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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentMouthpieces(Moderators: BGuttman, Doug Elliott) Good MP for switching between bass and tenor
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« on: Apr 15, 2017, 09:41AM »

I am currently doubling on tenor and would like a tenor mouthpiece that is great for switching between bass and tenor.
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« Reply #1 on: Apr 15, 2017, 10:09AM »

There isn't really a mouthpiece that will work on both, unless you compromise pretty heavily on one instrument.
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« Reply #2 on: Apr 15, 2017, 10:16AM »

What he said^^^^

But contact Doug Elliott!
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« Reply #3 on: Apr 15, 2017, 10:19AM »

It really depends on the player, the horns, the genre, and the expectations.
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« Reply #4 on: Apr 15, 2017, 10:33AM »

There are some "tweener" mouthpieces like the Bach 3G or Schilke 57 that can work, but they are neither fish nor fowl.

A wide but shallow mouthpiece may fill the bill on tenor like the Alessi 1 series.

If you are a High Schooler, look at a large tenor mouthpiece for your tenor work and keep the bass one.  I would guess a 4G or so sized mouthpiece.

I'm not in school any more (haven't been for umm... years).  I use a 1 1/2 G on bass and a 4G on tenor.  If the tenor is small bore it's a 4C.
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« Reply #5 on: Apr 15, 2017, 11:24PM »

Let me rephrase: large tenor mouthpieces that are good for someone who doubles on bass
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« Reply #6 on: Apr 16, 2017, 12:10AM »

I play a 3AL because the rim is large and comfortable. It's really up to you though, some bass doublers can play smaller rims (5 size, for instance) totally fine. What are you playing now?
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« Reply #7 on: Apr 16, 2017, 03:23AM »

I don't really understand this question whenever it pops up. Why not use the bass mouthpiece you sound best with on bass, and your favorite tenor mouthpiece on tenor? Why compromise? Find what sounds and plays best on each, make sure you have a distinct sound concept in mind,  and your chops will adapt to whatever you put on your face.

Also, you might find that an extremely deep cupped but tenor-rimmed mouthpiece works great on bass for earlier or lighter rep that needs a lighter bass sound and doesn't go low.
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« Reply #8 on: Apr 16, 2017, 04:23AM »

I don't really understand this question whenever it pops up. Why not use the bass mouthpiece you sound best with on bass, and your favorite tenor mouthpiece on tenor? Why compromise? Find what sounds and plays best on each, make sure you have a distinct sound concept in mind,  and your chops will adapt to whatever you put on your face.

Agreed!^^^
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« Reply #9 on: Apr 16, 2017, 05:14AM »

Doug Elliott suggested my usual bass rim on a smaller cup.  Works great on my King 4B.
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« Reply #10 on: Apr 16, 2017, 08:25AM »

Doug Elliott suggested my usual bass rim on a smaller cup.  Works great on my King 4B.

This is also the basis of the JA1 (Alessi) series.  Joe uses a very large rim on a shallow cup.

I will repeat that if you only want one mouthpiece for bass and tenor you probably want a "tweener" like a 3G (or Aidan's 3AL) but it's kinda deep for a tenor and kinda shallow for a bass.  But you could play all the stuff a typical High Schooler needs to be able to play.  But if you need high range on tenor and low range on bass, you really should use a proper mouthpiece on each.  As I suggested, a 4G on large bore tenor, a 4C on small bore tenor, and a 1 1/2 G on bass.
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« Reply #11 on: Apr 16, 2017, 12:06PM »

When I was a trumpet player, mostly playing piccolo and Baroque trumpet, I had a hell of a time switching mouthpieces. But i stopped playing trumpet for various reasons in about 1985 or so and took up trombone in 1991, getting teaching degree for trombone and euphonium in 1996, then pretty much stopped playing tenor bone and only did bass.

I took a break for over three years and started again in November 2016, chucked the Bachs I always hated and have a lovely Yamaha 822G and a Rath R400 for doubling. I also chucked the old Bach 1 1/2GM I always hated and have been searching since. I've landed with a Wedge S59 for most stuff and a Wedge 1 1/2G for high stuff, like when I'm playing a 2nd part now and again in a Big Band, when the rest is bass stuff.

I had a Bach 6 1/2A for my old Bach 42, which I never liked, but then I refused all tenor gigs at the time after getting my diploma. But now I know I'll be playing 3rd bone in a Big Band starting in the fall - I play bass in another Big Band now - so I've started looking for "the" tenor mp. I've gone through a couple of Wedge mps which I've sent back. Nice, that you can try them out and if they don't work, just send them back. I now play a Bousfield S4 that works really well with the Rath R400 large bore tenor. And ... more important to this thread, I can switch any time between tenor and bass with their respective mouthpieces! I had not expected that. Actually, give me 15 seconds to play a couple arpeggios and I'm good to go. So I'm fortunate, that my sensitivity to mouthpiece changes on the trumpet form way back then did NOT transfer over to the trombones.
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« Reply #12 on: Apr 17, 2017, 03:01AM »

It depends on how good bass trombone and how tenor trombone you want to play. It is possible to play a basstrombone with a 4G, and possible to play a tenor on the same mpc. It will not be the bass trombone sound, but it may work in many playing situations. Not all. There are some strong players using 4G on tenor. Not many. One solution is to use the same rim on different underpart, works for some. The best doublers use different mouthpieces all together, using more more practising hours.
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« Reply #13 on: Apr 17, 2017, 04:22AM »

To get a characteristic sound on any given instrument you have to get an appropriate equipment and find the best approach. Most of the time we need to let us the sound lead to make equipment decisions.

If you are a soloist, you can do many atypical stuff, it is about your sound. But if you have to fit into a section you have to get that typical for the given instrument.

Playing a trombone cup and rim on a trumpet works for some like Wycliffe Gordon, but he will have quite a hard time to fit with that into a trumpet section. Same applies to all kind of tbones. I am into doubling too, so I am looking up to people like James Morisson and Trombone Shorty for how they do it. I am sure there are plenty of appropriate examples in tbone worlds of doublers on both tenor and bass. Look what they do. I bet that you'll have hard time to find a cat playing both instrument on the same mouthpiece, especially if you hold 1st chair in a tenor section.
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« Reply #14 on: Apr 17, 2017, 04:36AM »

I don't really understand this question whenever it pops up. Why not use the bass mouthpiece you sound best with on bass, and your favorite tenor mouthpiece on tenor? Why compromise? Find what sounds and plays best on each, make sure you have a distinct sound concept in mind,  and your chops will adapt to whatever you put on your face.

Also, you might find that an extremely deep cupped but tenor-rimmed mouthpiece works great on bass for earlier or lighter rep that needs a lighter bass sound and doesn't go low.

I agree. I think certain players are looking for an easy way to do this. it takes work to be an excellent doubler. Practice.
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« Reply #15 on: Apr 17, 2017, 08:24AM »

It is not really helping you to know what I do, but I play bass trombone on a mpc like 1 1/G large tenor like 5G small tenor on like 11C tuba on like 18.

That is about typically for many doublers.
I have tried to find short cuts, but for me there is non.
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« Reply #16 on: Apr 17, 2017, 08:26AM »

I don't really understand this question whenever it pops up. Why not use the bass mouthpiece you sound best with on bass, and your favorite tenor mouthpiece on tenor? Why compromise? Find what sounds and plays best on each, make sure you have a distinct sound concept in mind,  and your chops will adapt to whatever you put on your face.

Also, you might find that an extremely deep cupped but tenor-rimmed mouthpiece works great on bass for earlier or lighter rep that needs a lighter bass sound and doesn't go low.

Agreed... personally, I find that doing two things helps me play better on each respective instrument:
1) Seeing it as a DIFFERENT instrument - bass trombone to me plays quite a bit differently from small or large bore tenor, and from my experience it sound better to get a sort of "fat, bouncy" sound concept on bass. Helps me support my air all around the horn.
2) Finding the horn/mouthpiece combo that seems to fit both my sound concept AND is comfortable as easy as possible to play on, then practicing on that until I'm at thepoint I want to be at.

Pretty simple tips! That's not to say you SHOULDN'T use one mouthpiece if that's really your thing. If it's good, it's good! Good!
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« Reply #17 on: Apr 17, 2017, 10:04AM »

I don't think anybody's literally suggesting the "same mouthpiece" but a lot of players find that using the "same rim" or close to it allows much easier doubling if you use the rim size that works best on the larger instrument, with a shallower cup for the smaller instrument.  That's not the best solution for everybody but it definitely works.
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« Reply #18 on: Apr 17, 2017, 11:13AM »

Since the kid is in high school...

Bach 5G on large bore tenor.

Bach 1 1/2G on bass trombone.

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« Reply #19 on: Apr 17, 2017, 01:33PM »

I'm in a similar position.  I've been playing bass trombone since my first Year in high school and haven't played tenor (besides marching band) since junior high.  When I first started on trombone, I played on a 6.5AL throughout my first and second year before I went to a Schilke 51 (5G size) for a large bore with F attachment in junior high school.  I use a Schilke 59 on bass trombone  (1.25G size) and its what works best for me.  As for tenor, experiment with different sizes to see which works best.  Good luck on your search!
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« Reply #20 on: Apr 18, 2017, 12:14PM »

I double on bass, .547, .525 and .508 instruments and use a different mouthpiece for each. What I've personally found success with is using mouthpieces that have rims with a similar contour and bite. Although they are all different sizes, appropriate for the individual horn, I find that having the rim similarities described above makes for easier transitions because they all interact with my facial tissue in the same way.

Maybe this is all in my head, but it definitely works for me.
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« Reply #21 on: Apr 18, 2017, 12:25PM »

I find that similar profiles (not necessarily sizes) help, but not necessarily same cup designs and volumes. In other words, similar shaped rims often reduce time to get used to and facilitate the switch. This is not a necessity, but it is helpful. You can get used to different styles of rims, but the risk of inconsistent playing is bigger, especially if you switch instruments during the same gig.

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« Reply #22 on: Apr 18, 2017, 01:00PM »

I find that similar profiles (not necessarily sizes) help, but not necessarily same cup designs and volumes. In other words, similar shaped rims often redice time to get used to and facilitate the switch. This is not a necessity, but it is helpful. You can used to different styles of rims, but the risk of inconsistent playing is bigger, especially if you switch instruments during the same gig.

Yes! This!
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« Reply #23 on: Apr 18, 2017, 09:18PM »

The right mouthpiece for switching is actually three things...

1) the right mouthpiece for you and your tenor

2) the right mouthpiece for you and your bass

3) enough practice on both to get the doubling chops needed to, well, double
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« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2017, 09:38AM »

Go with what works and Practice ,Practice, Practice
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« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2017, 02:13PM »

The right mouthpiece for switching is actually three things...

1) the right mouthpiece for you and your tenor

2) the right mouthpiece for you and your bass

3) enough practice on both to get the doubling chops needed to, well, double

Absolutely. Works for any doubling pair.
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« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2017, 08:52PM »

I don't really understand this question whenever it pops up. Why not use the bass mouthpiece you sound best with on bass, and your favorite tenor mouthpiece on tenor? Why compromise? Find what sounds and plays best on each, make sure you have a distinct sound concept in mind,  and your chops will adapt to whatever you put on your face.

Also, you might find that an extremely deep cupped but tenor-rimmed mouthpiece works great on bass for earlier or lighter rep that needs a lighter bass sound and doesn't go low.

This approach works for some, and it definitely was OK for me when I was in high school. I now use Doug's approach of 'same rim' at least for my small bore big band and large bore and alto. The 106 rim I play on is fairly large, bordering on small bass rim size, with the cup matching the instrument. I would never have used this approach if I were younger or if Doug hadn't had me try it and it works for me. The one time I had to play bass I played on a fairly large rim, and it didn't bother me terribly.
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« Reply #27 on: Jun 01, 2017, 05:56AM »

I don't really understand this question whenever it pops up. Why not use the bass mouthpiece you sound best with on bass, and your favorite tenor mouthpiece on tenor? Why compromise? Find what sounds and plays best on each, make sure you have a distinct sound concept in mind,  and your chops will adapt to whatever you put on your face.

Also, you might find that an extremely deep cupped but tenor-rimmed mouthpiece works great on bass for earlier or lighter rep that needs a lighter bass sound and doesn't go low.
I've found this is what works for me as well.   
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« Reply #28 on: Jun 02, 2017, 01:54AM »

I have gone through different modes when trying to find shortcuts, so have many of my friend and students.
I have even played the tuba with a basstrombone rim, tenor with a basstrombone rim. Lots of younger players tried the same rim on bass and tenor, it does work up to a point. No, it is not a common way if you like to play bass and tenor seriously. Sometimes you can get by playing basstrombone parts on a Bach 42 with a 4G mouthpiece. And maybe you can do that good. Even playing basstrombone parts on a King 2B is possble in emergency situations.
Many players use the same rim for small and large tenor and alto, that can be done with big succses.

Playing tenor and bass with the same rim is something many players tried.

Very few players continou doing that, almost non do that more than it takes to find that it does not really work for them.

But, if you like to use the tenor as your main instrument and do a little basstrombone playing, not so serious, you can use the same rim anyway, but you probably not get a good advise for mpc like that on this forum.
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