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Question: If you want dark, with more overtones and colours possible, if everything else is equal (bore, tape, flare etc) what material for your bell would you choose?
phoshporous bronze - 0 (0%)
copper - 2 (7.4%)
red brass - 12 (44.4%)
rose brass - 2 (7.4%)
sterling silver - 4 (14.8%)
nickel silver - 0 (0%)
something else? - 7 (25.9%)
Total Voters: 27

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harrison.t.reed
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« Reply #20 on: Mar 19, 2017, 10:36AM »

Practice. Also a .547 bore. Also the bell gague and having the bead unsoldered.

A player with a dark sound concept, on a .547, with a thin, unsoldered bell will sound dark.

Bell material won't change the sound, only perhaps your playing approach.
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« Reply #21 on: Mar 19, 2017, 11:36AM »

The variable you aren't looking at is the fact that this is a valve trombone.

Not exactly. The instrument I'am looking into is bright by definition. I believe that the superbone is somewhere between the traditional valve trombone and a conventional slight trombone (the artisan said it would use voight valves, it will basically become a hybrid, a franken bone, if you wish).  I just look into alternatives to make it rounder/darker for some playing situations (classical and solo with piano) that do not happen to me to often. Maybe the question is, whether to:

1. Use a second bell
2. Use a different handslide
3. Use a different mouthpiece.
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Euphanasia

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« Reply #22 on: Mar 19, 2017, 11:43AM »

Not exactly. The instrument I'am looking into is bright by definition. I believe that the superbone is somewhere between the traditional valve trombone and a conventional slight trombone.

Not sure what you mean by "bright by definition." As for Superbones, that's not what I've heard. I've never played a Superbone, but those who play them claim that they're only bright because of their very small bore, and that they're significantly stuffier than a good valve trombone, and worlds stuffier than a slide trombone. Adding valves--even very good valves--pushes a horn toward "tubby" instead of "dark."
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« Reply #23 on: Mar 19, 2017, 12:03PM »

I have an Olds Super and an Ambassador. The Super has a "bronze" bell and nickel silver slide. It has a bright sound. The ambassador slide is yellow brass and interchangeable on the Super. Playing the bronze bell with the yellow brass slide sounds warmer (darker?) The yellow slide seems more forgiving in slotting pitches the nickel has a narrower range on slides positions and in between positions notes seem to skitter around different harmonics. This might have more to do with the mass of the slide. Heavy being stable and light flighty.
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sabutin

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« Reply #24 on: Mar 19, 2017, 12:42PM »

After several decades of experimentation, here are my choices for a "dark, rich" sound that will point up nicely when you want that point. they were developed through owning a number of great horns, opening on online store where I got to play a great deal on any number of wonderful instruments of all kinds, a blindfold test mentality that went to great lengths to make sure that I didn't know what instruments I was comparing and assembling 6 horns at Shires...all different sizes for all different uses...that satisfied my own relatively "dark, rich sound that will point up nicely when you want that point."

1-Unlaquered red brass...only if it is not too heavy, and probably better on relatively larger horns than really small ones. If it is too heavy, the point tends to disappear, and on small horns you kinda wantmore point. Elkhart Conn red brass bells from the late '20s through the post-WWII period are the sine qua non of this idea. Shires Version Elkhart bells come close....and, they stand up better to loud playing than the Conns.

2-Medium weight yellow brass. If it's still a little too bright but plays great, I have had great success with gold plating. (Smaller bores only.) Expensive but worth it.

3-Sterling silver. Maybe a little too dark at lower volumes, but when it unfurls? Watch out!!! Good older Kings and at least a few of the Sterling Silver modern 88Hs are like this, as is he only sterling silver bell from Shires that i have ever played, Earl McIntyre's bass bell. Glorious.

After that, things seem to go downhill in the dark + rich sweepstakes. At least for me. The lighter and/or harder the materials in the whole horn...every piece, not just the bell (leadpipes, outer slides, tuning slides, etc.), the less depth of resonance. The only consistent exceptions to this that I really know are classic Mt. Vernon + NY Bachs. They consistently outperform their weight class. Why? How? Damned if I know. "Genius" might be the only explanation. And even with those, the best of them that I have played were also gold plated and unlaquered.

YRMV. (Your results may vary.)

Later...

S.

P.S. I have played some rose brass hons that were also very impressive...maybe a little less that equivalent gold brass ones, but close. A Getzen .525 that put the Edwards .525s on the shelf as far as I am concerenedand a couple of Yamahas as well.

P.P.S. Also many silverplated (I assume regular yellow brass) Elkhart Conns. A little more crackle at volume, but beautiful nonetheless.


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« Reply #25 on: Mar 19, 2017, 01:23PM »

Thanks, Sam. That was pretty extensive and straight to the point. The feedback I was looking for. One more questions...

