefs in spite of clear, directly contrary evidence and even serious personal loss.
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
Russ White

*
Offline Offline

Location: Orange City, Fl
Joined: Feb 27, 2007
Posts: 5153

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Mar 08, 2017, 06:18AM »


Trumpistanians


I prefer "Trumpanzees".

THis is only one disaster teh GOP Congress intends to inflict on the American people. It is going to be a truly ugly 2 years. One can only hope the Persisterhood is real, and I'm seeing significant evidence that it is, and that it can get more than 50% of eligible voters to the polls in 2018. If 70% of AMerican voters actually got to the polls the GOP (Government of Pitin) would never win another election.
Logged

Better than yesterday, better yet tomorrow.
Stan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: Mar 2, 2003
Posts: 536

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Mar 08, 2017, 06:18AM »

This is an existential threat to the US, and it's the major civil rights issue of the age.  I only see one of two possibilities:

1.  The ensuing fight crystallizes the belief that it's in our national interest to have a healthy populace, and that healthcare is a right (an entitlement) to living in a modernized democratic state.  The only place to go from there is a single-payer system that spreads cost and access to everyone.  Medicare of all.

2.  The Right digs in and repeats "Access to healthcare is a right" so many times that everyone believes it.  Access means cost, and healthcare is expensive when cost isn't shared across a large pool of payers.  The poor and middle classes get choked out of healthcare until they get priced out of the sector entirely.  The major health crises we continue to face will worsen until there's a mandatory correction, precipitated by actual waves of death and bankruptcy.  

You just can't have it both ways folks.  If healthcare is a commodity, and you want to have a for-profit industry, then you need to swipe people's credit cards BEFORE you offer them treatment.  If you can't pay, you don't get treated.  

If healthcare is a public service, and you have to offer treatment to anyone that shows up at an emergency room, then you have to treat it like a public service and find a way to pay for it with taxes.

If you run a healthcare system as a for-profit enterprise, but you are legally required to treat anyone, regardless of their ability to pay, then you get what we have:  A large, bloated, money-hungry system on the verge of bankruptcy with skyrocketing costs and crappy returns.  

I'd love to see a single-payer system, and I tend to be pretty libertarian.  If everybody pays into the system, and we can keep our citizenry healthier longer, then we have more people working in the economic sector.  Keep people healthy = people work longer = people spend longer = better economy and healthier populace to take advantage of it. I really can't understand why we're so resistant to that.

Being healthy isn't a choice.  It's a requirement to being an active, productive member of a society.
Logged
B0B
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 27, 2008
Posts: 5594

View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Mar 08, 2017, 06:32AM »

Fun side, but relevant note:

The US population is ~320 million.

Of that...

111 million use medicare
70 million use medicaid
9 million use the VA

Which puts roughly 60% of the US population on a government healthcare plan.

The idea that we can't tolerate a government run system, when most people already use government systems for healthcare... that's a bit of an intentionally blind philosophy there.
Logged
B0B
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 27, 2008
Posts: 5594

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Mar 09, 2017, 10:23AM »

Well... just a few days into this, the GOP is trying to rush their plan through the house to say they've "done something"... not even with a CBO estimate to say if it actually does anything, and if so what... And senators on both sides are saying it's DOA should it ever pass the house and get to the senate.

Looks like political posturing to say "we did our part" with nothing actually "did" behind it.

Can't say I'll be sad to watch this die a slow and painful death.
Logged
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51021
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Mar 09, 2017, 10:54AM »

What Ryan and company proposed is nowhere near as good as Obamacare, even with all Obamacare's faults.  It certainly won't meet the Trump requirement of "better".

Ryan takes aim at Medicaid, trying to squelch it.  Also, what good is a tax credit when you can't afford the premium in the first place?

It feels like the Republicans are trying to stiff the poor and needy.  It will backfire in that those folks will once again clog the emergency rooms at hospitals for medical care that could easily be done in a doctor's office.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9547

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Mar 09, 2017, 01:01PM »

I really think we need to do away with employer provided health plans and move to associations for group plans.

