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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Trump Launches Tomahawks Against Assad
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Baron von Bone
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« on: Apr 06, 2017, 07:23PM »

Not doing this got Obama a lot of bipartisan criticism. Russia was apparently informed ahead of time (just not much ahead of time of course).
 
This green light then retaliate pattern reminds me of Kuwait/Gulf War I though. Trump didn't green light chemical attacks (at least as far as he knew, I'm sure), but neither dish Bush I specifically green light slant drilling, as far as I recall.
« Last Edit: Apr 09, 2017, 09:11PM by slide advantage » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: Apr 06, 2017, 08:28PM »

Fake News!!! Confused

But, seriously ... this is serious.
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« Reply #2 on: Apr 06, 2017, 10:34PM »

Surprisingly to me, Trump's action has the support of the Australian government. As I mentioned in the other topic when I first commented about the action, my fear is retaliatory action from Syria and Russia, especially as we have our own forces backing America with its actions against IS in Syria, albeit they are based in Korea. Our PM made it clear the US and ourselves are not at war with the Assad regime but I do not see how flattening one of his airfields can be seen as anything else.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-07/syria-strikes-why-did-donald-trump-target-that-airbase/8425658
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« Reply #3 on: Apr 07, 2017, 02:40AM »

BBC reported this morning on radio 4 that most of the worlds leaders ibncluding Putin where informed yesterday that the strike was to take place.

The airfield targeted appears to have held a lot of the countries chemical weapons stores.
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« Reply #4 on: Apr 07, 2017, 02:43AM »

Appears is a key word. Irak also "appeared" to have chemical weapons. I wonder what is hiding behind the word "appears"

Probably petrol prices or another form of greed...
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« Reply #5 on: Apr 07, 2017, 03:03AM »

It remains to be seen whether this is anything much more than a "make the haters feel good" gesture, but I am greatly relived the only apparent casualties were Syrian military personnel. Probably the most effective deflection from the scandals dogging him he has yet come up with.
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« Reply #6 on: Apr 07, 2017, 03:32AM »

Appears is a key word. Irak also "appeared" to have chemical weapons. I wonder what is hiding behind the word "appears"

Probably petrol prices or another form of greed...


The recent use this week of chemical weapons during an airstrike in Syria, indicate that it is more than'appears to have!

or did the news reports pass you by?
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« Reply #7 on: Apr 07, 2017, 03:40AM »

The difference between you and me, Vegas is, that I am able and read both American and Russian reports....
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« Reply #8 on: Apr 07, 2017, 03:44AM »

The difference between you and me, Vegas is, that I am able and read both American and Russian reports....


Now that is a big assumption!

Yes the Russiians are stating that it is the isis fighters who used the chlorine gas, will be interesting to see if the russians start to distance themselves from Assad now?
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« Reply #9 on: Apr 07, 2017, 05:32AM »

Well, if the Russians are telling the truth, and the chemical attack was pulled off by ISIS, and not Assad, then we should have no fear of a counter attack from Russia or Assad. Right?

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« Reply #10 on: Apr 07, 2017, 05:55AM »

Don't believe action by Assad is really a concern. It's the third party players here such as Russia, Iran, us, etc... that make the situation more volatile.

WWI for example was a simple incident where the external political ties turned it into a major war with numerous countries.

Doubt it will go over well internationally if we attempt to escalate the violence while simultaneously renigging on promises to take people fleeing from said violence.
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« Reply #11 on: Apr 07, 2017, 07:09AM »

I don't have an opinion on what would work.  It's obviously an intractable problem.

I would note that each missile costs more than my salary over my entire career.  Maybe I should ask for a raise. 

I know that chemical attacks are beyond the pale, but the death toll is between 200 and 2000.  The artillery death toll is approaching 470,000?  Is one that much worse than the other?  If so, why? 
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« Reply #12 on: Apr 07, 2017, 07:40AM »

I believe death by chemical weapon is FAR worse than death by explosive. Dont get me wrong here,death by anything IMO is cruel and unfair but it is still a matter of maintaing our humanity.If I had to choose which one would take my life, I would pick artillery over chemicals anyday of the week.

Just my 2 cents
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« Reply #13 on: Apr 07, 2017, 07:50AM »

I believe death by chemical weapon is FAR worse than death by explosive. Dont get me wrong here,death by anything IMO is cruel and unfair but it is still a matter of maintaing our humanity.If I had to choose which one would take my life, I would pick artillery over chemicals anyday of the week.

Just my 2 cents

Chemical weapons were widely used in WWI, and then agreed not to be used again. The reasons were pretty simple: they were mass impact weapons that could not be readily controlled, and hit civilians and friendly forces as readily as the intended enemy forces.

In this case, Assad intended to hit civilian forces and mass impact is generally his intent - as it has been throughout this effort. Normally it's done with artillery or air strikes for visual sake, but still... intended to inflict damage with little regard.

In what way is artillery against civilians "maintaining our humanity" where chemical weapons are not?


Can't say I have any answers on a solution either. This is a civil war, and a war of internal issues. Don't know we really have a place in those. Only remediation we have a moral obligation to would be to help those that ran away or found their life in the country destroyed with no option but to leave.

And there... we seem to obsessed by their religion, with too little regard for our own, and wish to make more enemies by attacking and slandering the refugees rather than providing aid and assistance.
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« Reply #14 on: Apr 07, 2017, 08:07AM »

Well in regards to which was weapon was worse chemicals or guns, I believed that chemicals were the obvious answer. You are right, there is nothing humane about the death and destruction of civilian lives and properties. No matter how its executed.

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« Reply #15 on: Apr 09, 2017, 09:43AM »

So Trump lets his Russian pals (who in turn likely told their Syrian clients) that he was coming. Which he said he would never do. A few days later, the Syrians and Russians are flying air strikes out of that base.

Meanwhile, a lot of Americans are rallying around the flag (support the military) and Trump.

The guy is a con man and he's getting away with another ruse.

Russia is laughing. (What did they think when Don called and told them to expect a middle strike?) Assad probably lost a couple of trucks. It's back to business a day or two later.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-media-loved-trumps-show-of-military-might-are-we-really-doing-this-again/2017/04/07/01348256-1ba2-11e7-9887-1a5314b56a08_story.html?utm_term=.031ff8fa4a86&wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1



https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/warplanes-return-to-syrian-town-devastated-by-chemical-attack/2017/04/08/38a5d8cc-1bdc-11e7-8598-9a99da559f9e_story.html?utm_term=.a22d616b7437&wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1


https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/09/liberals-donald-trump-syria-missile-strikes
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« Reply #16 on: Apr 09, 2017, 10:23AM »


WWI for example was a simple incident where the external political ties turned it into a major war with numerous countries.


I'll note that the diplomatic-entanglements interpretation has lost ground outside of the English-speaking world and historians have moved toward the view that events were carefully orchestrated and exploited by Germany with the aim of becoming THE European superpower.
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« Reply #17 on: Apr 09, 2017, 10:30AM »

Well, if the Russians are telling the truth, and the chemical attack was pulled off by ISIS, and not Assad, then we should have no fear of a counter attack from Russia or Assad. Right?



I don't get this. If they counterattack it will be because of our Tomahawk missiles, and it seems that they're more, not less, likely to retaliate if the chem weapons were a bad rap.
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« Reply #18 on: Apr 09, 2017, 10:32AM »


The recent use this week of chemical weapons during an airstrike in Syria, indicate that it is more than'appears to have!

or did the news reports pass you by?

No one is claiming that the chemical weapons weren't released. The counterclaim is that Assad's forces were using conventional weapons and hit a rebel stock of chem weapons.
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« Reply #19 on: Apr 09, 2017, 10:50AM »

I have mixed feelings about this. The retaliation (assuming it was justified) was reasonably well calibrated and designed to degrade the very airstrip allegedly used in the chem attacks.

But what good does it do? The very week of the attacks, the administration stated a policy of basically agnosticism on regime change, with the emphasis on ISIS. That's unlikely to work, because Russia is actively siding with Assad and attacking the 'moderate' rebels who would be our most likely allies. But it was the stated policy.

This is after years of Assad slaughtering civilians. Now Trump sees something on TV, and his emotional reaction to it causes a change of policy that causes him to fire cruise missiles into a foreign country. That type of action ought to be pursuant to some sort of plan or policy, not on the emotional whim of one person.

I was struck by the crudity, clumsiness, repetition, and self-reference of Trump's statements before and after the attacks. It's as though he had nothing to say and was just trying to imitate the sound of a somber war president, but not pulling it off. I saw Marco Rubio on TV this morning, giving nuanced, responsive, detailed and knowledgeable answers to Stephanopoulos's questions, completely off the cuff and fluently. He outlined areas of agreement and disagreement with the administration. I never thought of Rubio as brilliant or anything, but it was surely depressing that you can't possibly imagine our commander-in-chief speaking with similar knowledge, honesty, and coherence.

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