Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1087224 Posts in 72006 Topics- by 19242 Members - Latest Member: simonvd
Jump to:  
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: King 3B+  (Read 2756 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Bellend

*
Offline Offline

Location: U.K.
Joined: Nov 25, 2001
Posts: 693

View Profile
« on: Mar 14, 2017, 01:48PM »

King 3B+ large jazz horn? or small legit horn?

First hand experiences only please   :D  :D  :D

Thanks

BellEnd
Logged
Exzaclee

*
Offline Offline

Location: Edmond, OK
Joined: Mar 8, 2008
Posts: 6569
"Check out my new website!"


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Mar 14, 2017, 02:15PM »

Depends on what you play with it I guess...

I used one in a gig that required a bit of everything - a cruise ship gig (much more variety in the gig back then) and a few musicals. Often described as "neither fish nor fowl", I found that description lacking. Low range was adequate for the pit work I was doing at the time, great all around commercial horn. The only thing I found it harder to do was play more up tempo stuff requiring a lot of improvisation. I personally find smaller horns easier for handling cherokee at 300. If someone is better with a big horn, they likely won't experience the same drawback.

It's not a 3B, nothing like it really - it felt much bigger.  If you're used to the 3B, this doesn't just feel like a bigger 3B. Response is totally different, and high range slots a little better although doesn't feel as punchy.

It's been 15 years since I sold that horn. It was from the 80's (a 2125 I think.) Good horn, I'd like to have it back.
Logged

Music is my mistress, and she plays second fiddle to no one!
www.zacleemusic.com
Bellend

*
Offline Offline

Location: U.K.
Joined: Nov 25, 2001
Posts: 693

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Mar 15, 2017, 06:11AM »

Thanks for that, just what I wanted to know.


BellEnd
Logged
afugate

*
Offline Offline

Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Joined: Mar 24, 2013
Posts: 467

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Mar 16, 2017, 05:35AM »

Depends on what you play with it I guess...

I used one in a gig that required a bit of everything - a cruise ship gig (much more variety in the gig back then) and a few musicals. Often described as "neither fish nor fowl", I found that description lacking. Low range was adequate for the pit work I was doing at the time, great all around commercial horn. The only thing I found it harder to do was play more up tempo stuff requiring a lot of improvisation. I personally find smaller horns easier for handling cherokee at 300. If someone is better with a big horn, they likely won't experience the same drawback.

It's not a 3B, nothing like it really - it felt much bigger.  If you're used to the 3B, this doesn't just feel like a bigger 3B. Response is totally different, and high range slots a little better although doesn't feel as punchy.

It's been 15 years since I sold that horn. It was from the 80's (a 2125 I think.) Good horn, I'd like to have it back.

Zac, was that a lightweight slide?  Or the standard weight slide?  (Presuming there is/was such an option for lightweight, of course.)

--Andy in OKC
Logged

I'm an optimist.  Some day, I'll sound like Bill Watrous.  And, I'm still waiting on that darned growth spurt!
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Online Online

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51143
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Mar 16, 2017, 07:26AM »

The 3B+ came with the standard weight nickel slide (brass single radius crook) like most King trombones.  I played an Anniversary SilverSonic 2125F for about a day.  I was underwhelmed by its workmanship (which is why I didn't buy it).  It felt like a 3B on steroids, but more refined in sound than the King small bores.  Really was in between a 3B and a 4B.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
Exzaclee

*
Offline Offline

Location: Edmond, OK
Joined: Mar 8, 2008
Posts: 6569
"Check out my new website!"


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Mar 16, 2017, 09:23AM »

Zac, was that a lightweight slide?  Or the standard weight slide?  (Presuming there is/was such an option for lightweight, of course.)

The horn I played was from the 80's, and I'm pretty sure it was a standard weight slide.
Logged

Music is my mistress, and she plays second fiddle to no one!
www.zacleemusic.com
TromboneMonkey

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Aug 16, 2009
Posts: 2386

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Mar 16, 2017, 11:57AM »

I've never played one I liked.  I seem to want to reach for edge that isn't there (although I could list salsa players that certainly do not have this issue).  Every one I've played has had a valve on it; that might make a difference. 

I wonder if a leadpipe swap would be a good investment for a 2103PL.

Regardless, in that range is a 78H which to me is a better horn and shares bell/slide geometry with smaller Kings.  A 34 (good luck finding one) is better if you're looking for a horn slightly more to the legit side.
Logged

-John
Bellend

*
Offline Offline

Location: U.K.
Joined: Nov 25, 2001
Posts: 693

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Mar 17, 2017, 03:19AM »

I've never played one I liked.  I seem to want to reach for edge that isn't there (although I could list salsa players that certainly do not have this issue).  Every one I've played has had a valve on it; that might make a difference. 

I wonder if a leadpipe swap would be a good investment for a 2103PL.

Regardless, in that range is a 78H which to me is a better horn and shares bell/slide geometry with smaller Kings.  A 34 (good luck finding one) is better if you're looking for a horn slightly more to the legit side.

What mouthpiece were you using when you tried them?

BellEnd
Logged
TromboneMonkey

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Aug 16, 2009
Posts: 2386

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Mar 17, 2017, 10:17AM »

What mouthpiece were you using when you tried them?

BellEnd

It's been a minute, but I want to say an Elliott e cup 4 shank.
Logged

-John
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7185

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Mar 17, 2017, 10:40AM »

It's funny. My perception of all the 3B+ and 4B with or with out f attachment had been that they were some of the edgier horns for their bore size. The 3B+ I've played actually feel similar to the 508 Shires that I have. Perhaps it would be more accurate of me to say they project more easily than others but I'm naturally a bright player so i have more trouble turning the edge off than turning it on which probably influences that...
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
bassclef

*
Offline Offline

Location: Massillon, OH
Joined: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 772

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: Mar 17, 2017, 11:11AM »

It's funny. My perception of all the 3B+ and 4B with or with out f attachment had been that they were some of the edgier horns for their bore size. The 3B+ I've played actually feel similar to the 508 Shires that I have. Perhaps it would be more accurate of me to say they project more easily than others but I'm naturally a bright player so i have more trouble turning the edge off than turning it on which probably influences that...
I'd agree with all of that.

I also spent several years on a Benge 175F, and sometimes a 160 straight bell, which I was told by someone who would know share many parts with the 3B+. Despite having "Symphonic" stamped on the bell, I always found them to play quite edgy and colorful and fit the large jazz horn description.

In contrast, I use a Yamaha 640 for my medium bore needs now and it has the small legit horn sound profile.
Logged

Aaron Thornberry
Bass & Tenor Trombonist
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram
Geordie
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
Posts: 123

View Profile
« Reply #11 on: Mar 17, 2017, 11:53AM »

Mine slots well, good upper range. Flexible horn, fits in British band and blues band in my experience. Agree with the earlier comment about it having and edge, but not in a bad way I think.
Logged

Life is not a rehearsal
modelerdc
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jul 14, 2006
Posts: 430

View Profile
« Reply #12 on: Mar 17, 2017, 09:01PM »

I've owned a couple. IMHO a bigger little horn, broader in tone than a stock 3B but very similar, actually I liked on of the two I've had better than any 3B, but it all depends on what you are looking for. Regular 3B is a better lead style horn, the 3B plus may be preferred for modern music with one trombone and you can use a broader sound to advantage. The 3B plus isn't like a 36 Bach, or like a large bore horn with a .525 slide, they play like little big horns to me.
Logged
Bellend

*
Offline Offline

Location: U.K.
Joined: Nov 25, 2001
Posts: 693

View Profile
« Reply #13 on: Mar 18, 2017, 03:48AM »

Thanks to everyone for the great feedback!, I was hoping that would be the consensus.

I'm considering a 3B+ as I need to play a horn with a wider hand slide and after trying two different crooks on my 16M's with out any success, I'm hoping that the larger bore of the King will not respond so negatively to this modification.

Now I need to find a used one as there doesn't seem to be many about.

Thanks again,


BellEnd
Logged
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7185

View Profile
« Reply #14 on: Mar 18, 2017, 05:00AM »

Thanks to everyone for the great feedback!, I was hoping that would be the consensus.

I'm considering a 3B+ as I need to play a horn with a wider hand slide and after trying two different crooks on my 16M's with out any success, I'm hoping that the larger bore of the King will not respond so negatively to this modification.

Now I need to find a used one as there doesn't seem to be many about.

Thanks again,


BellEnd

Maybe its the wider slide that you don't like in general?  I have a definite preference for narrower slides myself, and fortunately my small body frame supports my use of narrower slides.  FWIW, did you try changing the leadpipe at all after the modification?  If the wide slide, for example, is causing your sound to be less 'centered' as Shires puts it, then maybe a tighter leadpipe might alleviate the change in feel. Memory serving, the 16M leadpipe is pretty open and short to begin with. Might be cheaper than a new / used horn! Since you're on the other side of the pond, maybe a 10A leadpipe (I think thats the right bore size) would do well. Perhaps one in nickel too?

A few other things that might be useful...

This frankenhorn at Dillon actually plays pretty well. I remember seeing it and thinking that it was a bit over the top, even for me! http://www.dillonmusic.com/p-24308-bachkingedwards-hybrid.aspx . It has the normal King 3B outer slide on it, but I suspect with the 3B tuning slide you might find that it responds better. Of course, the shipping on such an experiment may not be worth it.

There are also a few other 525 horns on this page:

http://www.dillonmusic.com/c-1011-tenor-trombones.aspx?pagenum=6

King 607F and the Olds Ambassador that has a 510/525 bore size may also be worth considering.  But someone may well have a 3b+ sitting around too.
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
Bellend

*
Offline Offline

Location: U.K.
Joined: Nov 25, 2001
Posts: 693

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: Mar 18, 2017, 06:16AM »

I actually have the usual neck problem with narrow slides which means I struggle to get the mouthpiece on my chops.
On top of this I have been struggling with bicep tendonitis since before Christmas and the 'cramped up' hand position I have to adopt on my Bach's is I think aggravating the condition.

The Osteopath treating me is a friend and  I've had her holding the horn so she can feel and see what's involved.

I've just recently  switched to playing an old 70's straight King 4B with a small shank adaptor and almost immediately the pain in my arm/ shoulder has decreased hence the interest in a 3B+.

It's great getting old isn't it   :/

BellEnd
Logged
klimchak
*
Offline Offline

Location: Lancaster, PA
Joined: Aug 13, 2005
Posts: 414

View Profile
« Reply #16 on: Mar 18, 2017, 07:51AM »

BellEnd....sent you a pm.
Logged

Chris Klimchak
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7185

View Profile
« Reply #17 on: Mar 18, 2017, 11:36AM »

Yikes!

Yeah it makes sense that you'd like the 4B in its stock configuration, particularly since it was designed with that crook in mind. Hopefully the 3B+ works out for you. One more thought too: You may at some point give a Shires wide crook a try too. I had a 508/525 Shires slide and I don't know which crook the put on it, but it was labelled a TW0825GLW so on paper at least it had a wide slide. It played great!
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Online Online

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51143
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: Mar 18, 2017, 08:53PM »

The 3B+ slide was not as wide as the Bach 36 or Conn 79H.  That was one negative when I tested out mine.

You may want to settle on an older 4B with the adapter.  May "fit" better.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
greenbean
*
Offline Offline

Location: California
Joined: Dec 26, 2012
Posts: 1555
"Brass Kahuna"


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: Mar 18, 2017, 11:05PM »

Correct.  The 3B+ slide is the same width as a 3B.  A 4B slide is much wider...
Logged

--Yamaha 620G bass w/ Shires HW bell
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Up
Print
Jump to: