Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1076132 Posts in 71338 Topics- by 18937 Members - Latest Member: Ethan Limes
Jump to:  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: C-trombone  (Read 2107 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
watermailonman

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sweden
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 1358
"Do your best and then do better"


View Profile WWW
« on: Apr 11, 2017, 01:03PM »

Hello!

I'm asking if any of you have had any experiece with a C -trombone. I happen to own two. They are described as the "Preacher" model or the Conn model 60h, not to be mixed up with the basstrombone with the same model number. I have just discovered that they can be used  as an alto substitute. I have not thought much of these before, but resently discovered they sound really good with a Bach 12E. Any thoughts? Are there more "preacher" models?

/Tom  Hi
Logged

Listen to my playing on soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724
Visit my page at https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic/

Instruments: King 2b+, Kanstul 1570, Kanstul 1662. m-pieces: Bach 6 3/4, Hammond 12 ML, Hammond 20 BL
JohnL
Edge Monster

*
Offline Offline

Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 7155

View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: Apr 11, 2017, 01:18PM »

The Yamaha 350C is similar, but stands in Bb with the an ascending valve to C.

Lots of valve trombones in C in Latin America.
Logged

Question change.
Embrace progress.
Take the time to learn the difference.
SBMaestro

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Apr 28, 2013
Posts: 149

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Apr 11, 2017, 08:29PM »

I have an antique Wurlitzer C/Bb trombone, which was originally built in Czechoslovakia (which is stamped on the horn) and then imported to the U.S. for Wurlitzer.  It's .458" bore, and the rotor is not meant to be changed "on the fly"--instead it has a wingnut-shaped knob similar to that on a garden hose faucet that switches the horn from C to Bb.  The horn has all 7 positions in both C and Bb, but it is very obvious that the tight wrap of the Bb attachment makes the horn very stuffy and resistant to letting air pass through without getting tired.  Granted, it's an antique, but I would assume the Conn 60H "Preacher" model would have been rather similar--it looks nearly identical to one.  I don't know about the current Yamaha C/Bb trombones, but I bought this as a curiosity for not much money, rather than as an actual "player."
Logged
SilverBone
Put the Cool in "Coulisse!"

*
Offline Offline

Location: Portland, OR
Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 3767

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Apr 12, 2017, 12:01AM »

I have a Besson C trombone.  It plays nicely, but I've never had a reason to perform with it.  I think I would break my brain if I tried to play parts written for an Eb alto trombone in alto clef on a C trombone.
Logged

-Howard

The nastiest fellow I've known
Smashed his trombone and ruined its tone.
There's a simple excuse
For his slush pump abuse:
He was born to be bad to the bone.
savio

*
Offline Offline

Location: Norway
Joined: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 5050

View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: Apr 12, 2017, 12:56AM »

I wonder why the trombone is in Bb? C is more logical? Was the old sackbut's in Bb too?

Leif
Logged

Bass Trombone - Conn, Holton
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4467

View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: Apr 12, 2017, 03:30AM »

I wonder why the trombone is in Bb? C is more logical? Was the old sackbut's in Bb too?

Leif

Why would they build trombones in Bb F Eb in 1500?

Good question. The books in my library tell that the ordinay sackbut (actually called trombnoe) was tuned to A.
Bass in E or D, alto In E or D. That is why we often play reanasance musi in 465, the Bb is the an A.
So I play my bass ackbut tuned to modern D and play it as being in Eb.


Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
Pre59

*
Offline Offline

Location: Devon UK
Joined: May 26, 2015
Posts: 474

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Apr 12, 2017, 03:35AM »

I wonder why the trombone is in Bb? C is more logical?

Leif

Listen to recordings of a C Melody saxophone, they're neither one thing of another..
Logged
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12027

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Apr 12, 2017, 05:31AM »

Why would they build trombones in Bb F Eb in 1500?

Good question. The books in my library tell that the ordinay sackbut (actually called trombnoe) was tuned to A.
Bass in E or D, alto In E or D. That is why we often play reanasance musi in 465, the Bb is the an A.
So I play my bass ackbut tuned to modern D and play it as being in Eb.




I think that is the answer.  A was the logical start of the alphabet.  Trombones were in A, which is now Bb.

There is  also an argument that trombones just naturally work well in Bb with the bore diameter usually used, unless you go to big.  That sort of makes sense, but doesn't explain why trumpets and tubas, etc., would also be in Bb. 

There is a US tradition of a Parson's or Preacher's trombone in C.  The reason given is that it would make it easier for unsophisticated musicians to play out of a hymnal.  That doesn't make sense to me on several levels, but I don't have a better theory either. 
Logged

Tim Richardson
JohnL
Edge Monster

*
Offline Offline

Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 7155

View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: Apr 12, 2017, 07:51AM »

Listen to recordings of a C Melody saxophone, they're neither one thing of another..
It is what it is - a C Melody Saxophone. They have their own unique sound, for better or worse.

There is a US tradition of a Parson's or Preacher's trombone in C.  The reason given is that it would make it easier for unsophisticated musicians to play out of a hymnal.  That doesn't make sense to me on several levels, but I don't have a better theory either.
At one time, "triple-key" trumpets (C, Bb, and A) were fairly popular for the same reason. Remember that in the era when preacher trombones were popular, a lot of trombone parts were written in treble clef Bb (having recently transitioned from the American brass band standard of a Bb tenor horn).
Logged

Question change.
Embrace progress.
Take the time to learn the difference.
SBMaestro

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Apr 28, 2013
Posts: 149

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Apr 12, 2017, 07:54AM »

I'm not saying this is the main reason they were built in Bb, but a Bb trombone is the maximum length that gives you 7 positions, and therefore a full chromatic scale without the use of a trigger.
Logged
watermailonman

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sweden
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 1358
"Do your best and then do better"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: Apr 12, 2017, 08:53AM »

I have a Besson C trombone.  It plays nicely, but I've never had a reason to perform with it.  I think I would break my brain if I tried to play parts written for an Eb alto trombone in alto clef on a C trombone.

Actually this is not hard at all if you can read treble clef in C. I often play jazz parts written in treble clef, Aebersold for example.

It turns out this note:  Alto Clef is third position on a C-trombone. Same as    (8:va basso)

Because of this a part that uses alto-clef and sounds in d-major can be read as a 8va basso C-major part if you just imagine it is in treable clef (non transposing). Actually ALL other clefs I can think of are awkward on the c-trombone except the alto-clef.

/Tom
Logged

Listen to my playing on soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724
Visit my page at https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic/

Instruments: King 2b+, Kanstul 1570, Kanstul 1662. m-pieces: Bach 6 3/4, Hammond 12 ML, Hammond 20 BL
BillO
Trying to be better.

*
Online Online

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 2687

View Profile
« Reply #11 on: Apr 12, 2017, 10:01AM »

I'm not saying this is the main reason they were built in Bb, but a Bb trombone is the maximum length that gives you 7 positions, and therefore a full chromatic scale without the use of a trigger.
Depends on how long your arms are.
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
Stewbones43

*
Offline Offline

Location: Somerset U.K.
Joined: Mar 15, 2005
Posts: 2653

View Profile
« Reply #12 on: Apr 12, 2017, 02:23PM »

Just think, if trombones had developed in the key of C all the problems of transposition, bass clef and treble clef (see recent posts -going back about 100 years :/) would be solved/ would never have happened!

Cheers

Stewbones
Logged

Trombone means big trumpet-does that mean it is louder?
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 50519
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: Apr 12, 2017, 02:48PM »

I'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with arm length.

The original trombones were made in the key of A (much like the violas and cellos, whose top string is A).  When the pitch standard changed, the trombone suddenly seemed to be in Bb.  Rather than change the length it was decided to keep it as a Bb instrument.  The rest is inertia.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
BillO
Trying to be better.

*
Online Online

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 2687

View Profile
« Reply #14 on: Apr 12, 2017, 06:43PM »

I'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with arm length.

The original trombones were made in the key of A (much like the violas and cellos, whose top string is A).  When the pitch standard changed, the trombone suddenly seemed to be in Bb.  Rather than change the length it was decided to keep it as a Bb instrument.  The rest is inertia.
I was referring to maximum length that gives you 7 positions.  Longer arms would allow a longer trombone.  It was my was of saying it had nothing to do with length(s).
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
Larry Preston Roberson
*
Offline Offline

Location: Georgia
Joined: May 24, 2016
Posts: 137

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: Jun 06, 2017, 08:42PM »

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,100338.0.html
Logged
kbiggs

*
Offline Offline

Location: Vancouver WA
Joined: Jun 9, 2006
Posts: 1348

View Profile
« Reply #16 on: Jun 07, 2017, 07:15AM »

A lot of early brass scholars (perhaps David Guion or Byron Pillow could address this?) support the idea that the trombone (sacbut, or trombone before about 1750) was a part of the everyday kit of court and town trumpeters. If you disassemble an old natural trumpet (they used to be held together with beeswax), the "yards" or straight tubes of the trumpet are the same length as the slide. It was several steps in development over many years, but it didn't take long for some inventive player or trumpet maker to come up with the slide trumpet or draught trumpet: put a smaller tube inside a larger tube. You can then move the trumpet away from and closer to your body, but it's awkward and you risk hitting your teeth with the trumpet if you're not careful. It's only a few more steps to say, "If we can put one tube inside another, why can't we put two tubes inside two other tubes?" Voila! The instrument is more stable, and you're moving a crook--the hand slide--rather than the whole instrument. That is, you have a trombone (sacbut) in A, and not a trumpet in D or a slide trumpet in D or C.

The pitch and length of the trombone is a confluence of different factors over time: arbitrary labelling (why is A=440 when sometimes people play A=442, or they used to play A=415 or A=465), custom ("We've always built it this way! We're in a guild!"), ergonomics (what's comfortable to hold and use), and aesthetics (what was pleasing to the ears and eyes of late Medieval and Rennaissance Western Europe?).

As Bruce says, the rest is inertia...
Logged

Kenneth Biggs
Bass & tenor trombone
_______________
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened.
  -- Mark Twain
Pages: [1]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: