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Author Topic: Advice on Hitting High Notes?  (Read 12592 times)
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timothy42b
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« Reply #60 on: Mar 19, 2017, 09:02AM »

It's both, actually.

But in my case, we won't talk about which orifice.   :-0

...Geezer

An aperture is a three dimensional tunnel.  An orifice is a two dimensional hole in a thin flat plate. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #61 on: Mar 19, 2017, 09:40AM »

An aperture is a three dimensional tunnel.  An orifice is a two dimensional hole in a thin flat plate. 

Maybe so, but the term "aperture" is used for the embouchure producing the sound.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #62 on: Mar 19, 2017, 10:42AM »

And it's simply ludicrous to try playing high notes on a pedal tone oral cavity. So the size, shape, etc of the oral cavity must - of necessity - change, as does the aperture.

...Geezer
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timothy42b
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« Reply #63 on: Mar 19, 2017, 04:19PM »

Maybe so, but the term "aperture" is used for the embouchure producing the sound.

Yes, and that is correct.  The embouchure passage through which air passes is a three dimensional tunnel.  It's not a circle, it's a cylinder (or some variation on that shape.) 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #64 on: Mar 19, 2017, 04:49PM »

And this pedantry is going where exactly?
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« Reply #65 on: Mar 19, 2017, 05:05PM »

That's what I want to know as well.

How is the OP being helped?

I don't mean this rhetorically. How IS the OP being helped with junk science?

...Geezer
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Pre59

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« Reply #66 on: Mar 20, 2017, 03:16AM »

That's what I want to know as well.

How is the OP being helped?

I don't mean this rhetorically. How IS the OP being helped with junk science?

...Geezer

I don't think that you can help anybody do anything unless they're willing to get involved and engage in a dialogue..

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Geezerhorn

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« Reply #67 on: Mar 20, 2017, 05:23AM »

I don't think that you can help anybody do anything unless they're willing to get involved and engage in a dialogue..


Yeah. That's the other side of the coin. It's a discussion. And since we probably gave good responses some three pages ago, the OP isn't helped by the snarky comment Mr P. made; who never made any positive contributions to this thread in the first place.

Some of us may think higher notes are achieved by re-positioning the horn on the chops (or the chops on the horn - however you wish to think). While others of us may think that higher notes are achieved by concentrating on managing the air stream via the aperture, chops, oral cavity and perhaps even the stomach muscles. Another way may be to select the equipment best suited for playing high; i.e. a smaller-bore horn and possibly either a smaller and/or shallower cupped mouthpiece. Still others may employ a mixed combination of the above three concepts. I really don't know if there is even another way still. Probably, and perhaps that will surface.

...Geezer
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Pre59

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« Reply #68 on: Mar 20, 2017, 07:43AM »

Er, whats the value of free advice again?
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Geezerhorn

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« Reply #69 on: Mar 20, 2017, 07:51AM »

Er, whats the value of free advice again?

Depends...

If the so-called "advice" is given by an amateur - nil. If the exact same so-called "advice" is given by a pro - tons. It's human nature for people to want good ideas from "good" sources. Otherwise, they are skeptical, and probably rightly so.

How much value do you put on YOUR free advice?

May we return to topic?

...Geezer
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timothy42b
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« Reply #70 on: Mar 20, 2017, 08:42AM »

I would not have described the aperture as a tunnel rather than a circle if I did not think it had some application to the topic.

I do still think that recommending an exercise, any exercise, without some details on how to do it does not help much. 

I also think that if the high range you're struggling with is F above the staff to high Bb, that may not be the same as struggling with high Bb to alt-F. 

There are those who struggle with alt-F to double F - they can post in some other thread. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #71 on: Mar 20, 2017, 09:04AM »

I would not have described the aperture as a tunnel rather than a circle if I did not think it had some application to the topic.

I do still think that recommending an exercise, any exercise, without some details on how to do it does not help much. 

I also think that if the high range you're struggling with is F above the staff to high Bb, that may not be the same as struggling with high Bb to alt-F. 

There are those who struggle with alt-F to double F - they can post in some other thread. 

FWIW and for the purpose of your part in this discussion Tim, I agree with your assertions. Technically. I say, technically the aperture is 3-dimensional, unless the chops are the thickness or less of an electron and we (hopefully) all know they are not, hopefully. But truthfully, I have no clue as to what, if any value your concept has to the OP. It has none for me.

Apparently, the physics of a trombone (or maybe it's human physiology) is such that many of us can attain a good high C and no higher. There appears to be a break at that point and a high D is a whole 'nuther thing, as though there were a couple of rungs missing on the ladder upwards. But yes, I believe the OP's problems lie far below that point and it should be possible for him to correct and ascend rapidly.

...Geezer
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« Reply #72 on: Mar 20, 2017, 10:09AM »

Looking back over my posts on this topic I think that I've given some points worth considering, and I don't believe in long posts, I'd rather see how much genuine interest there is first.

As to whether the advice I attempt to give is as an amateur or pro, well, only a few hours ago I was in discussion with my accountant about winding my business up as the latter, and bring it on that's what I say.

But because we're not sat around in the same room with our hooters at the ready, it's all just "flim flam" anyway.

Enjoy your struggle..
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« Reply #73 on: Mar 20, 2017, 11:27AM »

Looking back over my posts on this topic I think that I've given some points worth considering, and I don't believe in long posts, I'd rather see how much genuine interest there is first.

As to whether the advice I attempt to give is as an amateur or pro, well, only a few hours ago I was in discussion with my accountant about winding my business up as the latter, and bring it on that's what I say.

But because we're not sat around in the same room with our hooters at the ready, it's all just "flim flam" anyway.

Enjoy your struggle..

I'm never quite sure to whom you are directing all of your comments! You didn't quote me, but you posted directly underneath mine and with no direction as to whomever.  So   Don't know

It may have been a struggle for you, but it's growth for me and for - I hope - the OP as well!  :)

Hopefully we have muddied the waters enough that he will high-tail it to his instructor for guidance, which he should do anyway.  :D

...Geezer
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« Reply #74 on: Mar 21, 2017, 06:53AM »

The aperture is not like a tunnel or a circle. Its more like two roof tiles laid over one another. And depending on your under or overbite, the tiles might overlap a lot or a little bit. The air goes through it sort of like air going over a wing on a plane or through the cut in a flute. Changing the aperture changes how that airflow works.
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« Reply #75 on: Mar 21, 2017, 07:08AM »

The aperture is not like a tunnel or a circle. Its more like two roof tiles laid over one another. And depending on your under or overbite, the tiles might overlap a lot or a little bit. The air goes through it sort of like air going over a wing on a plane or through the cut in a flute. Changing the aperture changes how that airflow works.

Do you see any narrowing of the width of those tiles (I like that) when ascending? Or does the aperture have one width through all ranges?

...Geezer
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« Reply #76 on: Mar 21, 2017, 07:18AM »

Just hit the damn notes, guys  :/

It's a whole entity with tongue position, jaw position etc IMHO. you can't just change one component, this is not a modular trombone  :D
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Geezerhorn

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« Reply #77 on: Mar 21, 2017, 08:41AM »

Just hit the damn notes, guys  :/

It's a whole entity with tongue position, jaw position etc IMHO. you can't just change one component, this is not a modular trombone  :D

Lol. Really now. Don't you get  that if the OP and obviously some others could, they would !?! I don't think anyone analyzes what they can  do; they tend to over-analyze what they can't  do.

But yes, it seems to be just as highly coordinated as any other note is. It's just that we've had a LOT more time to establish it on the "other" notes. We've all played those "other" - lower - notes since childhood and have grown into them. We can grow into an upper range, but it always seems to take more time and effort. A real  high range doesn't seem like it's something that can be rushed or flipped on like a light switch.

IOW's, if was easy - everyone would be playing extremely high all day long.

...Geezer
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« Reply #78 on: Mar 21, 2017, 08:58AM »

A real  high range doesn't seem like it's something that can be rushed or flipped on like a light switch

Absolutely. I found that both on trumpet and trombone, soft playing of slurs and trills helps and forces (if the subject is not doing anything "funny" with his lips setting and mouthpiece placement) us to put everything in place as it should be. But it is not an overnight process. And often first, we get a squeak which eventually develops into a musical sound (note).
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« Reply #79 on: Mar 21, 2017, 09:39AM »

Absolutely. I found that both on trumpet and trombone, soft playing of slurs and trills helps and forces (if the subject is not doing anything "funny" with his lips setting and mouthpiece placement) us to put everything in place as it should be. But it is not an overnight process. And often first, we get a squeak which eventually develops into a musical sound (note).

 Good!

I can't speak for anyone else, but part of my problem developing a "professional high range" is the amount of practice time I do every day. This past winter, I have been putting in a solid 4 hours a day; divided more-or-less equally into two sessions - morning and evening. While I am advancing on pretty much all fronts rapidly (under expert instruction!), I am fighting fatigue of high range. Otherwise, I am getting chops of steel and so I guess it's just a matter of time...

Notice I put the term "professional high range" in quotes. Anticipating some of the sharp-shooters calling me on it, I define a "professional high range" as full use of high D for an entry-level tenor pro and advancement on up as the pro seasons. I know there are a number of pros who can not play above high C. But that doesn't change how I view it. YMMV!

...Geezer
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