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Author Topic: Heresy! Pure Heresy!  (Read 3182 times)
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RBWatkin
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« Reply #20 on: Feb 02, 2017, 12:45PM »

I believe that being a student of his would involve buying into his philosophy of trumpet playing in a deeply committed way. He certainly is a charismatic guy and can sell his points quite well.

Identifying with any great instructor is a matter of faith and buying into his methods. Most students would probably progress well under any system, so long as they believed in it and practiced hard at it's tenets.

...Geezert

I think it's more the instructors role to identify with the student.  Most students might progress well under one system, but not all. I believe very best teachers are people who can recognise the individuality in the playing of others.  Just my views, and I'm happy to concede they may not be correct!

He's obviously a real character who's had great success with his ideas so it all has great value.

All the best,

Rich.
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Geezerhorn

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« Reply #21 on: Feb 02, 2017, 02:12PM »

Did you watch to the end? Amazing last statement...
I enjoyed him, interesting ideas, some challenging of received brass wisdom. Other time just good common sense. Thanks for the link.


Yes I did; some opera reference in answer to a question. I didn't get the reference, but no matter. Was that important?

...Geezer
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« Reply #22 on: Feb 02, 2017, 02:24PM »

I believe that being a student of his would involve buying into his philosophy of trumpet playing in a deeply committed way. He certainly is a charismatic guy and can sell his points quite well.

Identifying with any great instructor is a matter of faith and buying into his methods. Most students would probably progress well under any system, so long as they believed in it and practiced hard at it's tenets.

...Geezert

I think it's more the instructors role to identify with the student.  Most students might progress well under one system, but not all. I believe very best teachers are people who can recognise the individuality in the playing of others.  Just my views, and I'm happy to concede they may not be correct!

He's obviously a real character who's had great success with his ideas so it all has great value.

All the best,

Rich.

Hey Rich, nice to see you posting in this lion's den !!  :D :D

Chris Stearn
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RBWatkin
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« Reply #23 on: Feb 03, 2017, 01:59AM »

I couldn't help myself! I know this is off topic ... but how do I get those brackets around quotations??

Rich.
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blast

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« Reply #24 on: Feb 03, 2017, 02:57AM »

I couldn't help myself! I know this is off topic ... but how do I get those brackets around quotations??

Rich.

Now you have exposed my weakness... I can talk trombones all day ( you know that) but the technical stuff....  Eeek! Eeek!

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #25 on: Feb 03, 2017, 03:40AM »

I couldn't help myself! I know this is off topic ... but how do I get those brackets around quotations??

Rich.

If you look at the post you want to quote, you will see a button on the top right called "Quote".  Press that and a response block will open with the post at the top enclosed in a pair of tags "quote" and "/quote" in square braces.  You can type what you want below the quote (or above it if you go to the left of the first square brace).  Be careful not to mess with the tags, or the quote won't work properly (I can't even count the number of times I've fixed quotes).

If you already have the response block open and you just want to quote something, pressing the 2nd button from the right (looks like a  cartoon dialog balloon) will place a pair of quote tags and you just paste in what you want to quote (or type it if you have to).  Hope this helps.

Now I wish I could play bass trombone as well as Chris, but that's another matter entirely... ;-)
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« Reply #26 on: Feb 03, 2017, 05:38AM »

Thanks for the link - awesome ideas. They go against almost everything I "learned" as a trumpet player, most of which I discarded learning trombone 25 years ago. And from that standpoint, the thread title "Heresey! Pure Heresey! is spot on and much of it stuff I'd worked out. Sound, sound, sound. Thanks agin!
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« Reply #27 on: Feb 03, 2017, 03:05PM »

I have been thinking about this idea of playing at "the top of your pitch center". The more I think about how the "taper" was described in the video the less i think i understand.

If I think about it, I can make sense from playing low on the pitch center because to do that it implies you should relax into the sound and blow freely with minimal tension. I dont understand the benefit to playing high on the pitch center because it would surely be the opposite of what i just described? If I try to play high on the pitch center it is a lot of work, and as we heard in the video, really the more you try to manipulate your playing, the more you are just fighting yourself. For me it creates a much thinner sound with less resonance.

I liked some of the descriptions mentioned about playing high on the pitch center, I think "floating" was the word used specifically but in reality I dont see that happening. Can anyone who plays high on the pitch center elaborate? And is there anyone who understood the idea of the "taper" a bit better than me? I cannot for the life of me figure out how if you relaxed into a note and just "let go" the pitch would find the sweet spot by going higher.
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« Reply #28 on: Feb 03, 2017, 03:22PM »

BBB,

To me vibrant sound is a better represantation of that. Think Maurice Murphy, Allen Vizzutti, Fred Mills, Doc Severinsen in the trumpet world. Often "sitting on the pitch" results in playing low on the pitch, which makes it dark, but also often liveless.

Besides, if anything better be sharp. Aurally being slightly sharp is less audible than slightly flat.

Play there, where it sound best, or on the sweet spot, as some other brass players like to say. Even if this is not exactly where the pitch should be, on trobmone is easy - just move to slide accordingly. On valve instruments is a little more delicate.
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bigbassbone1

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« Reply #29 on: Feb 03, 2017, 05:20PM »

BBB,

To me vibrant sound is a better represantation of that. Think Maurice Murphy, Allen Vizzutti, Fred Mills, Doc Severinsen in the trumpet world. Often "sitting on the pitch" results in playing low on the pitch, which makes it dark, but also often liveless.

Besides, if anything better be sharp. Aurally being slightly sharp is less audible than slightly flat.

Play there, where it sound best, or on the sweet spot, as some other brass players like to say. Even if this is not exactly where the pitch should be, on trobmone is easy - just move to slide accordingly. On valve instruments is a little more delicate.


Yeah by the sounds of it, It sounds like it could be one of those areas where trumpet just does it differently.... i dunno.
Just to be clear(er)  :D Im not talking about playing in a pitch center where the pitch is aurally noticeably out of tune, I do know that it is supposedly harder to hear a note as out of tune if its slightly high. I guess i mean that i just dont see how you could possible find that "sweet spot" by using a concept of playing high on the pitch. Im still waiting for responses on this, but i am skeptical that there are any players here who when they "let go" and relax the tone to find the sweet spot their pitch goes up.

Im not sure that sitting low on the pitch makes it sound lifeless if that is where you are most relaxed and that is where you find the sweet spot. The more relaxed you are, the more resonant the sound is going to be surely? (Of course to a point, im not talking about extremes!) And by relaxing or letting go, whatever you want to call it I dont understand how that would taper the pitch up.
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« Reply #30 on: Feb 03, 2017, 07:06PM »

There was a discussion some months back involving a professional female trombonist who talked about playing high on the pitch.  There were some other examples cited of other pros saying something similar. Not sure if this was all in the jazz/pop vein or if it carried over to classical styles.

I personally don't have a real opinion because id need a  better sense of Intonation to distinguish the fine hairs they must be talking about.
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« Reply #31 on: Feb 04, 2017, 12:46AM »

If you look at the post you want to quote, you will see a button on the top right called "Quote".  Press that and a response block will open with the post at the top enclosed in a pair of tags "quote" and "/quote" in square braces.  You can type what you want below the quote (or above it if you go to the left of the first square brace).  Be careful not to mess with the tags, or the quote won't work properly (I can't even count the number of times I've fixed quotes).

If you already have the response block open and you just want to quote something, pressing the 2nd button from the right (looks like a  cartoon dialog balloon) will place a pair of quote tags and you just paste in what you want to quote (or type it if you have to).  Hope this helps.

Now I wish I could play bass trombone as well as Chris, but that's another matter entirely... ;-)

Ahhhh, thanks very much. I was trying to do it on my phone where the quote option doesn't exist. 
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« Reply #32 on: Feb 04, 2017, 01:01AM »

Basically this is about semantics, but also about the role of every instrument in an orchestra.

A trumpet is supposed to be bright and brilliant compared to any other brass instrument.

A french horn is supposed to be mellow...and so on. Of course, there are nuances...where trumpet is supposed sound a bit darker, but never like a trombone. If a trombone starts to sound like a trumpet, that would be plain wrong  :/
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« Reply #33 on: Feb 04, 2017, 01:52AM »

Basically this is about semantics, but also about the role of every instrument in an orchestra.

A trumpet is supposed to be bright and brilliant compared to any other brass instrument.

A french horn is supposed to be mellow...and so on. Of course, there are nuances...where trumpet is supposed sound a bit darker, but never like a trombone. If a trombone starts to sound like a trumpet, that would be plain wrong  :/

If you record a trombone and wind it up to double speed it sounds just like a trumpet... except the articulations are odd sounding. Good sounds are interesting... far too many uninteresting trombone sounds around these days.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #34 on: Feb 04, 2017, 02:04AM »


Yeah by the sounds of it, It sounds like it could be one of those areas where trumpet just does it differently.... i dunno.
Just to be clear(er)  :D Im not talking about playing in a pitch center where the pitch is aurally noticeably out of tune, I do know that it is supposedly harder to hear a note as out of tune if its slightly high. I guess i mean that i just dont see how you could possible find that "sweet spot" by using a concept of playing high on the pitch. Im still waiting for responses on this, but i am skeptical that there are any players here who when they "let go" and relax the tone to find the sweet spot their pitch goes up.

Im not sure that sitting low on the pitch makes it sound lifeless if that is where you are most relaxed and that is where you find the sweet spot. The more relaxed you are, the more resonant the sound is going to be surely? (Of course to a point, im not talking about extremes!) And by relaxing or letting go, whatever you want to call it I dont understand how that would taper the pitch up.

Harold Nash was principal trombone at Covent Garden and professor of trombone at the Royal Academy of Music. He used to make new pupils pull their tuning slides out at least an inch and lip the note back up to tune. It sounds odd, but his students included some of the finest players ever to work in the UK.... people like Lance Green and Bob Hughes.... Bob is still the gold standard in bass trombone sound here in the UK.... it's not about tension... it was Harold's way of making a student aware of an ability to manipulate pitch, and with it, focus sound. I don't know if he did that with all students. If you get it, you get an alive sound that projects like crazy. If you don't get it, you are in the vast majority of people.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #35 on: Feb 04, 2017, 02:24AM »

Chris, even if you play a soprano trombone and do it right, it won't sound exactly like a trumpet. Sort of like the piccolo trumpet sounds compared to a normal B flat trumpet. It still sound a like trombone to me, just a piccolo trombone alike)

There is always exceptions...for example Wycliffe playing the trumpet on his crossover mouthpiece - it sounds like a trumpet, but it has something of that soprano trombone sound as well. But still sounds amazing. I've been there, where everyone wanted to sound dark, including me. Then a discovered Fred Mills, Vizzuti and Doc. And life forced me out of the symphonic world. So I went the vibrant, top of the pitch kind of conception...Which didn't only change how I sound, but made me gain some range in both extremities.
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« Reply #36 on: Feb 04, 2017, 02:30AM »

Harold Nash was principal trombone at Covent Garden and professor of trombone at the Royal Academy of Music. He used to make new pupils pull their tuning slides out at least an inch and lip the note back up to tune. It sounds odd, but his students included some of the finest players ever to work in the UK.... people like Lance Green and Bob Hughes.... Bob is still the gold standard in bass trombone sound here in the UK.... it's not about tension... it was Harold's way of making a student aware of an ability to manipulate pitch, and with it, focus sound. I don't know if he did that with all students. If you get it, you get an alive sound that projects like crazy. If you don't get it, you are in the vast majority of people.

Chris Stearn


Was that an exercise specifically for pitch awareness or was it actually to develop sound? I suppose from the sounds of it, it works, I have just never personally come across a teacher giving that advice. I have heard and seen well known performers and teachers create intonation exercises by having students play with an unusually placed tuning slide, but not for the purpose of developing sound.

"If you don't get it, you are in the vast majority of people." Im not quite sure what you mean by that. Are you talking about amateur players or professionals? I know for a fact there are plenty of pros who would teach almost the opposite who have alive sounds which also project like crazy. I have been incredibly fortunate to have many lessons with Michael Mulcahy who I have heard mention its a good thing to sit at the bottom of your sound. He has one of the most exciting sounds ive ever heard and definitely has no problem with projection.

I suppose in the end the result is the same, its just different concepts on how to get there. Could you explain what you believe the negatives would be from using the concept of playing low in the pitch center? Perhaps that will help me understand a bit better.
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« Reply #37 on: Feb 04, 2017, 03:02AM »

If you get a really vibrant sound with good intonation, nobody will ever question what you think while doing it. Evenmore, if you can keep a relaxed mind and body while doing it, you'll be the happiest player around. That's all that matters. E everything else is just semantics.
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« Reply #38 on: Feb 04, 2017, 03:12AM »

Is playing high on the pitch about aiming to create more brilliance (while standing in tune), if so, is this flying in the face of playing large bore horns with copper rich bells, and large deep mouthpieces?
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« Reply #39 on: Feb 04, 2017, 04:18AM »

Chris, even if you play a soprano trombone and do it right, it won't sound exactly like a trumpet. Sort of like the piccolo trumpet sounds compared to a normal B flat trumpet. It still sound a like trombone to me, just a piccolo trombone alike)

There is always exceptions...for example Wycliffe playing the trumpet on his crossover mouthpiece - it sounds like a trumpet, but it has something of that soprano trombone sound as well. But still sounds amazing. I've been there, where everyone wanted to sound dark, including me. Then a discovered Fred Mills, Vizzuti and Doc. And life forced me out of the symphonic world. So I went the vibrant, top of the pitch kind of conception...Which didn't only change how I sound, but made me gain some range in both extremities.

Sorry not to be clear... I did this in a studio years ago.... sounded like a trumpet... exactly like a trumpet. I was surprised at the time myself.

Chris Stearn
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