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Bellend

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« on: Mar 14, 2017, 01:48PM »

King 3B+ large jazz horn? or small legit horn?

First hand experiences only please   :D  :D  :D

Thanks

BellEnd
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« Reply #1 on: Mar 14, 2017, 02:15PM »

Depends on what you play with it I guess...

I used one in a gig that required a bit of everything - a cruise ship gig (much more variety in the gig back then) and a few musicals. Often described as "neither fish nor fowl", I found that description lacking. Low range was adequate for the pit work I was doing at the time, great all around commercial horn. The only thing I found it harder to do was play more up tempo stuff requiring a lot of improvisation. I personally find smaller horns easier for handling cherokee at 300. If someone is better with a big horn, they likely won't experience the same drawback.

It's not a 3B, nothing like it really - it felt much bigger.  If you're used to the 3B, this doesn't just feel like a bigger 3B. Response is totally different, and high range slots a little better although doesn't feel as punchy.

It's been 15 years since I sold that horn. It was from the 80's (a 2125 I think.) Good horn, I'd like to have it back.
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« Reply #2 on: Mar 15, 2017, 06:11AM »

Thanks for that, just what I wanted to know.


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« Reply #3 on: Mar 16, 2017, 05:35AM »

Depends on what you play with it I guess...

I used one in a gig that required a bit of everything - a cruise ship gig (much more variety in the gig back then) and a few musicals. Often described as "neither fish nor fowl", I found that description lacking. Low range was adequate for the pit work I was doing at the time, great all around commercial horn. The only thing I found it harder to do was play more up tempo stuff requiring a lot of improvisation. I personally find smaller horns easier for handling cherokee at 300. If someone is better with a big horn, they likely won't experience the same drawback.

It's not a 3B, nothing like it really - it felt much bigger.  If you're used to the 3B, this doesn't just feel like a bigger 3B. Response is totally different, and high range slots a little better although doesn't feel as punchy.

It's been 15 years since I sold that horn. It was from the 80's (a 2125 I think.) Good horn, I'd like to have it back.

Zac, was that a lightweight slide?  Or the standard weight slide?  (Presuming there is/was such an option for lightweight, of course.)

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« Reply #4 on: Mar 16, 2017, 07:26AM »

The 3B+ came with the standard weight nickel slide (brass single radius crook) like most King trombones.  I played an Anniversary SilverSonic 2125F for about a day.  I was underwhelmed by its workmanship (which is why I didn't buy it).  It felt like a 3B on steroids, but more refined in sound than the King small bores.  Really was in between a 3B and a 4B.
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« Reply #5 on: Mar 16, 2017, 09:23AM »

Zac, was that a lightweight slide?  Or the standard weight slide?  (Presuming there is/was such an option for lightweight, of course.)

The horn I played was from the 80's, and I'm pretty sure it was a standard weight slide.
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« Reply #6 on: Mar 16, 2017, 11:57AM »

I've never played one I liked.  I seem to want to reach for edge that isn't there (although I could list salsa players that certainly do not have this issue).  Every one I've played has had a valve on it; that might make a difference. 

I wonder if a leadpipe swap would be a good investment for a 2103PL.

Regardless, in that range is a 78H which to me is a better horn and shares bell/slide geometry with smaller Kings.  A 34 (good luck finding one) is better if you're looking for a horn slightly more to the legit side.
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« Reply #7 on: Mar 17, 2017, 03:19AM »

I've never played one I liked.  I seem to want to reach for edge that isn't there (although I could list salsa players that certainly do not have this issue).  Every one I've played has had a valve on it; that might make a difference. 

I wonder if a leadpipe swap would be a good investment for a 2103PL.

Regardless, in that range is a 78H which to me is a better horn and shares bell/slide geometry with smaller Kings.  A 34 (good luck finding one) is better if you're looking for a horn slightly more to the legit side.

What mouthpiece were you using when you tried them?

BellEnd
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« Reply #8 on: Mar 17, 2017, 10:17AM »

What mouthpiece were you using when you tried them?