The Trombone Forum has over 18K members. We should be able to negotiate a pretty good plan with that many members!

That way, when people change jobs, it doesn't affect their plans.

If young people decide to gamble and not buy insurance, if they get a major problem, too bad. Put them in a high risk pool until they are cured, then give them a choice to move into a plan, or stay in the high risk pool.

If you gamble and never need it, then, good for you.

People's choice - Pro Choice. Instead of killing a baby, you get to gamble with YOUR health, and not my bank account.

Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6061

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Mar 09, 2017, 01:02PM »

THis is a train wreck in the making. It is horrible for the poor, the sick, and the elderly in this country, but it is solid gold for the electoral prospects of the Dems in 2018.

I'm doubtful the Dems will get much advantage from it.

The "individual mandate" is such an unpopular concept, and it is so difficult to explain the reason for it (the explanation doesn't fit on a bumper sticker), that it will continue to sway decisive numbers of the "uneducated" demographic to the Republicans.

The old system was also horrible for the poor and the sick and the elderly weren't crazy about it either, but what did the Dems get for trying to fix it?  Loss of the House, loss of the Senate, loss of numerous state legislative seats.

Most people imagine they will never need expensive health care and don't like the idea of everyone paying to help the few who do.

Fixing health care will never be as popular as telling people you want to give them a tax cut.

Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51021
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: Mar 09, 2017, 01:31PM »

I really think we need to do away with employer provided health plans and move to associations for group plans.

The Trombone Forum has over 18K members. We should be able to negotiate a pretty good plan with that many members!

That way, when people change jobs, it doesn't affect their plans.

If young people decide to gamble and not buy insurance, if they get a major problem, too bad. Put them in a high risk pool until they are cured, then give them a choice to move into a plan, or stay in the high risk pool.

If you gamble and never need it, then, good for you.

People's choice - Pro Choice. Instead of killing a baby, you get to gamble with YOUR health, and not my bank account.


This is actually something my father-in-law had.  He didn't get health insurance from his various garment manufacturers, but instead he got it from his Union.

I think this is a rare moment.  We actually agree on something -- that health care shouldn't depend on employment and everybody should be able to get coverage from an entity.  I would like it to be a single payer; either Government or a non-profit.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9547

View Profile
« Reply #11 on: Mar 09, 2017, 01:43PM »

This is actually something my father-in-law had.  He didn't get health insurance from his various garment manufacturers, but instead he got it from his Union.

I think this is a rare moment.  We actually agree on something -- that health care shouldn't depend on employment and everybody should be able to get coverage from an entity.  I would like it to be a single payer; either Government or a non-profit.

Hold your horses!

You want single payer ( no competition )(one size fits all) (take it or leave it ) plus single payer to be the government?

Look at the VA to see how well the government runs healthcare. Geeesh!

I like the formations of associations. We already have some of those right now, so the model is already set. Like AARP offers one of the best competitive solutions, but there could be thousands of others (associations). Say for instance the Criminals United Slush Funds, or National Organization for Terrorists, America's Finest Jazz Bands, just to name a few.

Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51021
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: Mar 09, 2017, 01:46PM »

Actually, AFM offers health insurance also, but you have to work a certain number of hours a month to qualify.  I looked into this when I lost my last job.

You planning on joining United ISIS Terrorists? Evil :-P (Allah Akhbar!)
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9547

View Profile
« Reply #13 on: Mar 09, 2017, 01:49PM »

Actually, AFM offers health insurance also, but you have to work a certain number of hours a month to qualify.  I looked into this when I lost my last job.

You planning on joining United ISIS Terrorists? Evil :-P (Allah Akhbar!)

Sure, if I need insurance.  Evil

Like I said, The Trombone Forum could offer a plan since there are so many members. You should probably have a requirement of so many a posts per week or month to stay eligible.
Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
Russ White

*
Offline Offline

Location: Orange City, Fl
Joined: Feb 27, 2007
Posts: 5153

View Profile
« Reply #14 on: Mar 09, 2017, 03:03PM »

Hold your horses!

