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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Trump Launches Tomahawks Against Assad
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Baron von Bone
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« on: Apr 06, 2017, 07:23PM »

Not doing this got Obama a lot of bipartisan criticism. Russia was apparently informed ahead of time (just not much ahead of time of course).
 
This green light then retaliate pattern reminds me of Kuwait/Gulf War I though. Trump didn't green light chemical attacks (at least as far as he knew, I'm sure), but neither dish Bush I specifically green light slant drilling, as far as I recall.
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« Reply #1 on: Apr 06, 2017, 08:28PM »

Fake News!!! Confused

But, seriously ... this is serious.
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« Reply #2 on: Apr 06, 2017, 10:34PM »

Surprisingly to me, Trump's action has the support of the Australian government. As I mentioned in the other topic when I first commented about the action, my fear is retaliatory action from Syria and Russia, especially as we have our own forces backing America with its actions against IS in Syria, albeit they are based in Korea. Our PM made it clear the US and ourselves are not at war with the Assad regime but I do not see how flattening one of his airfields can be seen as anything else.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-07/syria-strikes-why-did-donald-trump-target-that-airbase/8425658
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« Reply #3 on: Apr 07, 2017, 02:40AM »

BBC reported this morning on radio 4 that most of the worlds leaders ibncluding Putin where informed yesterday that the strike was to take place.

The airfield targeted appears to have held a lot of the countries chemical weapons stores.
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« Reply #4 on: Apr 07, 2017, 02:43AM »

Appears is a key word. Irak also "appeared" to have chemical weapons. I wonder what is hiding behind the word "appears"

Probably petrol prices or another form of greed...
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« Reply #5 on: Apr 07, 2017, 03:03AM »

It remains to be seen whether this is anything much more than a "make the haters feel good" gesture, but I am greatly relived the only apparent casualties were Syrian military personnel. Probably the most effective deflection from the scandals dogging him he has yet come up with.
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« Reply #6 on: Apr 07, 2017, 03:32AM »

Appears is a key word. Irak also "appeared" to have chemical weapons. I wonder what is hiding behind the word "appears"

Probably petrol prices or another form of greed...


The recent use this week of chemical weapons during an airstrike in Syria, indicate that it is more than'appears to have!

or did the news reports pass you by?
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« Reply #7 on: Apr 07, 2017, 03:40AM »

The difference between you and me, Vegas is, that I am able and read both American and Russian reports....
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« Reply #8 on: Apr 07, 2017, 03:44AM »

The difference between you and me, Vegas is, that I am able and read both American and Russian reports....


Now that is a big assumption!

Yes the Russiians are stating that it is the isis fighters who used the chlorine gas, will be interesting to see if the russians start to distance themselves from Assad now?
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« Reply #9 on: Apr 07, 2017, 05:32AM »

Well, if the Russians are telling the truth, and the chemical attack was pulled off by ISIS, and not Assad, then we should have no fear of a counter attack from Russia or Assad. Right?

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« Reply #10 on: Apr 07, 2017, 05:55AM »

Don't believe action by Assad is really a concern. It's the third party players here such as Russia, Iran, us, etc... that make the situation more volatile.

WWI for example was a simple incident where the external political ties turned it into a major war with numerous countries.

Doubt it will go over well internationally if we attempt to escalate the violence while simultaneously renigging on promises to take people fleeing from said violence.
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« Reply #11 on: Apr 07, 2017, 07:09AM »

I don't have an opinion on what would work.  It's obviously an intractable problem.

I would note that each missile costs more than my salary over my entire career.  Maybe I should ask for a raise. 

I know that chemical attacks are beyond the pale, but the death toll is between 200 and 2000.  The artillery death toll is approaching 470,000?  Is one that much worse than the other?  If so, why? 
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« Reply #12 on: Apr 07, 2017, 07:40AM »

I believe death by chemical weapon is FAR worse than death by explosive. Dont get me wrong here,death by anything IMO is cruel and unfair but it is still a matter of maintaing our humanity.If I had to choose which one would take my life, I would pick artillery over chemicals anyday of the week.

Just my 2 cents
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« Reply #13 on: Apr 07, 2017, 07:50AM »

I believe death by chemical weapon is FAR worse than death by explosive. Dont get me wrong here,death by anything IMO is cruel and unfair but it is still a matter of maintaing our humanity.If I had to choose which one would take my life, I would pick artillery over chemicals anyday of the week.

Just my 2 cents

Chemical weapons were widely used in WWI, and then agreed not to be used again. The reasons were pretty simple: they were mass impact weapons that could not be readily controlled, and hit civilians and friendly forces as readily as the intended enemy forces.

In this case, Assad intended to hit civilian forces and mass impact is generally his intent - as it has been throughout this effort. Normally it's done with artillery or air strikes for visual sake, but still... intended to inflict damage with little regard.

In what way is artillery against civilians "maintaining our humanity" where chemical weapons are not?


Can't say I have any answers on a solution either. This is a civil war, and a war of internal issues. Don't know we really have a place in those. Only remediation we have a moral obligation to would be to help those that ran away or found their life in the country destroyed with no option but to leave.

And there... we seem to obsessed by their religion, with too little regard for our own, and wish to make more enemies by attacking and slandering the refugees rather than providing aid and assistance.
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« Reply #14 on: Apr 07, 2017, 08:07AM »

Well in regards to which was weapon was worse chemicals or guns, I believed that chemicals were the obvious answer. You are right, there is nothing humane about the death and destruction of civilian lives and properties. No matter how its executed.

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« Reply #15 on: Apr 09, 2017, 09:43AM »

So Trump lets his Russian pals (who in turn likely told their Syrian clients) that he was coming. Which he said he would never do. A few days later, the Syrians and Russians are flying air strikes out of that base.

Meanwhile, a lot of Americans are rallying around the flag (support the military) and Trump.

The guy is a con man and he's getting away with another ruse.

Russia is laughing. (What did they think when Don called and told them to expect a middle strike?) Assad probably lost a couple of trucks. It's back to business a day or two later.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-media-loved-trumps-show-of-military-might-are-we-really-doing-this-again/2017/04/07/01348256-1ba2-11e7-9887-1a5314b56a08_story.html?utm_term=.031ff8fa4a86&wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1



https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/warplanes-return-to-syrian-town-devastated-by-chemical-attack/2017/04/08/38a5d8cc-1bdc-11e7-8598-9a99da559f9e_story.html?utm_term=.a22d616b7437&wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1


https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/09/liberals-donald-trump-syria-missile-strikes
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« Reply #16 on: Apr 09, 2017, 10:23AM »


WWI for example was a simple incident where the external political ties turned it into a major war with numerous countries.


I'll note that the diplomatic-entanglements interpretation has lost ground outside of the English-speaking world and historians have moved toward the view that events were carefully orchestrated and exploited by Germany with the aim of becoming THE European superpower.
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« Reply #17 on: Apr 09, 2017, 10:30AM »

Well, if the Russians are telling the truth, and the chemical attack was pulled off by ISIS, and not Assad, then we should have no fear of a counter attack from Russia or Assad. Right?



I don't get this. If they counterattack it will be because of our Tomahawk missiles, and it seems that they're more, not less, likely to retaliate if the chem weapons were a bad rap.
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« Reply #18 on: Apr 09, 2017, 10:32AM »


The recent use this week of chemical weapons during an airstrike in Syria, indicate that it is more than'appears to have!

or did the news reports pass you by?

No one is claiming that the chemical weapons weren't released. The counterclaim is that Assad's forces were using conventional weapons and hit a rebel stock of chem weapons.
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« Reply #19 on: Apr 09, 2017, 10:50AM »

I have mixed feelings about this. The retaliation (assuming it was justified) was reasonably well calibrated and designed to degrade the very airstrip allegedly used in the chem attacks.

But what good does it do? The very week of the attacks, the administration stated a policy of basically agnosticism on regime change, with the emphasis on ISIS. That's unlikely to work, because Russia is actively siding with Assad and attacking the 'moderate' rebels who would be our most likely allies. But it was the stated policy.

This is after years of Assad slaughtering civilians. Now Trump sees something on TV, and his emotional reaction to it causes a change of policy that causes him to fire cruise missiles into a foreign country. That type of action ought to be pursuant to some sort of plan or policy, not on the emotional whim of one person.

I was struck by the crudity, clumsiness, repetition, and self-reference of Trump's statements before and after the attacks. It's as though he had nothing to say and was just trying to imitate the sound of a somber war president, but not pulling it off. I saw Marco Rubio on TV this morning, giving nuanced, responsive, detailed and knowledgeable answers to Stephanopoulos's questions, completely off the cuff and fluently. He outlined areas of agreement and disagreement with the administration. I never thought of Rubio as brilliant or anything, but it was surely depressing that you can't possibly imagine our commander-in-chief speaking with similar knowledge, honesty, and coherence.

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« Reply #20 on: Apr 09, 2017, 11:09AM »

I don't get this. If they counterattack it will be because of our Tomahawk missiles, and it seems that they're more, not less, likely to retaliate if the chem weapons were a bad rap.

It's another clear demonstration of selective vapidity.
 
The Alt Logic is that if they're not guilty they won't have any reason to retaliate ... it makes no sense at all, which is obvious to most, but for the selectively vapid you actually have to connect all of the dots, not matter how obvious. So again, the Alt Logic, with all of the dots connected ... if they're not guilty and we attacked them anyway, does that mean they won't have any reason to retaliate? Obviously, as you said, that gives them all the more reason, not the other way around, but the obvious reality doesn't affirm their beliefs about the matter, so it doesn't meet the only actual standard they go by (though it seems "standard" isn't really the right word--I guess it is though, because it's what they're really using as such, so even if it's not remotely rational or honest or responsible or functional, it still works for them as a standard because it's affirmational ... maybe pseudo-standard is the way to go with that one).
 
Those choosing to be vapid about the matter just see a gap here--a mismatch. So that means an idea can be inserted. They have to get vapid in order to fit what they want into the gap, so while most of us aren't going there, they are, and it will actually work for them, and that's the real problem we're dealing with. The failure of an idea to match up at all with reality isn't a hindrance to them in terms of believing it (whatever that really means for them) if it's an idea that affirms them--their personal investments.
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« Reply #21 on: Apr 09, 2017, 11:19AM »

I have mixed feelings about this. The retaliation (assuming it was justified) was reasonably well calibrated and designed to degrade the very airstrip allegedly used in the chem attacks.
 
But what good does it do? The very week of the attacks, the administration stated a policy of basically agnosticism on regime change, with the emphasis on ISIS. That's unlikely to work, because Russia is actively siding with Assad and attacking the 'moderate' rebels who would be our most likely allies. But it was the stated policy.
 
This is after years of Assad slaughtering civilians. Now Trump sees something on TV, and his emotional reaction to it causes a change of policy that causes him to fire cruise missiles into a foreign country. That type of action ought to be pursuant to some sort of plan or policy, not on the emotional whim of one person.
 
I was struck by the crudity, clumsiness, repetition, and self-reference of Trump's statements before and after the attacks. It's as though he had nothing to say and was just trying to imitate the sound of a somber war president, but not pulling it off. I saw Marco Rubio on TV this morning, giving nuanced, responsive, detailed and knowledgeable answers to Stephanopoulos's questions, completely off the cuff and fluently. He outlined areas of agreement and disagreement with the administran. I never thought of Rubio as brilliant or anything, but it was surely depressing that you can't possibly imagine our commander-in-chief speaking with similar knowledge, honesty, and coherence.

