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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Trump Launches Tomahawks Against Assad
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« Reply #40 on: Apr 10, 2017, 08:54AM »

But somebody did.  Remember the pizza parlor shooting? Confused Don't know

Hence the basis of fake news really...

The stories are designed to confirm, reinforce, or feed off of already conceived notions of the reader.

Yes the neonwhatever site is far from genuine, I reckon. But that doesn't change my opinion on the subject and the regrets about Trumpet volatile "position". He is not more than a fron face puppet. Pitiful.

ie. It may be fake, but given my opinion, I could see it happening.
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« Reply #41 on: Apr 10, 2017, 09:01AM »

Fake news is a real problem, but that so because of the decline of real investigating journalism (at least in my part of the world). The other issue is all the fake stories our governments like us to believe. Like the Irak strikes, we may not get even a glimpse on the true, before it is too late.

My issue with Mr Trump's and all other similar US strike that it was against all UN regulations, on a unproved so far claim, hasty and leaving a bad taste - like he was fearing that the true reason of this strike may be uncovered before they can do it.

There is no innocent parties in this conflict - Russia, Assad, US, Turkey etc - they all have their own interest in it.

So, I cannot accept the simple view of making the US the big justice giver and all the rest being the naughty kids, needing a slap from his parent...that's so arrogant.
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« Reply #42 on: Apr 10, 2017, 09:24AM »

...I cannot accept the simple view of making the US the big justice giver and all the rest being the naughty kids, needing a slap from his parent...that's so arrogant.

agreed 100%
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #43 on: Apr 10, 2017, 09:43AM »

He is not more than a fron face puppet. Pitiful.

I recommend using his own term for condescension ... sad.
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« Reply #44 on: Apr 10, 2017, 10:17AM »

Fake news is a real problem, but that so because of the decline of real investigating journalism (at least in my part of the world). The other issue is all the fake stories our governments like us to believe. Like the Irak strikes, we may not get even a glimpse on the true, before it is too late.
We suffer from a bit of a different issue in the us, specifically the marketization of news. News isn't just news as it used to be... that was considered a public service, and generally incurred a loss to the company to produce it. Now, news is sold, and actually a profit center. In order to sell, the news it targeted to different audiences, and shaped the way they want to see it. The right wing news sources were heavily skewed against Obama per the past 8 years, and already readily blurred the line between lie and truth... so the fake news found fertile ground.

Real news is what it is regardless of your opinion.

My issue with Mr Trump's and all other similar US strike that it was against all UN regulations, on a unproved so far claim, hasty and leaving a bad taste - like he was fearing that the true reason of this strike may be uncovered before they can do it.
The second, purely opinion part aside, we know they have previously had chemical weapons in the area and have used them. To "prove" again, is not a short or readily available option given the politics involved. Kinda like the passenger plane shot down over the ukraine... we know it was hit from rebel held territory, using a russian weapon, likely with russian military assistance either in normal operation or at least in training... But russia disputed it, and has power on councils to make the investigation basically moot and never "proven".

Per whether the claims were valid, https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/06/world/middleeast/chemical-attack-syria.html?_r=0
Turkey confirmed it was Sarin before the attack.
Quote
The poison used in the deadly chemical bomb attack in a rebel-held part of northern Syria this week was the banned nerve agent sarin, the Turkish Health Ministry said in a statement on Thursday.

The statement from Turkey, where many of the stricken Syrians were taken after the assault on Tuesday, was the most specific about the cause.

“According to the results of preliminary tests,” the statement said, “patients were exposed to chemical material (Sarin).”


At the same time, use of chemical weapons violates international law, though the enforcement of said law would be crippled because of russia's vote. Much in the same way that although Israel has committed numerous war crimes and atrocities through the years, it has not received international punishment because of US backing and protection. 

So it's against international law while also enforcing international law at the same time.
There is no innocent parties in this conflict - Russia, Assad, US, Turkey etc - they all have their own interest in it.