BellEnd

It's been a minute, but I want to say an Elliott e cup 4 shank.
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« Reply #9 on: Mar 17, 2017, 10:40AM »

It's funny. My perception of all the 3B+ and 4B with or with out f attachment had been that they were some of the edgier horns for their bore size. The 3B+ I've played actually feel similar to the 508 Shires that I have. Perhaps it would be more accurate of me to say they project more easily than others but I'm naturally a bright player so i have more trouble turning the edge off than turning it on which probably influences that...
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« Reply #10 on: Mar 17, 2017, 11:11AM »

It's funny. My perception of all the 3B+ and 4B with or with out f attachment had been that they were some of the edgier horns for their bore size. The 3B+ I've played actually feel similar to the 508 Shires that I have. Perhaps it would be more accurate of me to say they project more easily than others but I'm naturally a bright player so i have more trouble turning the edge off than turning it on which probably influences that...
I'd agree with all of that.

I also spent several years on a Benge 175F, and sometimes a 160 straight bell, which I was told by someone who would know share many parts with the 3B+. Despite having "Symphonic" stamped on the bell, I always found them to play quite edgy and colorful and fit the large jazz horn description.

In contrast, I use a Yamaha 640 for my medium bore needs now and it has the small legit horn sound profile.
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« Reply #11 on: Mar 17, 2017, 11:53AM »

Mine slots well, good upper range. Flexible horn, fits in British band and blues band in my experience. Agree with the earlier comment about it having and edge, but not in a bad way I think.
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« Reply #12 on: Mar 17, 2017, 09:01PM »

I've owned a couple. IMHO a bigger little horn, broader in tone than a stock 3B but very similar, actually I liked on of the two I've had better than any 3B, but it all depends on what you are looking for. Regular 3B is a better lead style horn, the 3B plus may be preferred for modern music with one trombone and you can use a broader sound to advantage. The 3B plus isn't like a 36 Bach, or like a large bore horn with a .525 slide, they play like little big horns to me.
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Bellend

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« Reply #13 on: Mar 18, 2017, 03:48AM »

Thanks to everyone for the great feedback!, I was hoping that would be the consensus.

I'm considering a 3B+ as I need to play a horn with a wider hand slide and after trying two different crooks on my 16M's with out any success, I'm hoping that the larger bore of the King will not respond so negatively to this modification.

Now I need to find a used one as there doesn't seem to be many about.

Thanks again,


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« Reply #14 on: Mar 18, 2017, 05:00AM »

Thanks to everyone for the great feedback!, I was hoping that would be the consensus.

I'm considering a 3B+ as I need to play a horn with a wider hand slide and after trying two different crooks on my 16M's with out any success, I'm hoping that the larger bore of the King will not respond so negatively to this modification.

Now I need to find a used one as there doesn't seem to be many about.

Thanks again,


BellEnd

Maybe its the wider slide that you don't like in general?  I have a definite preference for narrower slides myself, and fortunately my small body frame supports my use of narrower slides.  FWIW, did you try changing the leadpipe at all after the modification?  If the wide slide, for example, is causing your sound to be less 'centered' as Shires puts it, then maybe a tighter leadpipe might alleviate the change in feel. Memory serving, the 16M leadpipe is pretty open and short to begin with. Might be cheaper than a new / used horn! Since you're on the other side of the pond, maybe a 10A leadpipe (I think thats the right bore size) would do well. Perhaps one in nickel too?

A few other things that might be useful...

This frankenhorn at Dillon actually plays pretty well. I remember seeing it and thinking that it was a bit over the top, even for me! http://www.dillonmusic.com/p-24308-bachkingedwards-hybrid.aspx . It has the normal King 3B outer slide on it, but I suspect with the 3B tuning slide you might find that it responds better. Of course, the shipping on such an experiment may not be worth it.

There are also a few other 525 horns on this page:

http://www.dillonmusic.com/c-1011-tenor-trombones.aspx?pagenum=6

King 607F and the Olds Ambassador that has a 510/525 bore size may also be worth considering.  But someone may well have a 3b+ sitting around too.
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Bellend

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« Reply #15 on: Mar 18, 2017, 06:16AM »

I actually have the usual neck problem with narrow slides which means I struggle to get the mouthpiece on my chops.
On top of this I have been struggling with bicep tendonitis since before Christmas and the 'cramped up' hand position I have to adopt on my Bach's is I think aggravating the condition.

The Osteopath treating me is a friend and  I've had her holding the horn so she can feel and see what's involved.

I've just recently  switched to playing an old 70's straight King 4B with a small shank adaptor and almost immediately the pain in my arm/ shoulder has decreased hence the interest in a 3B+.

It's great getting old isn't it   :/

BellEnd
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« Reply #16 on: Mar 18, 2017, 07:51AM »

BellEnd....sent you a pm.
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« Reply #17 on: Mar 18, 2017, 11:36AM »

Yikes!

Yeah it makes sense that you'd like the 4B in its stock configuration, particularly since it was designed with that crook in mind. Hopefully the 3B+ works out for you. One more thought too: You may at some point give a Shires wide crook a try too. I had a 508/525 Shires slide and I don't know which crook the put on it, but it was labelled a TW0825GLW so on paper at least it had a wide slide. It played great!
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« Reply #18 on: Mar 18, 2017, 08:53PM »

The 3B+ slide was not as wide as the Bach 36 or Conn 79H.  That was one negative when I tested out mine.

You may want to settle on an older 4B with the adapter.  May "fit" better.
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« Reply #19 on: Mar 18, 2017, 11:05PM »

Correct.  The 3B+ slide is the same width as a 3B.  A 4B slide is much wider...
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Bellend

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« Reply #20 on: Mar 19, 2017, 04:08AM »

Correct.  The 3B+ slide is the same width as a 3B.  A 4B slide is much wider...

Hi, yes I am aware of that thanks.


Most manufacturers outer slides have an I.D. of the next size up inner slide i.e. .500 inner has a .525 outer.525 inner has a .547 outer and so it goes on. It's not always exactly like that but usually something very close which makes sense as it cuts tooling costs as you  get two models from one mandrel.

As I posted earlier I have tried modifying a Bach 16M with two different styles of wider crook but neither was successful I think due to  the  jump in I.D. from the standard crook which Benn Hanson says is actually from a model 6
As the 3B+ is a 525 bore bearing in mind what I've just said above  I'm hoping making the same mod on this horn will not upset things so much, it's a gamble but worth a try.

I'm want to try a wide glide crook which has a .547 I.D. and also a 4B crook which I don't know the dimensions of yet.

Although the 4B with the small shank adapter blows better than I'd feared I don't think it is a viable long term solution for me.

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« Reply #21 on: Mar 20, 2017, 07:07PM »

Bellend, Just to give you some other ideas....maybe a Bach 42 with no f-attachment or maybe even better a vintage, if you will, a .520 bore 8.5 inch bell Reynolds Contempora or even more interesting Aregnta.  I own both and if I was leaning into jazz combo work these would be what I would think would be the best horns in my stable for this kind of sound for me!!!!
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« Reply #22 on: Mar 20, 2017, 08:55PM »

...
I'm want to try a wide glide crook which has a .547 I.D. and also a 4B crook which I don't know the dimensions of yet.

Although the 4B with the small shank adapter blows better than I'd feared I don't think it is a viable long term solution for me.

BellEnd

I am a little slow...

You are saying you want to put a 4B (or similar) crook on your 3B+ slide, right?  I think a single-radius crook, like the 4B crook, would be a good choice.  I have a beater 5B slide.  If you want, I can pull it out and check the condition of the crook.  I don't recall... but the horn, in general, had a long and active life...

Tom
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« Reply #23 on: Mar 21, 2017, 09:50AM »

I am a little slow...

You are saying you want to put a 4B (or similar) crook on your 3B+ slide, right?  I think a single-radius crook, like the 4B crook, would be a good choice.  I have a beater 5B slide.  If you want, I can pull it out and check the condition of the crook.  I don't recall... but the horn, in general, had a long and active life...

Tom


That's very kind of you but I have already sourced one.

Bought an early 80's 3B+ today so will know if it's going to work out or not with in a week or so.

Fingers crossed..........


Bellend, Just to give you some other ideas....maybe a Bach 42 with no f-attachment or maybe even better a vintage, if you will, a .520 bore 8.5 inch bell Reynolds Contempora or even more interesting Aregnta.  I own both and if I was leaning into jazz combo work these would be what I would think would be the best horns in my stable for this kind of sound for me!!!!

I already have an Argenta, an earlier .520 bore one but it's not really in playable condition as yet. Will get it sorted when funds allow. I think the leadpipe is missing any suggestions?