How likely is the same placement of the bracing to work well with both bells (the peppy, and a larger, maybe a red bras one or the Elkhart one)?
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sabutin

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« Reply #26 on: Mar 19, 2017, 04:48PM »

Thanks, Sam. That was pretty extensive and straight to the point. The feedback I was looking for. One more questions...

How likely is the same placement of the bracing to work well with both bells (the peppy, and a larger, maybe a red bras one or the Elkhart one)?

Above my pay grade.

Sorry...you'd need to ask someone who actually works on horn designs to answer that one. I have no iodea. It just pick 'em up and play 'em. If I can't screw something off and replace it with something else...that's what it is.

S.
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« Reply #27 on: Mar 19, 2017, 09:54PM »

3-Sterling silver. Maybe a little too dark at lower volumes, but when it unfurls? Watch out!!! Good older Kings and at least a few of the Sterling Silver modern 88Hs are like this, as is he only sterling silver bell from Shires that i have ever played, Earl McIntyre's bass bell. Glorious.

This has been my experience with sterling. I played Christian Lindberg's horn. His iteration is slightly different than current production models of the sterling 88HCL (brass rotor core). It was so dark at softer volumes that it was almost dead. At loud volumes, it held together quite well but had an unparalleled brilliance that was not strident at all.

How likely is the same placement of the bracing to work well with both bells (the peppy, and a larger, maybe a red bras one or the Elkhart one)?

In my experience, you wont have much of an issue with this as long as the bells come from horns of a similar design. I've played a number of horns that were Shires components with Mt. Vernon Bach bells, or Elkhart 88H bells. If you were trying to mount a bell from say an 30's Olds Super (7in) you may have a problem. A good craftsman should be able to make the bells interchangeable without you noticing any glaring issues. Small idiosyncrasies perhaps, but nothing wild.
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« Reply #28 on: Mar 20, 2017, 02:44PM »

Some interesting and knowledgeable replies to your question to which I would like to add me two cents worth.

 
Conn 90G upright valve trombone has an 8H bell section  , does it sound like an 8H ????,
Baritone / Euphonium,  red bell........, yellow bell ......... can you hear the difference ????? I certainly can't  Don't know

Personally, I think you are barking up the wrong tree here.  On the instrument you're building the bell material will make sod all difference to what the audience hears due to the mass of the stuff that's in front of it so just go with what 'feels' best to you.
If you want to 'colour' the sound  you'll have to do it from the sharp end..... (mouthpiece)

FWIW


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Matt K

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« Reply #29 on: Mar 20, 2017, 04:06PM »

I think the points about valve choice and bore size are spot on. Have you looked into the Schagerl? I seem to remember it being a medium bore but I may be wrong about that.


Also worth considering: I had a Shires 508/525 that was a really, really excellent slide.  gold tubes, lightweight, with nickel crook.  Worked great as a commercial horn although it didn't quite have as much bite as I wanted... but it was a franken horn and had gold tubes. So not 100% the best comparison. I'm pretty confident that if I had picked up one with yellow tubes... I may even still be playing it.  Probably the same with nickel tubes. I had it mounted to a Bach 36 bell, which worked fine but now that I've played Shires for awhile, I definitely have a preference for their 1 series bells for commercial stuff.

Point being that you may find that a medium bore offering... or a yellow/nickel 508/525 slide with an 8" red bell gives you that balance. Particularly since once you get into the 547 size you have a plethora of non-rotary options to choose from.  If I were trying to build something like this and money was no object, I would frankly probably try to put something like a nested set of Hagmann valves on it. They actually offer a 547 tubing option, so smaller than the traditional 562 bore tubing that you'd find with other medium bore offerings.  Actually, to be more precise, I'd probably do valves one and two with 547 tubing and the third (or fourth?) valve with 562 tubing. Reason being that it would still be slightly tapered and if I'm using the third valve, I'm (almost?) never using it alone, but for slightly lower notes than the other two.  The only problem that might be ran into is the 2nd valve might be too big of a distance for a crook, but I don't know that for sure.

Another advantage of the "large bore" bell section is that for your dark bell you can get a bigger bell to make sense on the instrument.  8.5" bells (and to a lesser extent 9" bells) are used in the orchestral world predominately for a reason. Further, if you decided you wanted to change the slide and the bell, you also have that option.  A 525, 525/547, or 547... or bigger... can make a huge difference.  It won't turn your sound into Steve Davis... but it certainly can take you in that direction!

