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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Trump Launches Tomahawks Against Assad
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #20 on: Apr 09, 2017, 11:09AM »

I don't get this. If they counterattack it will be because of our Tomahawk missiles, and it seems that they're more, not less, likely to retaliate if the chem weapons were a bad rap.

It's another clear demonstration of selective vapidity.
 
The Alt Logic is that if they're not guilty they won't have any reason to retaliate ... it makes no sense at all, which is obvious to most, but for the selectively vapid you actually have to connect all of the dots, not matter how obvious. So again, the Alt Logic, with all of the dots connected ... if they're not guilty and we attacked them anyway, does that mean they won't have any reason to retaliate? Obviously, as you said, that gives them all the more reason, not the other way around, but the obvious reality doesn't affirm their beliefs about the matter, so it doesn't meet the only actual standard they go by (though it seems "standard" isn't really the right word--I guess it is though, because it's what they're really using as such, so even if it's not remotely rational or honest or responsible or functional, it still works for them as a standard because it's affirmational ... maybe pseudo-standard is the way to go with that one).
 
Those choosing to be vapid about the matter just see a gap here--a mismatch. So that means an idea can be inserted. They have to get vapid in order to fit what they want into the gap, so while most of us aren't going there, they are, and it will actually work for them, and that's the real problem we're dealing with. The failure of an idea to match up at all with reality isn't a hindrance to them in terms of believing it (whatever that really means for them) if it's an idea that affirms them--their personal investments.
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #21 on: Apr 09, 2017, 11:19AM »

I have mixed feelings about this. The retaliation (assuming it was justified) was reasonably well calibrated and designed to degrade the very airstrip allegedly used in the chem attacks.
 
But what good does it do? The very week of the attacks, the administration stated a policy of basically agnosticism on regime change, with the emphasis on ISIS. That's unlikely to work, because Russia is actively siding with Assad and attacking the 'moderate' rebels who would be our most likely allies. But it was the stated policy.
 
This is after years of Assad slaughtering civilians. Now Trump sees something on TV, and his emotional reaction to it causes a change of policy that causes him to fire cruise missiles into a foreign country. That type of action ought to be pursuant to some sort of plan or policy, not on the emotional whim of one person.
 
I was struck by the crudity, clumsiness, repetition, and self-reference of Trump's statements before and after the attacks. It's as though he had nothing to say and was just trying to imitate the sound of a somber war president, but not pulling it off. I saw Marco Rubio on TV this morning, giving nuanced, responsive, detailed and knowledgeable answers to Stephanopoulos's questions, completely off the cuff and fluently. He outlined areas of agreement and disagreement with the administran. I never thought of Rubio as brilliant or anything, but it was surely depressing that you can't possibly imagine our commander-in-chief speaking with similar knowledge, honesty, and coherence.

Trump has no real standards either. He has how he feels, which is ultimately the same as the selectively vapid as described above--one of the main reasons they love him so much. So ... we have a psychological two-year-old as Commander-in-Chief. His policies hold only as long as his emotions stay the same. He starts with more or less arbitrary decisions on policy, so when reality imposes upon his reflections about them (such as they are), then his emotions will dictate what policies are actually applied, regardless of what he "figured out" about the matter ahead of time. If he were grounded in rational thinking about reality that might be okay, but he's not very connected to the real world, so it makes him chaotic and dangerous and flighty. Even if he gets something "right" it's the blind squirrel finding a nut schtick.
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« Reply #22 on: Apr 09, 2017, 11:48AM »

You know, he actually did start out with a reasonably consistent foreign policy view, even though it was a bit crude and ill-informed. The biggest beef against Hillary, from both the left and the libertarian right and alt-right, was that she was interventionist. Trump has consistently railed against unnecessary foreign interventionism, both as a candidate and as a private citizen.

I never viewed that as being particularly heartfelt. Like his punchlines about lowering insurance deductibles and defending SS, Medicare, and Medicaid, the 'America First' routine struck me as saying what people wanted to hear. But it was one of the more consistent leitmotifs of his campaign. He's revealed that he was more interested in the political advantage of appearing 'strong and decisive' than in any strategy, principle, or public purpose. Those pictures made me sad, so we're launching missiles isn't something a president says.

He's found some surprising support for this from unexpected quarters (and some unsurprising support, from guys like McCain and Graham, who tend to support military action). But his supporters on the alt-right and anti-establishment conservative branches are furious at him. I sort of admire them for sticking to their guns instead of blindly following him.
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Ellrod

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« Reply #23 on: Apr 09, 2017, 12:12PM »

Time to strike up the band.

Gimme an F...
Gimme a I...
Gimme a S...
Gimme a H...

What's that spell?
What's that spell?
What's that spell?
What's that spell?
What's that spell?

Yeah, c'mon on all you big strong men
Uncle Sam needs your help again
He's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in Vietnam
So put down your books and pick up a gun
We're gonna have a whole lot of fun

And it's 1, 2, 3, what're we fighting for?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn
Next stop is vietnam
And it's 5, 6, 7, open up the pearly gates
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! We're all gonna die

Well c'mon generals, let's move fast
Your big chance has come at last
Gotta go out and get those Reds
The only good Commie is one who's dead
And you know that peace can only be won
When we've blown 'em all to kingdom come

Chorus

Well c'mon on Wall Street
Don't be slow
Why this is war a-go-go
There's plenty good money to be made
By supplin' the Army with the tools of the trade
Just hope and pray that if we drop the bomb
They drop it on-the Vietcong
Chorus

Well c'mon mothers throughout this land
Pack your boys off to Vietnam
C'mon pops, don't hesitate
Send 'em off before it's too late
Be the first one on your block to have your boy come home in a box

And it's 1, 2, 3, what're we fighting for?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn.
...
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robcat2075

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« Reply #24 on: Apr 09, 2017, 02:18PM »

I suppose at $1 million apiece, 59 cruise missiles is war on the cheap since losing even one bomber in such an attack would be several times that cost, aside from all the complications of a pilot either being killed or captured.

The Russians say only 23 hit their targets. If that's true, why is that number so low?

Do some actually get shot down?  Do they get confused and wander off course?

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Robert Holmén

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BGuttman
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« Reply #25 on: Apr 09, 2017, 04:00PM »

I'd discount the Russian statement a little; they would tend to exaggerate in their favor.

I hope there is some surveillance from a spy plane showing what was hit; and possibly a few live pictures from the missiles as they approached target (remember the ones from Iraq?).

Since a Cruise is a relatively slow weapon, it could be stopped with a Russian equivalent of the Patriot system (and I'm sure they have one).
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #26 on: Apr 09, 2017, 04:11PM »

So what do you think Trump has in mind ordering a United States Navy strike group to move towards the western Pacific Ocean near the Korean Peninsula? If it is just a show of force because of US growing concerns about North Korea's advancing weapons program, I think it is a crazy move that will cause Korea to do the same thing. Especially as Kim Jong-un and Bashar al-Assad have reportedly exchanged pledges of friendship and cooperation.

I am not so sure I fear Kim Jong-un's finger on the button any more than I do Trump's. They are both crazies.
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« Reply #27 on: Apr 09, 2017, 06:46PM »


Here's a map. At 50,000 feet the horizon is 274 miles away but you have to get a lot closer than the horizon to get good spy pics of something. i dunno...

But look at what a mess Syria is.  At least four powers vying for it.  The territory of the Islamic State looks more like a gerrymandered congressional district.

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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #28 on: Apr 09, 2017, 09:00PM »

The hypocrisy of the Republican party on this issue is laughable.

Obama tried to get Congressional approval to intervene in Syria. He was turned down. And now Trump orders intervention (bypassing the Congress altogether) and the Republican leadership is all gung ho in support of his actions.

And Trump? He consistently took the stance for non-intervention while Obama was in office. And now he flip flops. Why? He is trying to divert attention from the distractions of the investigation into the relationship between his campaign staff and the Russians.

What is almost as troubling as Trump's actions is the fact that so many of his supporters are okay with everything he does. Suckers.
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« Reply #29 on: Apr 10, 2017, 01:18AM »

I don't want to hurt you feelings and patriotism, but here it is(confirming my doubts):

http://www.neonnettle.com/news/2047-wikileaks-documents-prove-syria-chemical-attack-orchestrated-by-us
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« Reply #30 on: Apr 10, 2017, 01:24AM »

I don't want to hurt you feelings and patriotism, but here it is(confirming my doubts):

http://www.neonnettle.com/news/2047-wikileaks-documents-prove-syria-chemical-attack-orchestrated-by-us

I'm not sure how that article would confirm your doubts, or anything else. Perhaps you could copy and paste the persuasive evidence from the text for me.
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bonenick

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« Reply #31 on: Apr 10, 2017, 02:26AM »

I will just...



In the meantime I'll stand by my opinion that US warlords are just trying to replicate the Irak script...
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« Reply #32 on: Apr 10, 2017, 06:01AM »

In the meantime I'll stand by my opinion that US warlords are just trying to replicate the Irak script...
I wish trump showed that type of foresight and planning... Even the coordination to get the UN behind us, per bad intel report, is likely beyond his administration. His justification for this attack was pretty empty, and his where we go from here even moreso.
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bonenick

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« Reply #33 on: Apr 10, 2017, 06:14AM »

I wish trump showed that type of foresight and planning... Even the coordination to get the UN behind us, per bad intel report, is likely beyond his administration. His justification for this attack was pretty empty, and his where we go from here even moreso.

We all do. I was never a Trump or Clinton supporter, but hoped that Trump (Even though I am not american) would do as he promised regarding US foreign policies. Unfortunately that didn't last long.
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« Reply #34 on: Apr 10, 2017, 06:31AM »

God only knows what the real facts are, but I think it is a classic case of tail wags dog
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« Reply #35 on: Apr 10, 2017, 07:25AM »

Anyone know what the Reichstagg fire was?
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« Reply #36 on: Apr 10, 2017, 07:26AM »

I don't want to hurt you feelings and patriotism, but here it is(confirming my doubts):

http://www.neonnettle.com/news/2047-wikileaks-documents-prove-syria-chemical-attack-orchestrated-by-us


Other absolutely reliable story on neonettle...Madonna Tried Witchcraft To Make Trump Lose Election

(Spoiler: deceptively edited quotes are used to create that story)



and Buckingham Palace Admits That Queen Elizabeth 'Is Not Human' Statement released that she's a Reptilian Shapeshifter




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Robert Holmén

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bonenick

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« Reply #37 on: Apr 10, 2017, 07:30AM »

Anyone know what the Reichstagg fire was?

I know...a Bulgarian politic was accused then..but what's the connection? I don't get it. Yes the neonwhatever site is far from genuine, I reckon. But that doesn't change my opinion on the subject and the regrets about Trumpet volatile "position". He is not more than a front face puppet. Pitiful.
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« Reply #38 on: Apr 10, 2017, 07:44AM »

I can't take any website seriously when it links stories alleging pedophile rings in Washington.

 Yeah, RIGHT.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #39 on: Apr 10, 2017, 08:51AM »

I can't take any website seriously when it links stories alleging pedophile rings in Washington.

 Yeah, RIGHT.

But somebody did.  Remember the pizza parlor shooting? Confused Don't know
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Bruce Guttman
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