Trump has no real standards either. He has how he feels, which is ultimately the same as the selectively vapid as described above--one of the main reasons they love him so much. So ... we have a psychological two-year-old as Commander-in-Chief. His policies hold only as long as his emotions stay the same. He starts with more or less arbitrary decisions on policy, so when reality imposes upon his reflections about them (such as they are), then his emotions will dictate what policies are actually applied, regardless of what he "figured out" about the matter ahead of time. If he were grounded in rational thinking about reality that might be okay, but he's not very connected to the real world, so it makes him chaotic and dangerous and flighty. Even if he gets something "right" it's the blind squirrel finding a nut schtick.
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« Reply #22 on: Apr 09, 2017, 11:48AM »

You know, he actually did start out with a reasonably consistent foreign policy view, even though it was a bit crude and ill-informed. The biggest beef against Hillary, from both the left and the libertarian right and alt-right, was that she was interventionist. Trump has consistently railed against unnecessary foreign interventionism, both as a candidate and as a private citizen.

I never viewed that as being particularly heartfelt. Like his punchlines about lowering insurance deductibles and defending SS, Medicare, and Medicaid, the 'America First' routine struck me as saying what people wanted to hear. But it was one of the more consistent leitmotifs of his campaign. He's revealed that he was more interested in the political advantage of appearing 'strong and decisive' than in any strategy, principle, or public purpose. Those pictures made me sad, so we're launching missiles isn't something a president says.

He's found some surprising support for this from unexpected quarters (and some unsurprising support, from guys like McCain and Graham, who tend to support military action). But his supporters on the alt-right and anti-establishment conservative branches are furious at him. I sort of admire them for sticking to their guns instead of blindly following him.
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« Reply #23 on: Apr 09, 2017, 12:12PM »

Time to strike up the band.

Gimme an F...
Gimme a I...
Gimme a S...
Gimme a H...

What's that spell?
What's that spell?
What's that spell?
What's that spell?
What's that spell?

Yeah, c'mon on all you big strong men
Uncle Sam needs your help again
He's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in Vietnam
So put down your books and pick up a gun
We're gonna have a whole lot of fun

And it's 1, 2, 3, what're we fighting for?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn
Next stop is vietnam
And it's 5, 6, 7, open up the pearly gates
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! We're all gonna die

Well c'mon generals, let's move fast
Your big chance has come at last
Gotta go out and get those Reds
The only good Commie is one who's dead
And you know that peace can only be won
When we've blown 'em all to kingdom come

Chorus

Well c'mon on Wall Street
Don't be slow
Why this is war a-go-go
There's plenty good money to be made
By supplin' the Army with the tools of the trade
Just hope and pray that if we drop the bomb
They drop it on-the Vietcong
Chorus

Well c'mon mothers throughout this land
Pack your boys off to Vietnam
C'mon pops, don't hesitate
Send 'em off before it's too late
Be the first one on your block to have your boy come home in a box

And it's 1, 2, 3, what're we fighting for?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn.
...
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« Reply #24 on: Apr 09, 2017, 02:18PM »

I suppose at $1 million apiece, 59 cruise missiles is war on the cheap since losing even one bomber in such an attack would be several times that cost, aside from all the complications of a pilot either being killed or captured.

The Russians say only 23 hit their targets. If that's true, why is that number so low?

Do some actually get shot down?  Do they get confused and wander off course?

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« Reply #25 on: Apr 09, 2017, 04:00PM »

I'd discount the Russian statement a little; they would tend to exaggerate in their favor.

I hope there is some surveillance from a spy plane showing what was hit; and possibly a few live pictures from the missiles as they approached target (remember the ones from Iraq?).

Since a Cruise is a relatively slow weapon, it could be stopped with a Russian equivalent of the Patriot system (and I'm sure they have one).
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« Reply #26 on: Apr 09, 2017, 04:11PM »

So what do you think Trump has in mind ordering a United States Navy strike group to move towards the western Pacific Ocean near the Korean Peninsula? If it is just a show of force because of US growing concerns about North Korea's advancing weapons program, I think it is a crazy move that will cause Korea to do the same thing. Especially as Kim Jong-un and Bashar al-Assad have reportedly exchanged pledges of friendship and cooperation.

I am not so sure I fear Kim Jong-un's finger on the button any more than I do Trump's. They are both crazies.
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« Reply #27 on: Apr 09, 2017, 06:46PM »


Here's a map. At 50,000 feet the horizon is 274 miles away but you have to get a lot closer than the horizon to get good spy pics of something. i dunno...

But look at what a mess Syria is.  At least four powers vying for it.  The territory of the Islamic State looks more like a gerrymandered congressional district.

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« Reply #28 on: Apr 09, 2017, 09:00PM »

The hypocrisy of the Republican party on this issue is laughable.

Obama tried to get Congressional approval to intervene in Syria. He was turned down. And now Trump orders intervention (bypassing the Congress altogether) and the Republican leadership is all gung ho in support of his actions.

And Trump? He consistently took the stance for non-intervention while Obama was in office. And now he flip flops. Why? He is trying to divert attention from the distractions of the investigation into the relationship between his campaign staff and the Russians.

What is almost as troubling as Trump's actions is the fact that so many of his supporters are okay with everything he does. Suckers.
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« Reply #29 on: Apr 10, 2017, 01:18AM »

I don't want to hurt you feelings and patriotism, but here it is(confirming my doubts):

http://www.neonnettle.com/news/2047-wikileaks-documents-prove-syria-chemical-attack-orchestrated-by-us
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« Reply #30 on: Apr 10, 2017, 01:24AM »

I don't want to hurt you feelings and patriotism, but here it is(confirming my doubts):

http://www.neonnettle.com/news/2047-wikileaks-documents-prove-syria-chemical-attack-orchestrated-by-us

I'm not sure how that article would confirm your doubts, or anything else. Perhaps you could copy and paste the persuasive evidence from the text for me.
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« Reply #31 on: Apr 10, 2017, 02:26AM »

I will just...



In the meantime I'll stand by my opinion that US warlords are just trying to replicate the Irak script...
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« Reply #32 on: Apr 10, 2017, 06:01AM »

In the meantime I'll stand by my opinion that US warlords are just trying to replicate the Irak script...
I wish trump showed that type of foresight and planning... Even the coordination to get the UN behind us, per bad intel report, is likely beyond his administration. His justification for this attack was pretty empty, and his where we go from here even moreso.
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« Reply #33 on: Apr 10, 2017, 06:14AM »

I wish trump showed that type of foresight and planning... Even the coordination to get the UN behind us, per bad intel report, is likely beyond his administration. His justification for this attack was pretty empty, and his where we go from here even moreso.

We all do. I was never a Trump or Clinton supporter, but hoped that Trump (Even though I am not american) would do as he promised regarding US foreign policies. Unfortunately that didn't last long.
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« Reply #34 on: Apr 10, 2017, 06:31AM »

God only knows what the real facts are, but I think it is a classic case of tail wags dog
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« Reply #35 on: Apr 10, 2017, 07:25AM »

Anyone know what the Reichstagg fire was?
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« Reply #36 on: Apr 10, 2017, 07:26AM »

I don't want to hurt you feelings and patriotism, but here it is(confirming my doubts):

http://www.neonnettle.com/news/2047-wikileaks-documents-prove-syria-chemical-attack-orchestrated-by-us


Other absolutely reliable story on neonettle...Madonna Tried Witchcraft To Make Trump Lose Election

(Spoiler: deceptively edited quotes are used to create that story)



and Buckingham Palace Admits That Queen Elizabeth 'Is Not Human' Statement released that she's a Reptilian Shapeshifter




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« Reply #37 on: Apr 10, 2017, 07:30AM »

Anyone know what the Reichstagg fire was?

I know...a Bulgarian politic was accused then..but what's the connection? I don't get it. Yes the neonwhatever site is far from genuine, I reckon. But that doesn't change my opinion on the subject and the regrets about Trumpet volatile "position". He is not more than a front face puppet. Pitiful.
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« Reply #38 on: Apr 10, 2017, 07:44AM »

I can't take any website seriously when it links stories alleging pedophile rings in Washington.

 Yeah, RIGHT.
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« Reply #39 on: Apr 10, 2017, 08:51AM »

I can't take any website seriously when it links stories alleging pedophile rings in Washington.

 Yeah, RIGHT.

But somebody did.  Remember the pizza parlor shooting? Confused Don't know
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« Reply #40 on: Apr 10, 2017, 08:54AM »

But somebody did.  Remember the pizza parlor shooting? Confused Don't know

Hence the basis of fake news really...

The stories are designed to confirm, reinforce, or feed off of already conceived notions of the reader.

Yes the neonwhatever site is far from genuine, I reckon. But that doesn't change my opinion on the subject and the regrets about Trumpet volatile "position". He is not more than a fron face puppet. Pitiful.

ie. It may be fake, but given my opinion, I could see it happening.
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« Reply #41 on: Apr 10, 2017, 09:01AM »

Fake news is a real problem, but that so because of the decline of real investigating journalism (at least in my part of the world). The other issue is all the fake stories our governments like us to believe. Like the Irak strikes, we may not get even a glimpse on the true, before it is too late.

My issue with Mr Trump's and all other similar US strike that it was against all UN regulations, on a unproved so far claim, hasty and leaving a bad taste - like he was fearing that the true reason of this strike may be uncovered before they can do it.

There is no innocent parties in this conflict - Russia, Assad, US, Turkey etc - they all have their own interest in it.

So, I cannot accept the simple view of making the US the big justice giver and all the rest being the naughty kids, needing a slap from his parent...that's so arrogant.
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« Reply #42 on: Apr 10, 2017, 09:24AM »

...I cannot accept the simple view of making the US the big justice giver and all the rest being the naughty kids, needing a slap from his parent...that's so arrogant.

agreed 100%
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« Reply #43 on: Apr 10, 2017, 09:43AM »

He is not more than a fron face puppet. Pitiful.

I recommend using his own term for condescension ... sad.
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« Reply #44 on: Apr 10, 2017, 10:17AM »

Fake news is a real problem, but that so because of the decline of real investigating journalism (at least in my part of the world). The other issue is all the fake stories our governments like us to believe. Like the Irak strikes, we may not get even a glimpse on the true, before it is too late.
We suffer from a bit of a different issue in the us, specifically the marketization of news. News isn't just news as it used to be... that was considered a public service, and generally incurred a loss to the company to produce it. Now, news is sold, and actually a profit center. In order to sell, the news it targeted to different audiences, and shaped the way they want to see it. The right wing news sources were heavily skewed against Obama per the past 8 years, and already readily blurred the line between lie and truth... so the fake news found fertile ground.

Real news is what it is regardless of your opinion.

My issue with Mr Trump's and all other similar US strike that it was against all UN regulations, on a unproved so far claim, hasty and leaving a bad taste - like he was fearing that the true reason of this strike may be uncovered before they can do it.
The second, purely opinion part aside, we know they have previously had chemical weapons in the area and have used them. To "prove" again, is not a short or readily available option given the politics involved. Kinda like the passenger plane shot down over the ukraine... we know it was hit from rebel held territory, using a russian weapon, likely with russian military assistance either in normal operation or at least in training... But russia disputed it, and has power on councils to make the investigation basically moot and never "proven".