So actually, if I were undertaking your project, this is what I would do. But bear in mind I am not the typical player and my sound is naturally bright, so it might not work in your particular circumstance. Anyway:

Leadpipe: 08-2.5SS, 08-2.5
Slide: Shires T08NLW
Straight gooseneck for the parts
Tuning slide: Yellow brass, seamed tuning slide
"Dark" Bell: 2RVET7 (oh, actually I already have this bell  :D)
"Bright" Bell: 1YMT7

Then, as I mentioned, I'd probably go with 3 or 4 Hagmann valves pitched in the way you'd expect for a superbone, as I mentioned above.  1-547 tubing, 2-547 tubing, 3/4-562 tubing.

If the "Bright" bell wasn't bright enough, maybe a nickel silver tuning slide in addition to that. If the "dark" setup wasn't dark enough, I'd try a 525 with large shank mouthpiece receiver. Probably a TW25LW. Or a T47LW. Actually, when I say it like that your project isn't that much different than my classical horn as it was setup for dark, which has a T47 slide, two rotaries (dependent), the seamed yellow tunign slide, and the bell I mentioned above.  If I were actively trying to pursue the aforementioned Steve Davis style, really rich dark sound----I wouldn't change a thing on my that horn. I love it to death.

Finally, the advantage of going this route is you could more-or-less assemble the horn and see if you liked the equipment before dropping the bread on making yourself a custom valve section. Beyond that, Shires stuff will be compatible with it down the road, so if you change your preferences you can get something pre-made.  The same, obviously, applies to Rath and Edwards stuff but I'm not as familiar with their setups.  I just know that They have a horn that if I wanted the same thing you did, I am 100% confident in the direction I would take.

I think I'll go practice I've rambled on enough!!
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« Reply #30 on: Mar 20, 2017, 04:22PM »

I really don't want to go above .508 and below .490 (which is why traditional rotary valves are prety much the only viable option). I know very well the Schagerl superbone (it's a .520 or .525 horn, not absolutely sure), I like the ergonomics very much, not so much the sound. It is great, just not what I want to hear. I want a brigther sound for the jazz/commercial playing I am doing. A .525 sound would be suitable for my classical playing (I do only small ensemble stuff, no Bruckner or Mahler for me so far). So, I think of dual bore of .500-.508 horn.

So, that's how I see things.

I may get an additional 11C Wedge or something like this (I play 7C for the moment), the artisan I was speaking of recently did horns in nickel silver and he says that this may eventually fit the commercial configuration.

I wonder of a 8.5 (I wonder of 8 inch would be enough to make an audible difference) more classical flare (probably a slower one) with either red brass, copper, or phosphorus bronze stuff may fit the classical/solo setting....

If I ever need a trully symphonic horn I don't hope to fit that bill with my superbone - it will need an entirely different horn, as you said, a truly large bore horn likely with a single F attachement and open wrap. This is entirely a different beast, and I am not into building one now.
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« Reply #31 on: Mar 20, 2017, 04:47PM »

BTW,

Has anyone so far used a 8.5 inch bell on a .508 inch horn? What were the results?
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« Reply #32 on: Mar 20, 2017, 05:13PM »

Sterling Silver, the Mel Torme of trombone bells. I mean to get one eventually. I'm just suck on whether I want a Silversonic 2b, 3b, or 4b.
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« Reply #33 on: Mar 20, 2017, 05:21PM »

BTW,

Has anyone so far used a 8.5 inch bell on a .508 inch horn? What were the results?

BTW, I meant 8" for the bright bell. 1YLWT78

As far as the Schagerl, it might be cheaper (and perhaps better overall) for you to get it and have the bell and slide swapped for something brighter.   At the end of the day, the only difference between that and your custom horn would be the custom valve section anyway. You also have the benefit that the current setup sounds like it would suit you for the classical stuff you play. You might be surprised at how bright a nickel 08/25 slide can get.  Especially with a tighter leadpipe. Even, say, a Shires 1.  A nickel leadpipe with an all nickel slide is going to be bright.  Depending on the receiver, you may be able to get away with a 500/508 or a 508/508 on the Schagerl.  Even if they won't sell you a slide with those specs. I don't know enough to comment in that capacity, but I do know that I know of someone with a 2b+ slide on a Shires large bore section and he loves it.  Its unusual, but not unheard of. And the receiver is probably closer to one you'd find on a small bore horn than a large bore. But that's pure speculation on my part.

As far as the 8.5" bell on a 508 slide, I'm close: I did occasionally use my 8.5" bells on my 508/525GLW slide. At the time I had a Bach 42 bell as well. I owned by it at the same time as my 2RVET7.  It was certainly a passable classical horn in that configuration.  Especially for first.  Do I prefer my 547 slide I have now? Yes. But with the right mouthpiece it worked.  I actually did Festival Overture and the Star Wars suite on it.  As a pops horn? All. The. Way. Especially for that concert because it was basically a variety show where I played lead bone in a big band section and in a rock horn section.   We switched sets so quickly that I didn't want to bring more than one horn on stage. I just swapped mouthpieces.  The only thing that would have made it better, as I mentioned in the last post, perhaps would have been yellow outers.  I used the 2RVET7 for those shows, which is an 8.5" bell. Great chameleon horn.
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« Reply #34 on: Mar 20, 2017, 05:35PM »

How do you put a small bore slide on a large bore horns? isn't it too much of difference? Excuse me if I look ignorant or stupid. Schagerl has a version of that superbone with a detachable flare. It is very unlikely that they provide something that it is not on the catalogue. I will see what price is on offer for the custom version (I just discovered one maker in Europe that may build it for an acceptable price). As for the Schagerl, it is somewhere around 5500 Euros for raw brass. The american artisan will do it for the same price, but I will have to pay around 22% in VAT on that price. I will soon find out what price will ask the bavarian artisan that I just discovered in my search who has a very good reputation and quite reasonable pricing.

BTW, I haven't ruled out completely Schagerl from the equation, just looking around what can I get for my $$$ and whether it will be more suitable for my needs.
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« Reply #35 on: Mar 20, 2017, 06:27PM »

The forum member who had it done may chime in. I don't have the picture anymore. It took his tech about 30 minutes of time apparently. Basically you cut the tenon off and solder the appropriate tenon on.  Shires sells those parts, or at least they did as of a year or so ago when I bought one. He says the intonation is fine on it. The intonation was fine on my 508/525 too.

Now this is where semantics plays a role. What makes a large bore a large bore? For large bore (and bass) Bach, Shires, and Edwards - all have similar enough tenons/slide receivers that they can basically be used interchangeably. Most Yamaha and Conn large bore/bass slides are of a different size. They won't fit.  I had a small bore Shires slide that fit in a Conn 88 receiver though. So there's no set in stone external diameter for the slide receiver/tenon. (Note: I don't have calipers so I've never measured the internal bore, I'm sure there would have been a difference internally between my small bore Shires tenon a Conn 88 tenon.) To further complicate this: Edwards and Shires use the same bell sections for their medium and large bore models.

If the Schagerl is a fully medium bore instrument, meaning it wasn't designed to share a 547 slide sometimes, it probably has a smaller receiver and it probably wouldn't be a big deal to put a small slide on there.  Especially since the 508/525 is a standard Shires slide size and works fine on larger bell sections.

I'd forgotten about the VAT, that does make it a lot more expensive. Do you have the same rate from the UK? It might be worth checking Rath to see if they could do the whole project or do something similar to what i suggested with Shires. An R1, 2, or 3 may suit your needs. I know of at least one person who has a small bore horn (I think R2) with a Hagmann, so they've done kind of similar projects.
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« Reply #36 on: Mar 20, 2017, 07:16PM »

Please look into an older('58 - 65) Reynolds Argenta.  It seems to me that it may have all of the qualities in a trombone that you seem to be looking for in my opinion.
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« Reply #37 on: Mar 21, 2017, 01:58AM »

If the Schagerl is a fully medium bore instrument, meaning it wasn't designed to share a 547 slide sometimes, it probably has a smaller receiver and it probably wouldn't be a big deal to put a small slide on there. 

Right on the money. It has a small mp receiver.

I checked with Mick, and his price almost gave me a heart attack. No hard feelings, I am sure he would build an amazing horn, but his price was way above my means.

The more I read some comments the more I get the impression I may have more success to have to distinct sonic "personalities" with changes over the mouthpiece and the handslide. I saw on youtube someone playing a nickel silver R2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vx1BiZZT9w and that's aproximately the sound I would like to have in my jazz/commercial setting.

Of course, the bell section may change a lot. I think that a will have to do some experimentation before really settling down for a particular design of that thing.
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« Reply #38 on: Mar 21, 2017, 08:08PM »

Then you have the fact that, as in my case, My over-all tone quality has gotten darker as I`ve gotten older and my sound concept has changed too
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« Reply #39 on: Mar 22, 2017, 02:18AM »

On trumpet (which is my main instrument and I don't even think to change that) I am rather a dark player. Maybe because till my 30s I was thinking that I am gonna spent my life playing in a symphonic or opera orchestra and was constantly trying to get this big and rather dark orchestral trumpet sound. But work led me elsewhere, as often happens in life. So playing bright is work for me.

As a trombone player, I am too much of a novice to say yet what kind of a player I am. It seems I'm getting generally a good sound of the big pipe  :D but I still searching for my own voice and all the bores, leadpipes, handslides, bells, modular systems, makers, brands (both vintage and new) still look a bit like jungle to me. I already kind of got a first impression of what I want to sound like, but I am not quite there yet.
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