Thanks


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« Reply #24 on: Mar 23, 2017, 02:55AM »

Just got the 3B+ yesterday and after blowing it am a bit disappointed.

It feels quite tight and doesn't seem  to centre that well.

The mouthpiece seems to stick out of the receiver a little more than on most horns so it might be an issue with the leadpipe.

Has anyone pulled the pipe on one of these? and if so what did you replace it with.

Am still going to try the 4B crook anyway.

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« Reply #25 on: Mar 23, 2017, 03:28AM »

Although you won't know what the cause was, when they do the crook just make sure they do a full re-alignment and cleaning too. I had a 3BGSX that was actually quite a disappointing horn until I damaged the slide and had to take it into the shop.  Lo and behold it wasn't sealing very well (although that did explain its quick slide action). Once it was sealing it was a totally different instrument. Seems like I've encountered a number of Kings like that. Not sure if its tolerance of them or simply coincidence that those particular slides were damaged in such a way that it made the rest of the horn play not very well.

I've replaced the leadpipe on a King 3B before with a Shires T08. Shires is #2 is my go-to replacement for non-Shires horns because 1) they're often available from the factory or distributor that day and 2) they're the 'in-between' option and seem to work for a lot of different instruments.  If you're wanting something that blows brighter, a nickel T25 2 from Shires may be a better fit.

You could also try replacing the stock leadpipe. They're not expensive last I had the price of one checked for me.  Less than $50 for sure, less than $20 if I recall right.  If you go with something non-stock you might run into some minor complications that are out of the scope of my knowledge... I believe the 3B+ has a 2 piece leadpipe likes the smaller horns does and I'm pretty sure that changes the way it works to get them swapped, but I dont' know that for sure.  You could also have a problem with the receiver, which is also not a particualrly expensive problem but may not be the leadpipe per se.

I did a similar project where I swapped the upper slide from a 3B with a 2b+ upper and the cork barrels for Shires parts.  The end result was pretty good (though if you want to do this, don't order the parts with the brazed bell brace, its a different diameter than the King brace and causes a headache for the tech). I had the threads mounted on a 2b+ leadpipe and Shires T00 2 leadpipe; I preferred the "2" pipe from Shires.

FWIW.

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« Reply #26 on: Mar 23, 2017, 04:06AM »

Maybe a valve alignment issue?

--Andy in OKC
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« Reply #27 on: Mar 23, 2017, 06:49AM »

Thanks for the advice on the leadpipes I have a Shires 2.5 bass pipe that is great and seems to play pretty well in most horns. getting another from Conn Selmer might be the best place to start.

When I have the mod done I will try and get the leadpipe out at the same time although it's been in there coming up 40 years so may be a bit reluctant to move.



Maybe a valve alignment issue?

--Andy in OKC

This is a straight horn so no issues there but thanks for the thought.


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« Reply #28 on: Mar 23, 2017, 07:51AM »

Worst case scenario you can still source 3b+ tubes. A new inner might we'll end up better overall than extracting the pipe and using the old inner.
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« Reply #29 on: Mar 25, 2017, 04:05AM »

After a bit of swapping things about it turns out the problem with this horn is actually the bell section.

I put the King hand slide on to the bell section of my Selmer Bolero and it plays fine, put the Bolero slide on to the King and it's really duff like it is with the King slide.

This is a real pain as it is much harder to figure out what's wrong.
The bell seems to ring quite clearly so is unlikely under excessive tension and shows no sign of ever having been repaired.
I've had cleaning brushes through the gooseneck and tuning slide bows which are all clear.

I've shone a torch up inside to check for any big lumps of solder and nothing......

So I either get the bell section dismantled and reassembled or ditch it.


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« Reply #30 on: Mar 25, 2017, 05:25AM »

It's a straight bell section (no f attach) right? Get it reassembled. Worst case scenario you just discovered that you don't like the 3b+ and you have a good stress free bell section. At least that's what I'd do.
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« Reply #31 on: Mar 28, 2017, 10:30AM »

I can sell you a Benge 160 bell section in essentially NOS condition.

It's a medium bore straight horn which is essentially a re-badged King 3B+. It should hook right up to your slide, locknut threads and all.

Bell material is gold brass.

Let me know if you're interested. I've been meaning to sell it, but haven't found the time to take photos and post a listing.
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