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The Trombone ForumCreation and PerformanceTrombonists(Moderator: zemry) Jazz trombonists that play on larger horns
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danhaak86
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« on: Mar 31, 2017, 11:31AM »

Hey All

Just curious, who are some of the jazz cats that play on a larger bore horn, and is it straight or with an F attachment.  I am listening to some Mike Dease right now, seems like he might have a larger horn, which he gets an incredible sound and range out of.  I was wondering what you all thought about this topic.  What did/does Slide or Curtis play on?
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Exzaclee

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« Reply #1 on: Mar 31, 2017, 01:14PM »

Mike Dease, David Gibson, Slide Hampton, Curtis Fuller, Phil Wilson and Robin Eubanks all play/played large horns for most of their stuff.

As far as I know, Robin Eubanks is the only one of those who uses a trigger most of the time.

Mike Dease is on a Rath large bore, as is David Gibson. DG used to play a 4B I think. Slide used to play a straight bass bone (.562) and I've heard Curtis was on an Olds Opera ( I had one when I went through my trying to sound like Curtis phase.) Phil Wilson I think was on that beast of a yamaha with the .551 bore for a bit, and I think Robin uses a Yamaha of some flavor.

I used to play straight large bores, but ditched them in favor of more standard equipment for the sake of my section mates. Now I just prefer small for the weight.

There are other guys as well, it's not as uncommon as it used to be. Small bore is still the "standard" but it's not at all uncommon to find guys playing bigger equipment. JJ's sound paradigm made a bunch of guys go that route, as did Slide and Curtis's outsized influence. Yes, JJ played a small bore most of his career, but his sound was huge.

A lot of Salsa guys have been playing large horns recently as well... I saw a video a while back of a section of straight Bach 42s, and I've heard of guys using the .525 and 547 bore yamahas. Not for me, that stuff is enough of a workout and I like the narrow slide, but for the guys that make it work, the sound is awesome.
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TimS
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« Reply #2 on: Mar 31, 2017, 03:41PM »

A number of people in NYC are playing .525 and .547 horns.  In addition to those already mentioned, Nick Finzer plays a 3B+ these days, and Nick Vayenas has been playing a 4B lately.  Both sound great.
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« Reply #3 on: Mar 31, 2017, 06:19PM »

Add J Roseman, Steve Davis, Andre Hayward, and Steve Turre to the list.m
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sabutin

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« Reply #4 on: Apr 01, 2017, 04:55AM »

I often play on a .525 bore/8.5" bell trigger Shires w/a larger than 6.5AL m'pce if I know I'm not going to need to play much lead. I have it set up to be fairly dark and it's just too much work to brighten it up sufficiently to cut through most NYC large ensembles. I love the way it plays and sounds. The extra strength in the lower registers...plus being able to avoid much 6th/7th position playing down there...gives me almost another whole octave to use as a soloist compared to smaller horns/m'pces. I especially like it in 3 or 4 horn jazz groups. The sound it gets in unison w/a good tenor player is enormous!!!

The earliest prominent jazz trombonist that I know to play larger equipment was Jimmy Knepper on his Bach 42 bell/36 slide/6.5AL m'pce. A glorious sound!!! After him? Curtis Fuller on an Olds Opera, I believe. Or was it a big Holton? I forget. Then Slide Hampton, then all of the people mentioned above.

S.
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« Reply #5 on: Apr 03, 2017, 10:42PM »

Wanna venture that large-bore jazz is largely an East-Coast thing.

As someone who moved to LA from Philly/NYC, many moons ago...I miss it!
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samacull
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« Reply #6 on: Apr 04, 2017, 12:41PM »

A King 4b with 6.5ish mouthpiece works well as a big jazz horn
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samacull
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« Reply #7 on: Apr 04, 2017, 02:03PM »

Jean-Nicolas Trottier, who's a pretty big name in Canada, plays on a Bach 42BO.
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« Reply #8 on: Apr 04, 2017, 07:29PM »

I do. About 50% of the time. Lots of people do.
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JacobGarchik

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« Reply #9 on: Apr 05, 2017, 05:43AM »

Common also in Europe. and the west coast. Brazil. Raul de Souza.
If you include 525, common pretty much everywhere. There are New Orleans guys playing larger horns, plus a lot of the trombone shout band guys too.
Fred Wesley. Ray Anderson. Glenn Ferris. Connie Bauer. Jimmy Bosch. Julian Priester.
Pretty much everybody who doesn't do only 1st trombone parts in a big band!
When does the exception become the rule?
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Pre59

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« Reply #10 on: Apr 05, 2017, 03:43PM »

Yes, there's a convergence going on. Brass players are using larger horns and m/p's, and having had a similar education and being fearful about putting their heads above the parapet are tending to sound more and more like each other. And this is at a time when when there are fewer work opportunities than ever..