Look at the VA to see how well the government runs healthcare. Geeesh!


Actually, that statement is horse bleep. The problems at the VA had nothing to do with the quality of its medical care, and everything to do with the GOP Congress not funding the the VA adequately to process the massive numbers of new veterans their wars created. I do not know a single veteran who would trade his VA coverage, once they are into the system, for anything that exists in the private sector. My Dad had multiple medical issues that were handled exceptionally well for years. It was when he was dumped into the cesspool of the for-profit health care system in Texas by the transport protocols of a local EMS provider that the system killed him. Had they transported him to the VA instead of the closest facility he might still be with us.
Logged

Better than yesterday, better yet tomorrow.
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9547

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: Mar 09, 2017, 03:04PM »

Actually, that statement is horse bleep. The problems at the VA had nothing to do with the quality of its medical care, and everything to do with the GOP Congress not funding the the VA adequately to process the massive numbers of new veterans their wars created. I do not know a single veteran who would trade his VA coverage, once they are into the system, for anything that exists in the private sector. My Dad had multiple medical issues that were handled exceptionally well for years. It was when he was dumped into the cesspool of the for-profit health care system in Texas by the transport protocols of a local EMS provider that the system killed him. Had they transported him to the VA instead of the closest facility he might still be with us.

Money! That's the only excuse that the leftists ever give. Never enough money. BS!

Look, if the government took over as single payer, that would be what we hear every election cycle, every budget battle.

The system is failing, and it's failing because we don't have enough money. According to the leftists, that's why our education is failing. Not enough money. Ha!
Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
slide advantage
*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Apr 18, 2016
Posts: 753

View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: Mar 09, 2017, 03:15PM »

Money! That's the only excuse that the leftists ever give. Never enough money. BS!

Look, if the government took over as single payer, that would be what we hear every election cycle, every budget battle.

The system is failing, and it's failing because we don't have enough money. According to the leftists, that's why our education is failing. Not enough money. Ha!

Instant of knee jerk condemnation to all things liberal, perhaps you could take a deep breath, calm down and look at things without your biased and ridiculous prejudices.

Same stale talking points over and over again. But it isn't any wonder considering your sources for what passes for truth on your planet. At least the sources you consistently cite.

Yawn
Logged
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9547

View Profile
« Reply #17 on: Mar 09, 2017, 03:19PM »

Same stale talking points over and over again.

That's what I'm saying. Come up with something more creative than "We need more money". That's stale as you put it.

Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18506
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: Mar 09, 2017, 04:16PM »

Instant of knee jerk condemnation to all things liberal, perhaps you could take a deep breath, calm down and look at things without your biased and ridiculous prejudices.
 
Same stale talking points over and over again. But it isn't any wonder considering your sources for what passes for truth on your planet. At least the sources you consistently cite.
 
Yawn

Just needs to throw some words out there, more or less like a three-year-old just yelling in defiance of reality.
 
We all know this. It's as reliable as the smells that follow after a cat leaves the litter box.
 
The bizarre phenomenon is those who can be relied upon to feed it for some reason.
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
Ellrod

*
Online Online

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6274

View Profile
« Reply #19 on: Mar 09, 2017, 04:30PM »

The alternatives:

1. People pay their own bills. Nobody wants that. Sick people become poor people become dead people. Dead people can't pay their medical bills. Even the GOP see the flaws.

2. Private insurance. Sounds good from an ideological perspective. Free enterprise! Except experience shows that it is barely economically viable. So you've got to narrow the pool of insureds (no pre-existing conditions), increase revenue/premiukms (co-pays) and limit services. GOP likes it because it produces millionaire cardiologists and CEOs of health insurers.

3. Obama care/single payer. Antithetical to American freedoms and liberties because you widen the pool of insureds by requiring everyone, especially the young/healthy, to buy coverage. Except even this isn't quite economically viable because you still need tax credits and subsidies. In other words, tax revenues to partially fund the system. And it's still not enough.

Trump-care is bound to fail except on ideological terms. It will not improve health outcomes.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 ... 9  All   Go Up
Print
Jump to: