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Author Topic: GOP Health Care  (Read 6997 times)
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ddickerson

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« Reply #160 on: May 06, 2017, 04:27AM »

I was thinking along the lines of:

1 - some people may have problems with pre-existing conditions because they lost their insurance coverage because of a)changing jobs b)layoff or c)fired. Thus, when they find a new job and get new insurance they have pre-existing conditions

2 - some people are young and healthy and choose, on their own free will, (a)maybe because where they work doesn't offer insurance, b)they are self employed, c)they choose to stay unemployed, more then employed,) to not purchase health insurance. Then, when they do choose to purchase insurance, they have pre-existing conditions.

3 - I'm sure there are other reasons, etc
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« Reply #161 on: May 06, 2017, 05:30AM »

Won't they keep getting the same healthcare benefits they do now?  If so, they won't be affected at all.
Not necessarily.  There is a weasel path in this that allows some large insurers to follow rules across state lines.  Thus, some state is going to drop the condition and become the 'Delaware of cheap insurance'. Do you think that in the next inevitable downturn a whole ton of businesses that provide healthcare would jump on that to save a quick buck.  I'd bet your life that they would.  Funny thing, if you are insured through work, most don't notice that their plan is often cancelled and replaced every single year, they just think of it as the 'changes' in policy for this year. Odd that this has happened for years, but only became a thing when folks noticed it with individual policies under Obamacare.

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« Reply #162 on: May 06, 2017, 05:34AM »

I was thinking along the lines of:

1 - some people may have problems with pre-existing conditions because they lost their insurance coverage because of a)changing jobs b)layoff or c)fired. Thus, when they find a new job and get new insurance they have pre-existing conditions

2 - some people are young and healthy and choose, on their own free will, (a)maybe because where they work doesn't offer insurance, b)they are self employed, c)they choose to stay unemployed, more then employed,) to not purchase health insurance. Then, when they do choose to purchase insurance, they have pre-existing conditions.

3 - I'm sure there are other reasons, etc
Interesting line of thought, but with the system we have in place now, this would force those of less means to stay there.  Having mandatory coverage for pre-existing conditions allows all to have more mobility to move and not get trapped when they are covered.  I'm sure we could come up with a large series of rules to try to keep it fair, but this is how things like the tax code get complicated.  This issue is already complicated enough, any rule is going to be framed as unnecessarily cruel to somebody.. why seek that out politically?

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #163 on: May 06, 2017, 06:26AM »

yesterday I read a post of Larry Meregilano, saying that he found himself forced to leave US as he lost coverage because of that Trump pre-existing condition thing.

Sounds pretty extreme to me.
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« Reply #164 on: May 06, 2017, 06:27AM »

One issue that really has driven healthcare for the last umpteen years is "Pre-Existing Conditions".

There are many ways to become a member of this group, and they're not equal. However, all discussions treat this group as a uniform group when they're not. So, the arguments made for/against is thrown out there, as if everything is equal. I think this group should be broken up into different categories so that the solutions are different for each category.

Any thoughts?


One of the problems with "pre-existing conditions" is that almost anyone can have one if their insurance company decides they do. Any common illness in the past, any family history of anything could be trotted out as a reason to deny coverage, even after you've been paying premiums for years one health insurance policy.

My dad had a bypass when he was 85+.  Now I have a family history of "heart disease".

Insurance companies had whole departments dedicated to finding a premise for dropping customers who had become expensive.

Any inaccuracy on your application was grounds for cancelling coverage. Your grandfather who died before you were even born had diabetes? And you didn't reveal that on your application?  Now they can cut you loose.

Long before she became a Senator, that's the problem Elizabeth Warren was trying to alert people to. Your policy, even an expensive policy, could become worthless once you got sick.

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« Reply #165 on: May 06, 2017, 11:33AM »

Won't they keep getting the same healthcare benefits they do now?  If so, they won't be affected at all.
Generally not.

Health care policies and coverage generally change annually.

It's the problem Obama ran into with the whole, "if you like your plan you can keep your plan" thing. Yes, the older plans would have been grandfathered in... but between how often insurance companies change plans and people change jobs and such and thus coverage... Keeping the same plan, as is, for years and years at a time just doesn't happen very much anymore.
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« Reply #166 on: May 06, 2017, 11:36AM »

It turns out... no one needs health insurance because "Nobody dies because they don’t have access to health care."

Says Rep Raul Labrador (R-ID)


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/X_1wUwzVuIs" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/v/X_1wUwzVuIs</a>
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« Reply #167 on: May 06, 2017, 11:40AM »

I was thinking along the lines of:

1 - some people may have problems with pre-existing conditions because they lost their insurance coverage because of a)changing jobs b)layoff or c)fired. Thus, when they find a new job and get new insurance they have pre-existing conditions

2 - some people are young and healthy and choose, on their own free will, (a)maybe because where they work doesn't offer insurance, b)they are self employed, c)they choose to stay unemployed, more then employed,) to not purchase health insurance. Then, when they do choose to purchase insurance, they have pre-existing conditions.

3 - I'm sure there are other reasons, etc

Another unfortunate reality is that health trouble can happen at any time, out of the blue. A car wreck for instance is a common thing.

Preexisting conditions are a valid concern with insurance, where they don't want to foot the bill after you find out you have an expensive illness. But insurance companies also like to abuse it for their own ends, and also prior to obamacare could terminate a plan any time they liked... such as when a client found out they had an expensive condition.

And then guess who has a pre-existing condition when they try to sign up with someone else?

But in truth... our healthcare is both incredibly expensive and incredibly complicated. The latter makes then former impossible to deal with on it's own. And in the end, you don't know the price of a procedure when you sign up for it, or when you sign in and agree to pay for it, or when you get the bill, or possibly even after insurance covers some and you get another bill... there may be negotiations and such after that point.

Trump was right when he said Australia has better health care than us. Much much cheaper too. Unfortunately, the plan the GOP is currently pushing would make the system even MORE complex, without dealing with the price issue, thus likely to make it even more expensive... Kinda the opposite direction we need to go.

And they really can't say why...
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« Reply #168 on: May 06, 2017, 12:57PM »

It turns out... no one needs health insurance because "Nobody dies because they don’t have access to health care."

Says Rep Raul Labrador (R-ID)


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/X_1wUwzVuIs" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/v/X_1wUwzVuIs</a>

It is hard to imagine that even he believes what he is saying.

Fool
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« Reply #169 on: May 06, 2017, 01:21PM »

It is hard to imagine that even he believes what he is saying.

Fool

He'll tell you that anyone who is sick can just go to the emergency room, so everyone has access to health care, therefore... no one is dying because they don't have health care.

I'm  not joking.  That is the premise the GOP  points to.
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« Reply #170 on: May 06, 2017, 04:20PM »

One issue that really has driven healthcare for the last umpteen years is "Pre-Existing Conditions".

There are many ways to become a member of this group, and they're not equal. However, all discussions treat this group as a uniform group when they're not. So, the arguments made for/against is thrown out there, as if everything is equal. I think this group should be broken up into different categories so that the solutions are different for each category.

Any thoughts?


That makes sense.

The biggest problem with the 'pre-existing conditions' coverage is that if you're not careful it allows people to wait and buy insurance after they're already sick. Like if you drive your car into the ditch and call to buy insurance from the ditch.

The mandates were designed to prevent this. The problem is that everyone--Dems and GOP--loved the pre-ex aspect of Obamacare and hated the mandates. But the two are inextricably linked, and because of the unpopularity of mandates, they were made too weak, which reduced the efficacy of the program. The GOP has partly addressed this by saying that you're protected if you have continuous insurance, but there will be situations where that rolls people off the bus.

Essentially, the GOP's proposal is majoritarian--we can lower your rates by screwing over sick and old people, and there aren't enough sick and old people not already on Medicare to vote us out.
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« Reply #171 on: May 06, 2017, 06:33PM »

He'll tell you that anyone who is sick can just go to the emergency room, so everyone has access to health care, therefore... no one is dying because they don't have health care.

I'm  not joking.  That is the premise the GOP  points to.
And, I have two dead immediate family members whose stories tell the lie of that position.
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« Reply #172 on: May 06, 2017, 06:40PM »

B0B & elmslander, I meant won't the members of congress who voted for this travesty have the same insurance after they are out of office as they do now?
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« Reply #173 on: May 06, 2017, 06:58PM »

I hear people say "I shouldn't have to pay for other people's health care".   My brother worked as a nurse/case manager for the county hospital in Cleveland for 30 years.   Diabetics couldn't afford to see a doc or get all their medication so ended up in the ER with infected feet that required amputation.  It would have cost a lot less for the people to get regular checkups, affordable medication, and wound care than to have surgery.  Same with women who didn't get regular PAP smears and mammograms who ended up with major cancer.  Who paid for the surgery and hospital stays costing thousands of dollars?  Taxpayers. 

I have never had kids.  However, I still pay school taxes.  Why should I pay for other people's kids to get an education?  IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO! 
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« Reply #174 on: May 06, 2017, 07:12PM »

B0B & elmslander, I meant won't the members of congress who voted for this travesty have the same insurance after they are out of office as they do now?
Why would they?  Contrary to common perception, there is no lifetime coverage for house members.  Hasn't been for decades.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #175 on: May 06, 2017, 07:13PM »

yesterday I read a post of Larry Meregilano, saying that he found himself forced to leave US as he lost coverage because of that Trump pre-existing condition thing.

Sounds pretty extreme to me.
Nobody has lost anything yet, this isn't law yet, and won't be for quite a long time.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #176 on: May 07, 2017, 07:49AM »

Nobody has lost anything yet, this isn't law yet, and won't be for quite a long time.

 ... or never.
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« Reply #177 on: May 07, 2017, 07:54AM »

I hear people say "I shouldn't have to pay for other people's health care".   My brother worked as a nurse/case manager for the county hospital in Cleveland for 30 years.   Diabetics couldn't afford to see a doc or get all their medication so ended up in the ER with infected feet that required amputation.  It would have cost a lot less for the people to get regular checkups, affordable medication, and wound care than to have surgery.  Same with women who didn't get regular PAP smears and mammograms who ended up with major cancer.  Who paid for the surgery and hospital stays costing thousands of dollars?  Taxpayers. 
 
I have never had kids.  However, I still pay school taxes.  Why should I pay for other people's kids to get an education?  IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

This blindness seems to be frequently accompanied by infrastructure blindness, and the blindness regarding the fact that wealth inequitably distributed can be corrected by redistributing it equitably. These are all things that anyone who won't flatline an EEG should be able to spot about as easily as an approaching locomotive, but many can obviously be more or less programmed not to see such things, and incredible as that seems to those of us without these bizarre selective blindness issues.
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« Reply #178 on: May 07, 2017, 09:46AM »

...These are all things that anyone who won't flatline an EEG should be able to spot about as easily as an approaching locomotive...

I'm sure everyone here has heard of "the tragedy of the commons", the principle that people will always tend to act in their own individual interest now, even though it will make everyone collectively worse off in the long run.

It seems very difficult for a government with elected officials, or companies with voting stock holders or any organization, really, to structure itself so that it can make decisions that are insulated from that driving temptation of "I want mine now!".

The founders thought they might evade that by giving the Senate 6 year terms and the President four, but the House with its two-year terms has always been a incubator for the most short-sighted ideas to fester.  And if you add a weak Senate and clueless President to that...



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