Per whether the claims were valid, https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/06/world/middleeast/chemical-attack-syria.html?_r=0
Turkey confirmed it was Sarin before the attack.
Quote
The poison used in the deadly chemical bomb attack in a rebel-held part of northern Syria this week was the banned nerve agent sarin, the Turkish Health Ministry said in a statement on Thursday.

The statement from Turkey, where many of the stricken Syrians were taken after the assault on Tuesday, was the most specific about the cause.

“According to the results of preliminary tests,” the statement said, “patients were exposed to chemical material (Sarin).”


At the same time, use of chemical weapons violates international law, though the enforcement of said law would be crippled because of russia's vote. Much in the same way that although Israel has committed numerous war crimes and atrocities through the years, it has not received international punishment because of US backing and protection. 

So it's against international law while also enforcing international law at the same time.
There is no innocent parties in this conflict - Russia, Assad, US, Turkey etc - they all have their own interest in it.

So, I cannot accept the simple view of making the US the big justice giver and all the rest being the naughty kids, needing a slap from his parent...that's so arrogant.
Trump would have agreed with you... last week. Though in truth, a shot across the bow for breaking multiple international laws... well, if that's arrogant, so is the concept of international law itself. That's nothing more than a joint imposition of multiple countries will/morals/ethics over another country or countries.

Trump's action is long overdue, even per international law. The biggest difficulty I find with it, is what is the purpose? Trump got emotional watching the news, so he unleashed his military on another country? Is there a strategy or end-game goal?
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« Reply #45 on: Apr 10, 2017, 10:37AM »

I don't get it. Yes the neonwhatever site is far from genuine, I reckon. But that doesn't change my opinion on the subject and the regrets about Trumpet volatile "position". He is not more than a front face puppet. Pitiful.

The point is that you put the goofy web site out as proof, or at least as evidence, and it wasn't very persuasive. You're being a little more forthright now, and admitting that the lack of evidence doesn't change your opinion, which is essentially just what you're inclined to believe.

I don't necessarily buy the official line either, but I'm not going to latch onto some wacko counter-theory because someone said it on the internet.
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« Reply #46 on: Apr 10, 2017, 10:42AM »

I prefer to use my free time on the horn, than investigting stuff, that I have no power to change anyway  :/ I am free to have my own opinion about, the future will only tell whether I was wrong or write to doubt the official US story.

Using that website was a mistake, I am not afraid to admit that.
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« Reply #47 on: Apr 10, 2017, 10:46AM »

The point is that you put the goofy web site out as proof, or at least as evidence, and it wasn't very persuasive. You're being a little more forthright now, and admitting that the lack of evidence doesn't change your opinion, which is essentially just what you're inclined to believe.
 
I don't necessarily buy the official line either, but I'm not going to latch onto some wacko counter-theory because someone said it on the internet.

Even more importantly:
 ... or because it's satisfying or affirming.
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« Reply #48 on: Apr 10, 2017, 11:00AM »

Bonenick, please don't assume that your opinion isn't welcome, or that any challenge to the 'official American narrative' is unwelcome. Most of the Americans here are skeptical of the official line. Still, the counter-narrative has to make at least a little sense.

The breakdown of this requires some understanding of US politics, and of Trump.

Trump does not have a 'statesman' mode--it's all about politics, and all about his image. He was a relentless foe of Syrian intervention, including after the previous gas attacks. But he doesn't like being put on the spot--he wants to create the image of being able to 'handle' things that are screwed up by Obama. That's why he blamed Obama for not intervening earlier, even though he himself opposed such intervention.

So now he has to do something to save face. Part of the problem is that foreign intervention is very unpopular with his alt-right base. So he fires the missiles (carefully avoiding the runways) and says, "Look, I did something, and Obama didn't." It has the secondary benefit of providing separation between him and Putin.

Did Americans gas those people? Of course not. That would be more underhanded and reprehensible by far than any of the chicanery leading up to the Iraq War, and would involve enough people to execute that someone would have blown the whistle. Either Assad gassed those people, or as some are saying they bombed a rebel-held Sarin facility.

It would not surprise me if the response was somewhat coordinated between Putin and Trump, including Putin's crocodile tears afterward. We do know that Trump tipped off the enemy through Putin, ahead of the strikes. But it's absurd to guess that the US released the chemical weapons. Trump is getting political backlash from his political base over the missile strike, so the political outcome is not an unalloyed benefit. As a start-to-finish operation, a plan to gas Syrians would carry enormous risk and at best mixed political results. Trump is not trying to get involved overseas to begin with.

My guess is that the gas was released, by accident or design, and Trump tried to make the best of it politically, with no regard to any military strategy or benefit to the American people.
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« Reply #49 on: Apr 10, 2017, 11:15AM »

There are handful of videos going around suggesting that all that histeria about people who supposedly suffered was created by handful of fake sufferers and dead people who are moving, speaking and raising from the death  :/

So anything in this chemical attack seems phoney to me.
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« Reply #50 on: Apr 10, 2017, 11:20AM »

I am free to have my own opinion about, the future will only tell whether I was wrong or write to doubt the official US story.

Using that website was a mistake, I am not afraid to admit that.

Sure.

The key of contention is what is opinion and what is best fact we know?

Per Turkey, the attack was sarin gas. That's not the official US story, that's the report coming from the place were these folks were taken to for treatment.

Now, was trump arrogant? Sure, that's opinion and it's pretty free and open. Opinions vary even more than the people that hold them.
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« Reply #51 on: Apr 10, 2017, 11:32AM »

There are handful of videos going around suggesting that all that histeria about people who supposedly suffered was created by handful of fake sufferers and dead people who are moving, speaking and raising from the death  :/

So anything in this chemical attack seems phoney to me.

You are aware that Syria's major backing country, Russia, has a long documented history of large campaigns to spread false information and attempt to cast doubt on real information? In numerous countries and for numerous causes?

Shoot, that was a big part of how russia just expanded it's own country lines.
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« Reply #52 on: Apr 10, 2017, 11:35AM »

So it is US. We still remember the excuses for Irak and Serbia conflicts...do you?
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« Reply #53 on: Apr 10, 2017, 11:44AM »

So it is US. We still remember the excuses for Irak and Serbia conflicts...do you?
What information about the chemical attack comes from the US?

Sarin is per the health minister of Turkey. The rest of the attack is not in dispute at all as far as I can tell. And well, this country has used and admitted using chemical agents in the past. They also don't dispute that sarin was in the area, just tried to say somehow the rebels obtained it.

The only thing Trump seemed to add to the situation was 59 missiles.
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« Reply #54 on: Apr 10, 2017, 12:12PM »

So it is US. We still remember the excuses for Irak and Serbia conflicts...do you?

Serbia/Bosnia? My recollection is that Serbian aggression, including ethnic cleansing, was pretty well documented  (I recall a Canadian soldier was chained to a chain link gate as a human shield/hostage, for example), and that's why Milosevic was tried for war crimes.

"The only thing Trump seemed to add to the situation was 59 missiles." Trump is in way over his head.
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« Reply #55 on: Apr 10, 2017, 01:22PM »

BoneNick, I understand that you believe some Americans' utter credulity toward the 'official line' makes them suckers. In reality, I don't think many people on this forum fall into that category, but still.

What you haven't explained is how your gullibility for lightly-sourced or poorly-sourced and obviously fake propaganda videos is any sort of improvement over that. You're not more discerning by virtue of rejecting the official line in favor of something even less plausible.

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« Reply #56 on: Apr 10, 2017, 01:51PM »

At this point is difficult to be objectively certain whether these videos are fake or not. I surely wouldn't call any person sucker. That's below the intelectual and emotional level I was brought up to.

But don't forget that where I live, region bombed by the US army are my neighbours. Memory is still vivid. Last week an arrogant US jet pilot was bitten up by a serbian after he boasted in a pub how he bombed these "losers", the serbian.

The Gaddafi US blooper was not that long time ago.

I don't pretend to be objective. But my reaction is surely logical and understandable. I know that many americans would agree, at least in part with me.

I have many american friends, I don't take them for losers or suckers. But I am still surprised how polarized they can be, by becoming partisans of Trump, Clinton or anyone else in Washington...

In my country politician is synonym of criminal and lobyist. I don't think that it is any different in the white house or the Pentagon. So I cannot put my consent to any of them or their actions.

Who is more responsible for the situation in Syria? US, Russia, Turkey or any of the other parties? Difficult to say. Was bombing that airbase an appropriate and timely action? Most probably not. Did the credibility of US because of that improved? Not at all. I am still a bit puzzled of what was the purpose of firing those misiles...Did it fulfill it's purpose? most probably not. But surely it has raised the tension in the region and most porbably will make the situation worse.

These are MY thoughts and my opinion. I don't feel the need to justify it, neither I feel the need someone to approve it. It is just what it is. An opinion.
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« Reply #57 on: Apr 10, 2017, 02:03PM »

Who is more responsible for the situation in Syria? US, Russia, Turkey or any of the other parties? Difficult to say. Was bombing that airbase an appropriate and timely action? Most probably not. Did the credibility of US because of that improved? Not at all. I am still a bit puzzled of what was the purpose of firing those misiles...Did it fulfill it's purpose? most probably not. But surely it has raised the tension in the region and most porbably will make the situation worse.

At its core, syria's civil war is exactly that... an internal war of the country's people against it's leadership, in which the syrian people fight to oust a leader who between him and his father have held power over the country for over 35 years.

Who is more responsible for the situation? A leader that would rather use chemical weapons and barrel bombs to indiscriminately kill his own people rather than step aside, and who has self-admittedly done so in the past?

How does the list of possibly responsible comprise the US, Russia, and Turkey... but not the man at the core of this conflict to start with?

This incident did ultimately start with Assad cracking down on a few youths for anti-establishment graffiti, some of which were then killed in detention, and riots sprang up were more and more were killed. Assad responded with a state of emergency to try to force the rioting down, and they have been going at each other since.


But hey... it's all the US' fault. That surely isn't pretending to be objective in the least.
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« Reply #58 on: Apr 10, 2017, 02:13PM »

Bonenick, I understand your antipathy toward American foreign policy. Certainly we haven't always covered ourselves in glory in your region and elsewhere. I don't agree with you on the Serbian situation, because the Serbian aggression was plain, severe, and unnecessary, and primarily served the political ambitions of a handful of people at the expense of most Serbs as well as of their victims. The evidence of that didn't come entirely or even mostly from Americans.

I agree that the Tomahawk missile launch was largely pointless, except as a political exercise. To the extent there was any strategic value it would have been in chastening and restraining Assad, and I doubt that's going to work. Another side of this, which BvB briefly alluded to in the original post, is that in the days leading up to the attacks, Trump's administration made several statements implying that regime change was no longer a priority and that the focus would be shifted to ISIS. I believe that emboldened Assad. As BvB suggested, it's somewhat analogous to our ambiguous statements leading up to the Kuwait invasion by Iraq--not quite a 'green light', but something like it.

Don't assume that Americans are blindly defending the Trump administration on this, just because we're Americans. I doubt that many people here voted for Trump. Speaking only for myself, my disagreement with you on this is predicated not on 'sticking up for our side' but on the fact that what you're accepting as an alternative explanation is far less plausible than what you're rejecting.

I do understand your point of view here, but I personally try hard not to have any point of view or predisposition that makes me likely to fall for something false.
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« Reply #59 on: Apr 10, 2017, 02:47PM »


How does the list of possibly responsible comprise the US, Russia, and Turkey... but not the man at the core of this conflict to start with?

There's the crux of it. You can be skeptical of American intentions without making an invalid and indefensible dogma out of it. The responsibility for the bombs in Aleppo and elsewhere lies first with the man who's launching them.

The reason the previous admin didn't wade into this is that there really aren't 'good guys' to side with. The supposedly non-Islamist, moderate, pro-democracy resistance actually comprises a continuum from secular, pro-democracy anti-Assad forces to people who are just this side of al Qaeda and ISIS. The purely pro-democracy protesters might be the weakest element, once Assad is gone and the opposition breaks up into factions, some of which might ultimately form coalitions with extremist groups.

When I see al-Nusra and others commit atrocities in this war, I remind myself that these might have been our allies if we'd joined the battle

In addition, you have the mirror version of Iraq, with a minority-controlled dictatorship in charge. The Alawite minority would be impossible to protect in the event of Assad's fall, and they know it. If Assad himself had responded differently at the beginning, showing a willingness to cede personal political power to protect the safety and property of his clan, it could have possibly turned out differently.
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« Reply #60 on: Apr 10, 2017, 08:53PM »

AFAIAC, Assad and Trump are two peas in a pod.  The only difference is there are still some fairly effective safeguards in the US.  Safeguards I bet Trump would rather have out of the way.  He proved that by changing the rules for affirming a supreme court candidate.

By 2020 the US could be a very different place than it is now.  You may not like it.
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« Reply #61 on: Apr 10, 2017, 08:54PM »


By 2020 the US could be a very different place than it is now.  You may not like it.

It is already to that point for me
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« Reply #62 on: Apr 10, 2017, 09:40PM »

Assad and Trump = 2 peas in a pod?

A considerable overstatement.

-----

We had some interest in going down to Palm Springs or maybe to Portland to take in an away game. I thought of going to the ITF. But we don't really want to go to the US these days. We've booked a trip to Mexico instead.
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« Reply #63 on: Apr 10, 2017, 10:08PM »

Assad and Trump = 2 peas in a pod?

A considerable overstatement.
Not really, at least in my reckoning.  Do you think if Trump had the freedom Assad has he would be as contained as he is now?  His outlandish rhetoric would not just be outlandish rhetoric.
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« Reply #64 on: Apr 11, 2017, 02:32AM »

AFAIAC, Assad and Trump are two peas in a pod.  The only difference is there are still some fairly effective safeguards in the US.  Safeguards I bet Trump would rather have out of the way.  He proved that by changing the rules for affirming a supreme court candidate.

Trump did not change the rules. McConnell did.

McConnell has been leading his party in the senate in a hyper partisan method since well before Trump. As soon as Obama was in and McConnell was in a position of authority, it became his personal seated mission to oppose even bipartisan legislation on a partisan manner to make it seem partisan. He then led a senate that filibustered more than every other senate combined. He the led his party in unprecedented steps to steal a supreme court pick, and likely politicize the view of the court for decades to come. And the moment the other party wanted to filibuster and he was in power? Kill it.

On the other hand, the GOP has push for such a hyper-partisan path for two decades now, and they are feeling the result of it with an utter inability to draft and push through legislation that even their own party wants. And Trump... has only signed executive orders to "push" his agenda at this point... something presidents resort to when they have nothing else. There own actions to push their agenda are also what is crippling it.

The GOP in our county has been on a slash and burn, stay in power mode... yes.

But that's a bit different than killing your own populous because they oppose you.
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« Reply #65 on: Apr 11, 2017, 02:57AM »

And Trump... has only signed executive orders to "push" his agenda at this point... something presidents resort to when they have nothing else.

If this is true (and most probably it is) that very..."sad".
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« Reply #66 on: Apr 11, 2017, 08:04AM »

If this is true (and most probably it is) that very..."sad".

Yes, at the moment our country is, indeed, VERY, sad.
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« Reply #67 on: Apr 11, 2017, 08:22AM »

Yes, at the moment our country is, indeed, VERY, sad.
No, the country is pretty great.  Some parts are sad.  Do not conflate Trump = USA anymore than Putin = Russia.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #68 on: Apr 11, 2017, 08:24AM »

No, the country is pretty great.  Some parts are sad.  Do not conflate Trump = USA anymore than Putin = Russia.

Cheers,
Andy

I never did...though some of his supporters are pretty pitiful, but that can be said about any politician anywhere  :/
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« Reply #69 on: Apr 12, 2017, 08:03AM »

From the Independent:

Did Assad use chemical weapons in the recent attack? Or was this an al-Qaeda weapons store which the Syrians blew up (which wouldn’t actually let Syria off the hook, since the aftermath of such an attack would obviously kill civilians)? The problem is that we know Assad’s opponents have chemical weapons – some captured, I suspect, from Syrian government stocks before Assad handed them over to the West for destruction on Putin’s orders. Other chemicals passed across the northern frontier of Syria from Turkey (Nato member and a “friend” of the West, before Erdogan went bonkers). And if the Syrian military did use chemicals “on their own people” why should they do so when they are now winning their war with Isis and when such use would clearly embarrass Putin?

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« Reply #70 on: Apr 12, 2017, 09:22AM »

And if the Syrian military did use chemicals “on their own people” why should they do so when they are now winning their war with Isis and when such use would clearly embarrass Putin?
Why has Trump made erratic and contradictory statements, or said things like he will go after members of his own party in congress when he clearly has not ability or desire to?

Some people behave very logically and consistently. Some do not.

Why did Assad barrel bomb his own people and gas them before?

The question really isn't why they did what they did. But if they actually did it.
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« Reply #71 on: Apr 12, 2017, 09:54AM »

I should point out that Serin gas is a two component weapon and if it was set off by bombing a depot the two components would have to be in close proximity and somehow mixed by the action of the explosion.  The result would be a rather tepid gas attack.  This had to have been an intentional attack with armed weapons.
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« Reply #72 on: Apr 12, 2017, 10:03AM »

In addition it is not likely that much of the component chemicals would have survived the high temperatures of the explosions.
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« Reply #73 on: Apr 12, 2017, 12:29PM »

Well, did he launch the missiles at Iraq or Syria?  Eh, doesn't matter.  At least the cake was good. /sarcasm

Seriously, when we aren't getting quotes from actual fascists, now he's adding Marie Antoinette?

I will never be able to fathom how people thought this was the 'lesser of two evils.'

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #74 on: Apr 12, 2017, 03:57PM »

Why has Trump made erratic and contradictory statements, or said things like he will go after members of his own party in congress when he clearly has not ability or desire to?

Some people behave very logically and consistently. Some do not.

Why did Assad barrel bomb his own people and gas them before?

The question really isn't why they did what they did. But if they actually did it.

A point not lost on the Russians in the recent talks Tillerson had in Russia with Lavrov and afterwards Putin.

Lavrov greeted Mr Tillerson with icy remarks, denouncing the missile strike on Syria as illegal and accusing Washington of behaving unpredictably. He then said, "I won't hide the fact that we have a lot of questions, taking into account the extremely ambiguous and sometimes contradictory ideas which have been expressed in Washington across the whole spectrum of bilateral and multilateral affairs."

Lavrov's deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov was even more undiplomatic. He commented to the Russian news agency, "In general, primitiveness and loutishness are very characteristic of the current rhetoric coming out of Washington. We'll hope that this doesn't become the substance of American policy."

I do not hold much stock with Russian behaviour in international affairs but at least they are more or less predictable. I still would like to see such predictability from Trump. And I would like to feel there is some kind of logical and sensible master plan so that we can all get on board! At least Trump today on TV said that he realised the relationship with Russia was at an all-time low. I hope he realised it is his fault.

More important, I want to see this tension with North Korea resolved. Sending the US warships up there is the most serious threat to world peace in the nuclear age that I have ever seen!

   
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« Reply #75 on: Apr 12, 2017, 04:12PM »

We're going to miss the Soviet Union.
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« Reply #76 on: Apr 12, 2017, 04:36PM »

One of the oddest things for me, is that Trump basically committed an act of war. The only reason we aren't fully engaged at this point, is that the country he attacked is too weak to really counter. And for all of it, Trump can't even really say a simple why he did it that is consistent day to day and somewhat thoughtful.

On the other hand, Russia' involvement is interesting. They have a long history of aggressive posturing almost to the point of war to get other countries to seed to them what they wanted so that war won't break out. Especially in their efforts to rebuild the old soviet union. But really... they aren't as strong as they pretend, and for all of their aggressive posturing, they rarely engage in serious battles with a somewhat strong enemy.

Wonder how this russia and trump thing will work out. Russia like to posture, but get trump irritated and he wants to hit back... and has already shown he lacks the ability to think first. They very well may find trump calling their bluff.

So... with trump already stating that of course russia knew about the chemical attacks before they happened, as they were close allies to assad... will this escalate? or will russia back down? Because I don't think trump has the strength of character to back down himself.
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« Reply #77 on: Apr 12, 2017, 05:18PM »

Isn't Putin just making Russia great again?

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« Reply #78 on: Apr 13, 2017, 05:21AM »

Isn't Putin just making Russia great again?
Through a much more calculated and intelligent strategy, yup.

He wants russia to be the big dog on the scene again. Hence why they're in syria to even begin with.
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« Reply #79 on: Apr 13, 2017, 10:23AM »

Russia has had an interest in the Middle East for years, back to the Great Game.

And,  to its credit, it may have realized as bad as Assad might be, he is better than the alternatives. See Iraq.

Whereas the US was and is as naive as ever. See Iraq.
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« Reply #80 on: Apr 13, 2017, 10:37AM »

Russia has had an interest in the Middle East for years, back to the Great Game.
Is there anyone NOT interested in the middle east?

At the same time, one of the interesting things here was russia's attempted diplomacy in the area. They were essentially trying to take the lead, end the most contentious battles in syria, and then bring in nearby regional players to workout a path towards "peace". The latter was going on when Syria dropped the bomb, so to speak.

The end, if it all worked out, would be that russia would look like the big country to come in, deal with problems smaller countries couldn't, build the coalition, and set forth long term solutions. Ie- the role the us used to be expected to play, and russia wants to take over or at least take much larger part in.

Whereas the US is as naive as ever.
Maybe? Part of me just wonders if those in power simply like being in a fight too much. Too many rewards, too many hoorays, and we really haven't faced a domestic consequence in too long to really shy from it.

Our military is becoming more and more insulated, where children of veterans join the new ranks more than outsiders, and no one else is really in a position to see the negatives while we expect the military to.
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« Reply #81 on: Apr 13, 2017, 01:35PM »

I watched this live on the morning after and I think this guy is on the money........ see what you think


http://yournewswire.com/truth-bomb-bbc-british-ambassador/

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« Reply #82 on: Apr 13, 2017, 01:53PM »

As someone who bought in to the US line about weapons of mass distraction in Iraq, I am inclined to be a little bit more sceptical this time around.
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« Reply #83 on: Apr 13, 2017, 04:37PM »

And you can't even dig a hole to get away from it all these days:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-14/mother-of-all-bombs-test-video/8444636

A somewhat improved strategy against the proper enemy, Islamic State militants:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-14/us-drops-gbu-43-mother-of-all-bombs-in-afghanistan-pentagon-says/8444628
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