So, I cannot accept the simple view of making the US the big justice giver and all the rest being the naughty kids, needing a slap from his parent...that's so arrogant.
Trump would have agreed with you... last week. Though in truth, a shot across the bow for breaking multiple international laws... well, if that's arrogant, so is the concept of international law itself. That's nothing more than a joint imposition of multiple countries will/morals/ethics over another country or countries.

Trump's action is long overdue, even per international law. The biggest difficulty I find with it, is what is the purpose? Trump got emotional watching the news, so he unleashed his military on another country? Is there a strategy or end-game goal?
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« Reply #45 on: Apr 10, 2017, 10:37AM »

I don't get it. Yes the neonwhatever site is far from genuine, I reckon. But that doesn't change my opinion on the subject and the regrets about Trumpet volatile "position". He is not more than a front face puppet. Pitiful.

The point is that you put the goofy web site out as proof, or at least as evidence, and it wasn't very persuasive. You're being a little more forthright now, and admitting that the lack of evidence doesn't change your opinion, which is essentially just what you're inclined to believe.

I don't necessarily buy the official line either, but I'm not going to latch onto some wacko counter-theory because someone said it on the internet.
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« Reply #46 on: Apr 10, 2017, 10:42AM »

I prefer to use my free time on the horn, than investigting stuff, that I have no power to change anyway  :/ I am free to have my own opinion about, the future will only tell whether I was wrong or write to doubt the official US story.

Using that website was a mistake, I am not afraid to admit that.
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« Reply #47 on: Apr 10, 2017, 10:46AM »

The point is that you put the goofy web site out as proof, or at least as evidence, and it wasn't very persuasive. You're being a little more forthright now, and admitting that the lack of evidence doesn't change your opinion, which is essentially just what you're inclined to believe.
 
I don't necessarily buy the official line either, but I'm not going to latch onto some wacko counter-theory because someone said it on the internet.

Even more importantly:
 ... or because it's satisfying or affirming.
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« Reply #48 on: Apr 10, 2017, 11:00AM »

Bonenick, please don't assume that your opinion isn't welcome, or that any challenge to the 'official American narrative' is unwelcome. Most of the Americans here are skeptical of the official line. Still, the counter-narrative has to make at least a little sense.

The breakdown of this requires some understanding of US politics, and of Trump.

Trump does not have a 'statesman' mode--it's all about politics, and all about his image. He was a relentless foe of Syrian intervention, including after the previous gas attacks. But he doesn't like being put on the spot--he wants to create the image of being able to 'handle' things that are screwed up by Obama. That's why he blamed Obama for not intervening earlier, even though he himself opposed such intervention.

So now he has to do something to save face. Part of the problem is that foreign intervention is very unpopular with his alt-right base. So he fires the missiles (carefully avoiding the runways) and says, "Look, I did something, and Obama didn't." It has the secondary benefit of providing separation between him and Putin.

Did Americans gas those people? Of course not. That would be more underhanded and reprehensible by far than any of the chicanery leading up to the Iraq War, and would involve enough people to execute that someone would have blown the whistle. Either Assad gassed those people, or as some are saying they bombed a rebel-held Sarin facility.

It would not surprise me if the response was somewhat coordinated between Putin and Trump, including Putin's crocodile tears afterward. We do know that Trump tipped off the enemy through Putin, ahead of the strikes. But it's absurd to guess that the US released the chemical weapons. Trump is getting political backlash from his political base over the missile strike, so the political outcome is not an unalloyed benefit. As a start-to-finish operation, a plan to gas Syrians would carry enormous risk and at best mixed political results. Trump is not trying to get involved overseas to begin with.

My guess is that the gas was released, by accident or design, and Trump tried to make the best of it politically, with no regard to any military strategy or benefit to the American people.
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« Reply #49 on: Apr 10, 2017, 11:15AM »

There are handful of videos going around suggesting that all that histeria about people who supposedly suffered was created by handful of fake sufferers and dead people who are moving, speaking and raising from the death  :/

So anything in this chemical attack seems phoney to me.
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« Reply #50 on: Apr 10, 2017, 11:20AM »

I am free to have my own opinion about, the future will only tell whether I was wrong or write to doubt the official US story.