IMO, find your own voice but also be mindful or where you're playing, whichever bore size you own.
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JacobGarchik

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« Reply #11 on: Apr 05, 2017, 07:04PM »

I don't think those people sound more and more like each other.
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Arrowhead99
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« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2017, 05:43PM »

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think Phil Wilson or Slide Hampton played on large bore horns for jazz. I think for years P.W. played a Conn 6H. S.H. I think played on a Getzen "The Dude" at one time, and in every jazz album it looks like he's holding a small bore horn. Anyone?
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Exzaclee

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« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2017, 11:32PM »

Slide played a pretty big horn. Ask David Gibson or Michael Dease about it. I'm pretty sure the horn I saw him with last time I saw him was large enough to smuggle dolphins in. That doesn't preclude him having played smaller equipment, like I know he did at one point in his career when he was younger, as evidenced by photographs. Check out this photo - here he's clearly playing a canon: https://news.allaboutjazz.com/jazz-musician-of-the-day-slide-hampton__8897.php

Phil Wilson played a yamaha 841 custom. That doesn't mean that he played one for his entire career. But he did play one - I think he was actually endorsing yamaha at that point. The 841 had a .551 bore.
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Geezerhorn

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« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2017, 05:23AM »

Lol. What horns are these, held by young Mister Slide Hampton



...Geezer
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Arrowhead99
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« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2017, 06:45AM »

Phil Wilson for years played a Conn 6H, and appeared on advertisements for that instrument
https://www.terapeak.com/worth/1976-phil-wilson-on-the-conn-6h-trombone-vintage-print-ad/232139179097/
With Woody Herman he appears to have played a small bore horn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyJy1d_SAzY
his use of playing on a large bore horn is probably mostly due to being involved in education and teaching.

Slide Hampton, appears to have played a small bore all throughout his younger career
https://www.amazon.com/Sister-Salvation-Somethin-Sanctified-Birdland/dp/B006NYQKW4/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1494164416&sr=1-4&keywords=slide+hampton
https://www.amazon.com/Exodus-Slide-Hampton/dp/B003Y5WY6G/ref=sr_1_17?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1494165394&sr=1-17&keywords=slide+hampton

Slide's use of playing on large bore is connected to his teaching at major universities in the late 70's.

The connection seems to be higher education= large bore. Free lance/Jazz musician= small bore.
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Geezerhorn

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« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2017, 07:12AM »

Phil Wilson for years played a Conn 6H, and appeared on advertisements for that instrument
https://www.terapeak.com/worth/1976-phil-wilson-on-the-conn-6h-trombone-vintage-print-ad/232139179097/
With Woody Herman he appears to have played a small bore horn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyJy1d_SAzY
his use of playing on a large bore horn is probably mostly due to being involved in education and teaching.

Slide Hampton, appears to have played a small bore all throughout his younger career
https://www.amazon.com/Sister-Salvation-Somethin-Sanctified-Birdland/dp/B006NYQKW4/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1494164416&sr=1-4&keywords=slide+hampton
https://www.amazon.com/Exodus-Slide-Hampton/dp/B003Y5WY6G/ref=sr_1_17?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1494165394&sr=1-17&keywords=slide+hampton

Slide's use of playing on large bore is connected to his teaching at major universities in the late 70's.

The connection seems to be higher education= large bore. Free lance/Jazz musician= small bore.


Look at the size of those chops! I'm envious! I gotta wonder what size and config mpc he was using at that time. He certainly never lacked for either high range or technique!

Story goes that he played left-handed b/c that's how his first trombone was handed to him. Lol

That's a very interesting connection you have made!

...Geezer
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sabutin

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« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2017, 07:19AM »


The connection seems to be higher education= large bore. Free lance/Jazz musician= small bore.


That's not very far off, Arrowhead.

A couple of comments:

Very few high-level universities and conservatories have a dedicated small bore player on their faculty anymore, and very few large bore-playing faculty seem to understand the acoustic, stylistic and endurance advantages of smaller equipment in the workaday world. Students are "encouraged"...in Emory Remington's case, absolutely required...to play a large bore tenor if they are going to have success in their academic career, and the result is that many college-level large jazz ensembles...and even worse, high school ensembles...have a trombone section that sounds like a euphonium section and/or a herd of elephants in the classic jazz repertoire. They are using a large hammer for work that would be better done with a sharp knife.

But...as almost always, the academic scene is way behind the working scene.

About the "Freelance/Jazz musician = small bore" thing? I think it is rapidly becoming Freelance/Jazz musician = using the right horn for the job." It certainly is in NYC, and I suspect that the same thing is true in many other thriving musical centers. Everbody and his brother seems to have at least 3 instruments...a small tenor, a larger tenor w/a trigger and a bass, and almost everybody plays those three horns pretty well. They may prefer one over the others, but work is work. In fact, more and more players are playing tuba and euphonium as well. This complicates things for a player somewhat...more practice time and a better understanding of how air and embouchure interact are both needed...but it also opens up new avenues both in the way people play the horn and in what kinds of jobs are available for them.

Evolution in action...

S.



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« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2017, 07:22AM »

Look at the size of those chops! I'm envious! I gotta wonder what size and config mpc he was using at that time. He certainly never lacked for either high range or technique!

Story goes that he played left-handed b/c that's how his first trombone was handed to him. Lol

That's a very interesting connection you have made!

...Geezer

You also need to remember that in his prime, Slide was a fierce practicer. Marathon practice sessions, every day that he was home.

Marathon!!!

S.
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« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2017, 07:56AM »

You also need to remember that in his prime, Slide was a fierce practicer. Marathon practice sessions, every day that he was home.

Marathon!!!

S.

THAT is very inspiring, Sam. I don't know how you came to know this, but I believe you.

Funny thing is, even growing up 3 miles away from his birthplace - I never heard of him until I picked up an album. He was the best-kept local secret. There should be a "Slide Hampton Day" in Jeannette, Pennsylvania!

I hope he is okay. I think maybe he is retired now. Last time I heard him, he was playing jazz on a large-bore horn and sounding utterly fabulous. It can be done. But I believe it takes a Slide Hampton or the like to pull it off!

...Geezer
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