Using that website was a mistake, I am not afraid to admit that.

Sure.

The key of contention is what is opinion and what is best fact we know?

Per Turkey, the attack was sarin gas. That's not the official US story, that's the report coming from the place were these folks were taken to for treatment.

Now, was trump arrogant? Sure, that's opinion and it's pretty free and open. Opinions vary even more than the people that hold them.
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« Reply #51 on: Apr 10, 2017, 11:32AM »

There are handful of videos going around suggesting that all that histeria about people who supposedly suffered was created by handful of fake sufferers and dead people who are moving, speaking and raising from the death  :/

So anything in this chemical attack seems phoney to me.

You are aware that Syria's major backing country, Russia, has a long documented history of large campaigns to spread false information and attempt to cast doubt on real information? In numerous countries and for numerous causes?

Shoot, that was a big part of how russia just expanded it's own country lines.
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« Reply #52 on: Apr 10, 2017, 11:35AM »

So it is US. We still remember the excuses for Irak and Serbia conflicts...do you?
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« Reply #53 on: Apr 10, 2017, 11:44AM »

So it is US. We still remember the excuses for Irak and Serbia conflicts...do you?
What information about the chemical attack comes from the US?

Sarin is per the health minister of Turkey. The rest of the attack is not in dispute at all as far as I can tell. And well, this country has used and admitted using chemical agents in the past. They also don't dispute that sarin was in the area, just tried to say somehow the rebels obtained it.

The only thing Trump seemed to add to the situation was 59 missiles.
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« Reply #54 on: Apr 10, 2017, 12:12PM »

So it is US. We still remember the excuses for Irak and Serbia conflicts...do you?

Serbia/Bosnia? My recollection is that Serbian aggression, including ethnic cleansing, was pretty well documented  (I recall a Canadian soldier was chained to a chain link gate as a human shield/hostage, for example), and that's why Milosevic was tried for war crimes.

"The only thing Trump seemed to add to the situation was 59 missiles." Trump is in way over his head.
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« Reply #55 on: Apr 10, 2017, 01:22PM »

BoneNick, I understand that you believe some Americans' utter credulity toward the 'official line' makes them suckers. In reality, I don't think many people on this forum fall into that category, but still.

What you haven't explained is how your gullibility for lightly-sourced or poorly-sourced and obviously fake propaganda videos is any sort of improvement over that. You're not more discerning by virtue of rejecting the official line in favor of something even less plausible.

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« Reply #56 on: Apr 10, 2017, 01:51PM »

At this point is difficult to be objectively certain whether these videos are fake or not. I surely wouldn't call any person sucker. That's below the intelectual and emotional level I was brought up to.

But don't forget that where I live, region bombed by the US army are my neighbours. Memory is still vivid. Last week an arrogant US jet pilot was bitten up by a serbian after he boasted in a pub how he bombed these "losers", the serbian.

The Gaddafi US blooper was not that long time ago.

I don't pretend to be objective. But my reaction is surely logical and understandable. I know that many americans would agree, at least in part with me.

I have many american friends, I don't take them for losers or suckers. But I am still surprised how polarized they can be, by becoming partisans of Trump, Clinton or anyone else in Washington...

In my country politician is synonym of criminal and lobyist. I don't think that it is any different in the white house or the Pentagon. So I cannot put my consent to any of them or their actions.

Who is more responsible for the situation in Syria? US, Russia, Turkey or any of the other parties? Difficult to say. Was bombing that airbase an appropriate and timely action? Most probably not. Did the credibility of US because of that improved? Not at all. I am still a bit puzzled of what was the purpose of firing those misiles...Did it fulfill it's purpose? most probably not. But surely it has raised the tension in the region and most porbably will make the situation worse.

These are MY thoughts and my opinion. I don't feel the need to justify it, neither I feel the need someone to approve it. It is just what it is. An opinion.
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« Reply #57 on: Apr 10, 2017, 02:03PM »

Who is more responsible for the situation in Syria? US, Russia, Turkey or any of the other parties? Difficult to say. Was bombing that airbase an appropriate and timely action? Most probably not. Did the credibility of US because of that improved? Not at all. I am still a bit puzzled of what was the purpose of firing those misiles...Did it fulfill it's purpose? most probably not. But surely it has raised the tension in the region and most porbably will make the situation worse.

At its core, syria's civil war is exactly that... an internal war of the country's people against it's leadership, in which the syrian people fight to oust a leader who between him and his father have held power over the country for over 35 years.

Who is more responsible for the situation? A leader that would rather use chemical weapons and barrel bombs to indiscriminately kill his own people rather than step aside, and who has self-admittedly done so in the past?

How does the list of possibly responsible comprise the US, Russia, and Turkey... but not the man at the core of this conflict to start with?

This incident did ultimately start with Assad cracking down on a few youths for anti-establishment graffiti, some of which were then killed in detention, and riots sprang up were more and more were killed. Assad responded with a state of emergency to try to force the rioting down, and they have been going at each other since.


But hey... it's all the US' fault. That surely isn't pretending to be objective in the least.
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« Reply #58 on: Apr 10, 2017, 02:13PM »

Bonenick, I understand your antipathy toward American foreign policy. Certainly we haven't always covered ourselves in glory in your region and elsewhere. I don't agree with you on the Serbian situation, because the Serbian aggression was plain, severe, and unnecessary, and primarily served the political ambitions of a handful of people at the expense of most Serbs as well as of their victims. The evidence of that didn't come entirely or even mostly from Americans.

I agree that the Tomahawk missile launch was largely pointless, except as a political exercise. To the extent there was any strategic value it would have been in chastening and restraining Assad, and I doubt that's going to work. Another side of this, which BvB briefly alluded to in the original post, is that in the days leading up to the attacks, Trump's administration made several statements implying that regime change was no longer a priority and that the focus would be shifted to ISIS. I believe that emboldened Assad. As BvB suggested, it's somewhat analogous to our ambiguous statements leading up to the Kuwait invasion by Iraq--not quite a 'green light', but something like it.

Don't assume that Americans are blindly defending the Trump administration on this, just because we're Americans. I doubt that many people here voted for Trump. Speaking only for myself, my disagreement with you on this is predicated not on 'sticking up for our side' but on the fact that what you're accepting as an alternative explanation is far less plausible than what you're rejecting.

I do understand your point of view here, but I personally try hard not to have any point of view or predisposition that makes me likely to fall for something false.
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« Reply #59 on: Apr 10, 2017, 02:47PM »


How does the list of possibly responsible comprise the US, Russia, and Turkey... but not the man at the core of this conflict to start with?

There's the crux of it. You can be skeptical of American intentions without making an invalid and indefensible dogma out of it. The responsibility for the bombs in Aleppo and elsewhere lies first with the man who's launching them.

The reason the previous admin didn't wade into this is that there really aren't 'good guys' to side with. The supposedly non-Islamist, moderate, pro-democracy resistance actually comprises a continuum from secular, pro-democracy anti-Assad forces to people who are just this side of al Qaeda and ISIS. The purely pro-democracy protesters might be the weakest element, once Assad is gone and the opposition breaks up into factions, some of which might ultimately form coalitions with extremist groups.

When I see al-Nusra and others commit atrocities in this war, I remind myself that these might have been our allies if we'd joined the battle

In addition, you have the mirror version of Iraq, with a minority-controlled dictatorship in charge. The Alawite minority would be impossible to protect in the event of Assad's fall, and they know it. If Assad himself had responded differently at the beginning, showing a willingness to cede personal political power to protect the safety and property of his clan, it could have possibly turned out differently.
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